I am going out on a limb...(T-Wolves off-season related)

[Riot]

Well, I don't want to start an argument, but I'll state my opinion and you can have your opinion, that's some of what the Founding Fathers wanted, right?

Pierzynski was not at fault for the play. What he did was an entirely clean baseball play.

I'm not saying that the play was his fault, I'm saying he is complaining and bitching about how everyone is blaming him and how he is such a great guy. He was whining on PTI today about how he has a bad rep for no reason and that he is a great guy. He tried too hard to make himself sound like the good guy and it came off as very whiny.

[dada]

consider this the year after shaq's arrival/departure: miami prior to shaq (with lamar-caron) was 42-40 at .512 winning %....miami with shaq was 59-23 with a 720 winning %. la post shaq (with lamar-odom) is 34-48 at .415 winning.... la with shaq was 50-32 with a .61 winning %. That is a 20% switch both ways, and that is what i call the shaq effect. Those teams effectively switched destinies with that trade. la to glorified first round exits and parades for actually making the playoffs, and miami who would consider anything but a championship dissapointment.

Team chemistry isnt built overnight and that is what Miami had going for them that season which would have ran over to the next. Those guys were a close knit group which scrapped, battled together and were all on the same page. They started that year slow and then went on a run which would rival the records of the best teams in the league that year, this would have carried over also. The entire Miami Heat team did not move over to LA either, as Jae pointed out, it was a completely different supporting cast and also a completely different coaching staff. Give me Haslem over Cook any day. I commented specifically on that Miami Heat team so I dont even see how throwing around the Lakers record comes into play and even so you discount the fact that guys were injured. The Lakers had a winning record that year until that horrible run at the end of the season when guys started going down. They werent on a 34-48 pace all year contrary to popular belief. Even this year people talk and talk about LA as if they were the Hawks or Bobcats. They had a winning record with a less talented group than the previous year. They beat some of the top teams in the regular season and brought Phoenix, the #2 seed, to game 7. Thats a good year in my eyes considering their team roster.

[magius]

But still haven't won anything... and probably won't. Being a contender and actually winning a championship are two entirely different things, and of all the teams remaining are probably the 2nd biggest longshot behind whoever wins Phoenix/LAC. The Lakers would've still been a contender for the last two seasons, I very much doubt they would've won a championship though.

are you guaranteeing that?

i wouldn't call miami a longshot. you guys are telling me I should respect the lakers for taking phoenix to seven. I do. You guys are telling me to take into account injuries. then why do you forget that miami took the pistons to 7 last year, and that wade was injured during the final games? imo, thats hardly a long shot. I think the championship is a toss up between detroit, miami, and dallas..... in fact I am now rooting for miami now that my spurs are gone.

Team chemistry isnt built overnight and that is what Miami had going for them that season which would have ran over to the next. Those guys were a close knit group which scrapped, battled together and were all on the same page. They started that year slow and then went on a run which would rival the records of the best teams in the league that year, this would have carried over also. The entire Miami Heat team did not move over to LA either, as Jae pointed out, it was a completely different supporting cast and also a completely different coaching staff. Give me Haslem over Cook any day. I commented specifically on that Miami Heat team so I dont even see how throwing around the Lakers record comes into play and even so you discount the fact that guys were injured. The Lakers had a winning record that year until that horrible run at the end of the season when guys started going down. They werent on a 34-48 pace all year contrary to popular belief. Even this year people talk and talk about LA as if they were the Hawks or Bobcats. They had a winning record with a less talented group than the previous year. They beat some of the top teams in the regular season and brought Phoenix, the #2 seed, to game 7. Thats a good year in my eyes considering their team roster.

I'm not talking about the lakers like the bobcats (ironic that you use them as your reference considering they were decimated by injuries...), I just said they were mediocore. I mean what am I supposed to call the 7 seed of a 15 team conference? 1 win above mediocore?

yes I think the lakers had a good year too, but what exactly is there to brag about? should they hang a flag up at staples that says "almost beat phoenix in 7?" the thing is I think that by choosing kobe over shaq that is what the lakers have set themselves up for year after year. At least with shaq and tmac or pierce or whoever they could've gotten for kobe they could've remained contenders for 4 or 5 years, and then when he retires you'd pretty much find yourself in the situation you are now; kind of building for the future around some star guard, but kind of not.

while its possible team chemistry and such would follow over to the next season (i'm assuming you mean if lamar-butler had not been traded) I can just as easily argue otherwise:

1. all teams go on hot streaks, and yes we all get excited, but the fact is they always come back down to earth.... remember the hornets this year? how about seatlle last year? even the lakers this year levelled off.

