Collins to not Coach the Bulls

[Andrew]

It seems a strange decision to me, bringing back the coach they fired so many years ago.

The Lakers did it with Phil Jackson. Admittedly he's got a more impressive resume than Doug Collins but it's not that strange for a team to reach into their past as they move forward.

As far as Noah is concerned, there's word that the charges could be dropped. I'm sure the Bulls aren't happy about the situation but I don't know that they'd be willing to give up on him so soon.

[shadowgrin]

That was a long time ago. Paxson wasn't even the GM when they fired Collins.

[Andrew]

It should be noted that nothing is official yet, if no agreement has been reached then a potential deal could still fall through. Still, with the language Paxson and Collins have been using it sounds like it's pretty much a done deal with the denials being merely a formality, not unlike the lead up to Donnie Walsh being hired by the Knicks.

[air gordon]

I wonder if they offered Avery Johnson the job and he turned it down. It's just a thought. I think Collins would be a great fit in Chicago because he is almost the complete opposite of Skiles (who was not successful despite the talent at the Bulls). One other side note is Collins came to Washington when they had the number 1 pick and things didn't work out too well with Kwame. Now I'm aware that not even Phil Jackson could get this guy to be a consistent performer, but it will be worth keeping an eye on.

Actually Collins and Skiles are similar in many ways. Both are micro managers, maniacal, and they have a history of their players tuning them out in a few years. However, Collins doesn’t have that label of being a big time hard ass.

I think the Collins hire would be a good one as well. The Bulls players still do need a disciplinarian after witnessing on how unprofessional the team became when Boylan took over. What Collins has going for him is that he does have that "nurturing" side. he'll yell & scream at you but he'll tell you why instead of playing mind games like Skiles would do.

i hope Collins grows the hair again and gets the perm

I think I read somewhere that Avery wasn't interested with coaching the Bulls before the lottery. When the Bulls landed number 1, Avery was interested. If that was the case then they're better off without him.

I know it's his own prerogative to choose a situation that's advantageous for him but I don't think a coach joining a team just because the team has a better chance of winning because of the number 1 pick is the mentality the Bulls would have in their future coach.
It may look like Avery is only in for the easy ride if it comes to winning. A coach must want to coach the team and accept the responsibility of developing that team, with or without a number 1 pick.

Step back and think about it for a second- almost any coach would be more interested in a team w/ a coach vacancy landed the top pick I’m sure D’antoni is kicking himself in the ass right now. not too mention there was no word of Collins wanting the job/the Bulls interviewing him before the lottery selection started

[shadowgrin]

It may look like Avery is only in for the easy ride if it comes to winning.

That's the main point of my post agordy.

What if the team continues its losing ways for a couple of seasons despite the number 1 pick playing for them, there's a big possiblity that Avery will tune out his players and the players tuning out against him, similar to Skiles.

The Mavs held a players only practice, I don't know if it's true but if it is, that pretty much tells something about Avery Johnson's potential relationship with the Bulls players if he is the coach.

[Matthew]

Actually Collins and Skiles are similar in many ways. Both are micro managers, maniacal, and they have a history of their players tuning them out in a few years. However, Collins doesn’t have that label of being a big time hard ass.

But with alot of younger players, being a hard arse of a coach can backfire very quickly. That's why I think Collins would be a good fit in Chicago.

[air gordon]

It may look like Avery is only in for the easy ride if it comes to winning.

That's the main point of my post agordy.

What if the team continues its losing ways for a couple of seasons despite the number 1 pick playing for them, there's a big possiblity that Avery will tune out his players and the players tuning out against him, similar to Skiles.

The Mavs held a players only practice, I don't know if it's true but if it is, that pretty much tells something about Avery Johnson's potential relationship with the Bulls players if he is the coach.

Easy ride… team looks more attractive after landing the 1st pick… whatever. Any coach with “legit” or “non-legit” intentions to take the job that loses for a couple seasons will get the axe regardless who’s tuning out whom.

if you don't believe me, just look at the shelf life of nba coaches

But with alot of younger players, being a hard arse of a coach can backfire very quickly. That's why I think Collins would be a good fit in Chicago.

I think there’s this misnomer that the Bulls are one of the“younger” teams. Most of their rotation players- Hinrich, Deng, Gordon, Gooden, Hughes, Nocioni have at least 4yrs of NBA experience under their belt.