2. ending a season on a high note doesn't guarantee anything. everyone thought golden state was a shoo in this year. or recall the twolves the year after their first visit past the first round.... everyone thought they'd at least be in the same position the next year. apparently not. you can't base how good a team is on their hot streaks (of course in the twolves case it wasn't exactly a hot streak, but regardless they did end the season in an optimistic note).

imo if miami had kept lamar-caron they would be a slightly better washington wizards, and surely not better than they are now.

you're right, I forgot to take into account injuries and supporting cast. sorry. yes they had a winning record this year with a slightly less talented cast, but take into consideration pj and that more than levels off. I guess if they didn't have the injuries their record would be a little lower than this one, bordering 500. that said, I don't know what that proves; both teams still effectively switch destinies imo.

[air gordon]

riot

you have these knee jerk reactions to rumors that don't even exist. as i mentioned- there were no rumors coming out of Chicago, despite your protests. all sam Smith did was dream up some trade scenario. nevermind you said you didn't read his most recent article yet you say he's the one starting the rumors. Also i've never said KG will be traded

and this special designation that KG has for roster input. you want to call it a good working relationship or whatever, that's fine. but no one else has been given that title on a team that's not even close to title contending. not even someone like Michael Jordan had roster input during the years leading to the Bulls winning a championship. he'd bitch and moan to Reinsdort & Krause to get players like Joe Wolfe and Walter Davis because he thought they were the missing pieces (LOL).

call it respect or whatever but i see this thing as a power struggle between the owner, GM, and the franchise player of a team that has missed the playoffs 2 years in a row. lol don't tell me you think Taylor would give Garnett roster input if the T'Wolves did indeed make the playoffs these past 2 years? it's an obvious attempt at keeping Garnett happy and the biggest unvote of confidence toward the GM'ing of McHale's. players are brought in to play. GM's are meant to GM, it's not the other way around.

and what's this talk of not knowing on whether KG will be on the team after next year?? you say he 'loves' it there/wants to bring a trophy to the city of Minnesota but him staying another year depends on what the team does next year. that basically refutes all the bitching and moaning you do in response to people saying he will be traded THIS year

and about AJ- i love it how people talk shit about him. it's the ultimate compliment for players to say they hate the shit out of him but if he was their teammate, they'd love him

i think it's good that he stepped out and made some comments about this perceived rep he has- he was tossed out of Sunday's game and may face possible suspension and/or fine for RECEIVING a punch. i'm pretty sure if it was someone low key like Tadahito Iguchi, he would stayed in the game and not worry about the paying a fine/getting suspended.

let's face it- he was thrown out of the game because of some 'rep' he has- which is based on what??? no one can question his passion and effort in games , he's cooperative with the media, and has done some charitable work for the city. but yeh- this whole 'rep' thing can be a problem in the future so it is a good thing he addressed this issue in the public.

Being a contender and actually winning a championship are two entirely different things

so what's this big difference besides the winner having the Larry O'Brien trophy??

i wouldn't say the Lakers are mediocre but they're not so far from being stuck in the mudd. they have a lot of money tied into Brown, Bryant, and Odom. they don't have a 1st round draft pick this year and next year's pick won't be a high one if they again make the playoffs. they don't have the cap to go after any 'big' name FA this year. and quite possibly there could be another roster overhaul after next season

[Riot]

Glen Taylor is giving Garnett imput on the personal decisions because he wants to keep Garnett happy. That is no secret. But I think you are getting this whole thing wrong. He isn't naming Garnett the new general manager, he is simply saying that they will run things by Garnett this summer. They've done it before in past seasons but this time they will take his word a little bit more seriously. Garnett has been upset with past moves by the organization (trading away Joe Smith, Marc Jackson, not re-signing Billups, etc) and I think now they will try to keep away from the things that he doesn't approve of.