Oh believe me that Collins is a hard-ass, he just isn’t perceived on the same level as Skiles is (which is another argument in itself).

Collins is a screamer, he wants to win every possession. i remember in Sam Smith’s The Jordan Rules there was a story about how during a game Collins was sweating so much through his suit that Jordan had to tell Collins to calm down himself during a timeout lol.

I think what's important but not being discussed is what kind of offense/defense sets will the Bulls run now??? i've read in the Bulls thread on how Skiles plays were unimaginative but i do think any playbook looks like shite when your perimeter plays can't hit shots/there's no post game

[Matthew]

I think there’s this misnomer that the Bulls are one of the“younger” teams. Most of their rotation players- Hinrich, Deng, Gordon, Gooden, Hughes, Nocioni have at least 4yrs of NBA experience under their belt.

But I think Chicago will be in a rebuilding stage after the draft comes and goes. I'd be surprised if either Deng or Gordon are back (let alone both, but I think if one will return it will be Gordon), and they are looking to move Hinrich right? That leaves them with Gooden, Hughes and Nocioni from that list. Hughes and and Gooden were necessary in the Wallace trade to get more minutes for Noah and Thomas whilst also getting rid of Ben Wallaces "cancer" in the locker room.

Oh believe me that Collins is a hard-ass, he just isn’t perceived on the same level as Skiles is (which is another argument in itself).

I wouldn't call him a hard arse. I'd say he's just a very intense and dedicated coach which will probably be a good fit for them.

[Bruce]

Collins is a screamer, he wants to win every possession. i remember in Sam Smith’s The Jordan Rules there was a story about how during a game Collins was sweating so much through his suit that Jordan had to tell Collins to calm down himself during a timeout lol.

This reminds me of the Captain from the Bad Boys movie series. haha

[Andrew]

Despite talk of a supposedly surprising mystery candidate, the latest suggests that it's still going to be Collins.

[kinokong]

[quote="Matthew"][quote]
I'd be surprised if either Deng or Gordon are back (let alone both, but I think if one will return it will be Gordon), and they are looking to move Hinrich right? [\quote]

deng will probably be back.... giving up on him rite now would be paxson admitting he probably screwed up not giving him up for kobe.... plus deng isn't a half bad player.... probably a lamar odom type where he thrives as the 3rd type..... it's funny though to see the same players that could have helped the bulls now are at other teams due to poor management..... the same with phx....

[Modifly]

So they finally found a coach.. damn that took them long, still, it's a very important decision so I'm not surprised at all. Besides, the Suns haven't even got one..

[shadowgrin]

Steve Nash as player-coach.

[Andrew]

So they finally found a coach.. damn that took them long

Not really, Boylan was dismissed less than two months ago. They could have easily spun out the search for a new coach for a lot longer.

[Sauru]

I'd be surprised if either Deng or Gordon are back (let alone both, but I think if one will return it will be Gordon), and they are looking to move Hinrich right? [\quote]

deng will probably be back.... giving up on him rite now would be paxson admitting he probably screwed up not giving him up for kobe

if i recall paxson would have given deng in a heart beat, it was kobe saying he didnt want to go to the bulls if they had to give away thier entire team just to get him

[Andrew]

Exactly. Everyone assumes that Paxson backed out of the deal and therefore chose the current core over Kobe, but that may not have been the case. For all the speculation that Kobe would be dealt, if not during the offseason then before the deadline, I'm inclined to believe cooler heads prevailed within the Lakers organisation and they backed away from making a deal.

[air gordon]

Matthew

I believe there are going to be some changes made but regardless who is moved/stayed, the team should make the playoffs and possibly be competing for the central division title. That’s hardly rebuilding

What is your definition of rebuilding and why would you be surprised if Gordon/Deng are back? The Bulls can match any offer they get and after the seasons they both had, no team should offer either player 5yr/50mil (which Pax offered before start of this season).

Hughes and Gooden may be viewed as necessary “evils” in the trade but Gooden is easily the team’s best post player and should be playing a lot of minutes whether it be at PF or C. The backcourt will be crowded but Hughes should be a rotation player since he and Gordon are the only perimeter players that can create shots for themselves.

I can’t confirm it, but there is good reason to think Hinrich would be traded if Rose is drafted

I’m interested to hear exactly where you draw the line between being intense/dedicated/etc and being a hard ass. Personally i think it's all the same. almost all the coaches in the nba are hard asses, especially the successful ones

I wonder what the hold up is- the Bulls should just go after Flip Saunders

[shadowgrin]

I wonder what the hold up is- the Bulls should just go after Flip Saunders

Maybe that's the hold up. They delay going for Collins because they maybe thinking about Saunders.

[Jeffx]

I wonder what the hold up is- the Bulls should just go after Flip Saunders

Maybe that's the hold up. They delay going for Collins because they maybe thinking about Saunders.

Hey, WFAN(660 AM) just announced Collins withdrew his name from the Bulls job. WTF?

[The X]

I wonder what the hold up is- the Bulls should just go after Flip Saunders

Maybe that's the hold up. They delay going for Collins because they maybe thinking about Saunders.

Hey, WFAN(660 AM) just announced Collins withdrew his name from the Bulls job. WTF?

he probably didn't want it to look like he had job & then have it pulled out from under him....either way, good move for Bulls....I think Collins was the wrong choice....

[Andrew]

According to this article, Collins decided against coaching the Bulls because he's concerned that it might ruin his friendship with Jerry Reinsdorf. Perhaps he wasn't all that keen to return to the sideline after all, his interest only being midly piqued by the Bulls winning the top pick.

[Matthew]

Air Gordon,

I believe there are going to be some changes made but regardless who is moved/stayed, the team should make the playoffs and possibly be competing for the central division title. That’s hardly rebuilding

What is your definition of rebuilding and why would you be surprised if Gordon/Deng are back? The Bulls can match any offer they get and after the seasons they both had, no team should offer either player 5yr/50mil (which Pax offered before start of this season).

First I'll get to the rebuilding question. I consider rebuilding to restructuring the core of the team. A team can have success while doing that. As for Deng/ Gordon, If a team is willing to sign Larry Hughes to a max deal, I think there would be a few teams interested in Deng/ Gordon over 10 million a season. Teams overspend on free agents.

Hughes and Gooden may be viewed as necessary “evils” in the trade but Gooden is easily the team’s best post player and should be playing a lot of minutes whether it be at PF or C.

I agree Gooden should stay but I hardly think he will be in the Bulls long term plans.

The backcourt will be crowded but Hughes should be a rotation player since he and Gordon are the only perimeter players that can create shots for themselves.

If you consider forcing bad shots to be "creating shots" then cool!

I’m interested to hear exactly where you draw the line between being intense/dedicated/etc and being a hard ass. Personally i think it's all the same. almost all the coaches in the nba are hard asses, especially the successful ones

Epitome of hard arse = Jerry Sloan

Epitome of dedicated/ intense = Stan Van Gundy

[air gordon]

Interesting points, Matthew

That’s a rather broad view of rebuilding. I did think you were suggesting the team was going to get young after the draft so I couldn’t imagine the team being competitive. (do you think the Bulls 1999 were rebuilding too? )

Using the Larry Hughes argument, yes, anything can happen. Consider though that Hughes at the time was coming off a career year, a member of the all defensive team, the Wiz made it past the 1st round. His value was at a all time high. Gordon and Deng, however, regressed from last year and their team didn’t even make the playoffs. A splurge on Gor-Deng is unlikely to happen

I’m not sure of all the teams with the free cap space this offseason (perhaps we can over them) though I do know Memphis is one team that has money to throw around. You can strike them off the list with Gay, Miller, Conley, JC Navarro, and others already aboard

Is Gooden part of the Bulls long term plans? Unlikely but we’re not even debating that (unless you want to lol) or maybe you just want to add more comments about him. Not sure

If I had a choice between the Bulls not even being able to get off a shot before the shot clock expiring vs Hughes forcing a bad shot, with the shot clock expiring, I would take the latter. So many times the Bulls would have shot clock violations because they couldn’t get a shot off. Also it was easy for defenses to key on Gordon since he was the only one on the court that could create a shot for himself. That’s not cool!

So exactly what are Sloan and SVG doing differently? I’m interested to hear what distinguishes an intense coach from being a hardass

And while we’re at it, let’s go over these coaches. kindly classify which are intense or hardass.