Will Garnett be a Timberwolf this time next season? I think so, however I do know that if the team misses the postseason next year those rumors are going to pick up steam and it just might become a reality. But I do not think we will miss the playoffs three straight years. I don't think Garnett will demand to be traded if he can't get a ring here. He just wants this team to be competitive and be fun to watch for the fans. He does love this state and the fans and that's the only reason why he has stayed here for 11 seasons. For some reason you like to doubt his loyalty to the state and organization but you have no explaination as to why he has stayed here despite all the hardships and temptations (7 straight 1st round exits, Flip fired, Sealy death, trading away best friends, bigger endorsements in other cities, etc). The guy does not want to let his fans down and I think that is something that really need to be looked at before you think he will be traded. But the worst case scenario is we miss the playoffs and the losing just become too much for Garnett and it rips him away from his loyalty. Or the organization tells him they will continue with their rebuilding stage with or without him. That is the only way I see him being dealt.

As for A.J., I think he did nothing wrong in the brawl but at the same time I'm sick of him acting like he is treated so unfairly. Most of the stuff he gets blamed for is all his fault. He's like the Kobe Bryant of the MLB. There is a reason why all his peers don't like him and it's not because he is really good. He gets under their skin and he comes off as a jerk and arrogant. I really didn't like him as a Twin and I especially don't like him as a White Sox.

[J@3]

so what's this big difference besides the winner having the Larry O'Brien trophy??

And the Lakers do have a first round pick.

[Donatello]

Uhoh, Riot.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/ ... he_market/

[Stevesanity]

Uhoh, Riot.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/ ... he_market/

Beat me to it, luckily I checked this thread cause I was about to start a new topic about it but then again theirs been enough KG trade threads popping up so it would only make a little extra mess to have dozens of threads discussing the same topic like the 10+ MVP threads that the forum had going on.

I saw one about the Wolves only trading KG if Kobe or LeBron was involved, fat chance that would ever happen but things seem to be very unstable of late when it comes to KG rumors. I'm still pretty sure he'll stay and not get traded, next season is probably when the window will actually open up after the T-Wolves have what is likely to be another bad year Iverson or no Iverson.

[Riot]

Yesterday there was a wiretap article about how Garnett was not available. What's changed?

I'm not worried about Garnett being traded this year. There is no way he's dealt this summer.

[air gordon]

riot

maybe i didn't make myself clear in my earlier. let me go over it again and you let me know if you don't understand:

i don't believe Minnesota will trade Garnett this season, despite whatever rumors come out. just because i am giving my opinions on proposed offers by writers and other posters in the forum, it doesn't change my stance. until i hear Garnett himself say he wants to be traded on TV/radio, not some website, i will not change my stance

now i do bring up the issue of him possibly moving only because you basically CONTRADICTED yourself. you once again mention this loyalty/love rant yet you mention that after next year he may leave if the team sucks. now i see you backed up on your stance/got more specific with your explanation....do you still follow me?

now again with this roster input thing- it's ridiculous and it says a lot about the GM (and owner) that the owner has to give this designation to KG. Why should they do things he doesn't approve of? What are his qualifications? does he have a staff under him scouting players in the NBA and overseas? Shouldn't KG be overseas or somewhere else instead of at the Metrodome watching baseball. Is he scouting AJ to lace it up with the T'wolves? how can KG properly evaluate draft prospects when he hasn't been at college games/overseas scouting them?


now for AJ- as i said, i don't really care if you or anyone else outside of the White Sox organization hates him. what i do care about is that because of this rep (which you still haven't explained is due to exactly what) as an irratant caused him to be ejected and face possible suspension/fines. That is completely unfair, nevermind that AJ does not have a laundry list of offenses with the Major league office. he should not be suspended, fined, and or ejected in the future just because he's an asshole

now that Bryant comparison is pretty outrageous

[air gordon]

sorry double post but i figure it would be easier for Jae if i made a separate post for my discussion with him...

my mistake on the Lakers pick. Pick 26th, no?

but as for this contender/winner thing... please do elaborate more. now if we're just talking who has more trophies or something like that, i can understand your point. other then that, i don't follow and would like an explanation

[Riot]

Will Garnett ever be traded? I don't know. Honestly, I don't know what to think anymore. Garnett is obviously frustrated with losing and it is testing his loyatly. He and his wife love it up here so it would have to take a very strong feeling to take him away from here. If the Wolves miss the playoffs next year will that be enough to cause him to leave? Your guess is as good as mine. My whole issue is with the fact that people think he will be dealt this summer. I understand you don't, but many do.

I think you have this input on roster a little bit wrong. Garnett has been asked about player personal decisions before and they usually listen to him and make their decision after hearing what he has to say. That doesn't mean his word is final, but they just throw out there to help the discussion.

What this means is they want to know what Garnett wants. Garnett has complained because the team has too much youth and has gone through too much change. The organization wants to know what he wants to do so they can go in a direction that they both are interested in going in. Garnett is not playing general manager and Kevin McHale and Glen Taylor are not his puppets. Garnett has said that he doesn't think he should have too much say on what happens with the roster in the past so I assume he feels the same way right now. But if the team is thinking about pulling the trigger on a deal for Stephon Marbury I think it would be wise to ask Garnett if he would want Marbury back on the team. I'm sure the Chicago Bulls would ask Michael Jordan if he wanted to have someone on the team that he has publicly had a fued with.

[Laker Socks]

This thread is still rolling eh?
Im getting tired of this.

easily. Consider that the miami heat are now in the conference finals. not to mention they didn't too shabby last year either. believe you me, miami made their money back. 20 mil for a top 3 centre in the nba (duncan, yao-shaq [debatable]? sounds good to me. You can say all you want about his stats, but everyone knows that betting your money on a team with a good big is the high percentage by far. Bigs are a rare commodity, and like anything - the rarer they get the more expensive they are. The disparity and lack of true bigs in this league relative to that of guards is mind blowing, which makes shaq even more valuable imo. Say what you want about that "fat old man," but the fact is that fat bastard is still playing right now on a contender.

You're talking about 20 million. Which is less than the amount Buss wanted to pay Shaq. There's a difference between paying Snaq 30mil and 20 mil.

exactly. yet that is all kobe has to show when it comes to his 'attractability' via free agency.

WTF? This is crazy. You need to look at the other and more important factors why free agent signings have been crap and la
1. We have Mitch Kupchak as our GM
2. The stupid 2008 plan
3. Veterans would actually sign with contenders.

Again, why put the blame on Kobe here? This is getting ridiculous. You're speculating. Im giving you facts as to why the lakers were not able to sign players to significantly improve the team.

and I'd rather have a contender than a first round exit. again, funny that how out of shape, overpaid, and declining schmuck has led miami to the shit; they are practically the worst team in the nba! Oh the horror.... imagine!.... still playing late may! what was riley thinking?! what a waste of money! after all, he was only an mvp candidate last year! that slug!

WTF are you yapping on about? Riley got Shaq to play for LESS money.
Shaq leading this team to the east finals is a myth. Look at the names surrounding him, Wade, Williams, Posey, Walker, Haslem, GP, ZO.

yes, zo and payton are pushovers. no would want them. come on, be realistic here, they are not exactly useless - in fact they are both above average role players. Miami didn't need another star, and they couldn't afford another star with wade's upcoming contract taken into consideration. The fact that finley was even tendering an offer with miami says enough imo. that Miami, a team that is a contender yes, a champion no, competed well over finley against the spurs is not exactly a slap in the face. shaq has buying power.... duncan has more (especially with finley's personality taken into consideration) its that simple. imo, money was not what was driving finley's decision.

Im forgetting the part where i apparently mentioned they are useless.

I already explained why GP signed with miami earlier in this thread.
Zo signed because miami was a contender. Keywords: Zo & Miami

i don't see that plan ever being fulfilled to its potential. More likely they will end up overpaying whoever they can get.

I hope they abandon that plan as soon as Bosh signs an extension.

I cant. I read the article a couple of years ago. Try searching for it in google.

I'm not fooling myself. Shaq was the most dominant player in the nba, and one of the greatest centres in nba history. I don't understand how that isn't a selling point. imho the fact that the main reason they came to that team was for the chance to play with shaq is pretty clear. Again, since you like articles and quotes so much and since you are a laker fan, I find it hard to believe that you have forgotten the media coverage surrounding those signings. Shaq's name probably appeared in those articles more than gp and malones. Very Happy if anything it was mandatory.