Gregg Popovich
Phil Jackson
Scott Skiles
Don Nelson
Mike Brown
Rick Carlisle
Doc Rivers
Eddie Jordan
Avery Johnson

thanks

[Andrew]

I’m interested to hear what distinguishes an intense coach from being a hardass

In Skiles' case, winning.

I don't think this is the interpretation of "intense" and "hardass" that Matthew is going for since he brought up Jerry Sloan but if we're to consider one good and the other bad, I'd say the difference is strategy. For example, Gregg Popovich and Scott Skiles are both coaches that aren't known for letting the inmates run the asylum and in their own ways will be tough on their players.

However, Popovich will also give Ginobili and Parker reign to play the game in a way he's probably not too enamoured with as he knows how it can benefit the Spurs and uses it to their advantage. That the Spurs have been so successful and he's maintained the respect of his players suggests he knows when to be tough and when to cut the team some slack as well as having a few tricks up his sleeve. That could be seen as the mark of an "intense" coach.

Skiles on the other hand is tough on his players but allows it to get in the way of strategy, yanking players if they happen to miss a couple of shots or letting the likes of Malik Allen and Adrian Griffin play extended minutes while believing they're offensive players or going to the same old strategy if things get tough; bench Gordon, start Duhon. That kind of stubborness and tunnel vision could be traits associated with a "hardass".

Of course that's just one interpretation, and if you want to use those terms interchangeably then a coach that could be described as a hardass doesn't necessarily mean one that's lacking in innovation or employing questionable strategies. But a word like "hardass" tends to carry negative connotations, moreso than "intense".

[Matthew]

That’s a rather broad view of rebuilding. I did think you were suggesting the team was going to get young after the draft so I couldn’t imagine the team being competitive. (do you think the Bulls 1999 were rebuilding too? Wink )

Yes of course they were attempting to rebuild. Being competitive is a rare side effect of rebuilding, but sometimes it does happen.

Using the Larry Hughes argument, yes, anything can happen. Consider though that Hughes at the time was coming off a career year, a member of the all defensive team, the Wiz made it past the 1st round. His value was at a all time high. Gordon and Deng, however, regressed from last year and their team didn’t even make the playoffs. A splurge on Gor-Deng is unlikely to happen

We'll have to wait and see really.

I’m not sure of all the teams with the free cap space this offseason (perhaps we can over them) though I do know Memphis is one team that has money to throw around. You can strike them off the list with Gay, Miller, Conley, JC Navarro, and others already aboard

I think Deng could goto Memphis, but I'd be surprised if he does. Miami could have cap room if Marion walks (I haven't checked any of these salary cap numbers yet), and Toronto could be interested in a player like Gordon so a sign and trade or a 3 way deal could be done there. Also, with Arenas opting out maybe a sign and trade on both sides (Bulls and Wizards) could happen with Arenas coming to Chicago to play the shooting guard along Rose.

Is Gooden part of the Bulls long term plans? Unlikely but we’re not even debating that (unless you want to lol) or maybe you just want to add more comments about him. Not sure

Considering the majority of this discussion between me and you is about rebuilding I thought long term plans fit right into it

If I had a choice between the Bulls not even being able to get off a shot before the shot clock expiring vs Hughes forcing a bad shot, with the shot clock expiring, I would take the latter. So many times the Bulls would have shot clock violations because they couldn’t get a shot off. Also it was easy for defenses to key on Gordon since he was the only one on the court that could create a shot for himself. That’s not cool!

I would rather neither. Ask Lebron James how good Larry Hughes is offensively.

So exactly what are Sloan and SVG doing differently? I’m interested to hear what distinguishes an intense coach from being a hardass

In my opinion, and having played for alot of coaches in rugby league, the difference is if players are actually scared of their coach or not. If they are hard arses, they will have fear. If they are dedicated, coaches get their job done through respect.

In my opinion,

Gregg Popovich - Dedicated
Phil Jackson - Hard Arse
Scott Skiles - Hard Arse
Don Nelson - Dedicated
Mike Brown - Dedicated
Rick Carlisle - Dedicated
Doc Rivers - Dedicated
Eddie Jordan - Dedicated
Avery Johnson - Hard Arse but also gets alot of respect from his players too

In Skiles' case, winning.

Uh, no. Winning has nothing to do with it.