I have not. You probably heard about how Shaq tends to invent stories to the media right? He did it recently with wade and TNT was all over reporting it right.

Yes, Shaq was part of the reason but dont dismiss the fact that if the lakers were not in the situation that they were in the summer of 2003, Malone and GP would not have taken a paycut to play for the lakers.

[Riot]

I love it how we have two different debates going on in the same thread.

[air gordon]

first off, don't throw me under the bus with the people that are saying he wil be traded. i've been pretty clear this whole time yet your frustration has been aimed at me lol

if possible, please provide a link to exactly what kind of title KG has.

first i'm hearing that he has a bigger say in roster moves and now you're downplaying this like they are going to runs things by him as usual, but they'll just "listen more". and exactly why was this "move" annoucned publicly

and of course Reinsdorf & Krause ran it through Phil, Michael, and Scottie before Rodman was brought in- they repeatedly in the past had a bad history with Rodman. but we're talking about a championship team here and Pip and MJ weren't consulted for any other transactions. besides the Bulls situation was completely different situation from the T'Wolves

and i'm still unclear about Garnett's qualifications at whatever he is doing. i can undertand the team would consult him if they were to bring in a player he had a bad history with, but what about the other moves???

[Riot]

They want to know if Garnett can get along with him, if that is what he is looking for, etc. They aren't asking Garnett to put together an off-season plan and present it to them. They'll call him and ask him what he thinks about a player to get his opinion on him. They might ask him who on the Wolves right now he thinks they should deal or what not.

What makes McHale any more qualified than Garnett? Garnett has actually played with and against these guys for 11 years. McHale has been out of the league for well over a decade. Plus, I don't think McHale has shown any kind of promise in terms of determining player talent. Asking Garnett about his opinion on the team formation doesn't seem like such a bad idea. He is the star and the game will run through him, you better get guys that he thinks he can work with.

[air gordon]

KG may as well start coming up with a plan since he has the franchise at his mercy and for some godforesaken reason the owner won't fire McHale. KG better be at all the draft prospects, going over game tape, or something if they've got to run EVERYTHING by him first. what's the point of being in this high position if he doesn't have his homework done



what makes Mchale more qualified? LOL because he has actual GM experience for 11 years and counting. he has been the GM of the most successful T'wolve team in it's franchise history. now of course he's had some bad moves lol

no promise in terms of determinging player talent? hello! he was the one who picked a high schooler from Farragut named Kevin Garnett at a time when high schoolers hadn't been drafted for quite a while. and yes he's had some bad moves you're well aware lol

big deal if KG has been playing 11yrs? using this to support your point is pretty outrageous. if they want somenone that's in touch with the current group of players, then KG should be the coach, not the GM

the most successful GM's in this league are not ex-players that have been in the league within the last 11yrs

if you don't think McHale is qualified, then say you want him fired instead of questioning his qualifications and saying a current nba player is more qualified. that is just uttlerly insane

[Riot]

I do want Kevin McHale fired and so does everyone in the state of Minnesota. I'm pretty sure me and you are more qualified than him. Sure, he has made some good moves but he has also messed up on A LOT. He has had one of the best players of our generation and he has only gotten out of the first round once? There is no reason for that.

Who said they are running EVERYTHING by Garnett? I never said that and Glen Taylor never said that. But they will ask Garnett what he thinks about certain personal moves and I personally think that is a great idea. It's worked before (Cassell, Sprewell, Sealy, Marbury).

[J@3]

sorry double post but i figure it would be easier for Jae if i made a separate post for my discussion with him...

my mistake on the Lakers pick. Pick 26th, no?

but as for this contender/winner thing... please do elaborate more. now if we're just talking who has more trophies or something like that, i can understand your point. other then that, i don't follow and would like an explanation

I'm not sure what you're saying, that's why the smiley. It looked like you were questioning the difference between being a contender and actually winning a championship?

[Jackal]

He's questioning your thoughts behind this sentance:

Being a contender and actually winning a championship are two entirely different things

You said they are two entirely different things. He asks what your reasoning is behind that comment?

He says the difference between a contender and a championship winner is the Trophy, you say it's two entirely different things. What exactly is so different.

Pretty simple question I think.

[magius]

You're talking about 20 million. Which is less than the amount Buss wanted to pay Shaq. There's a difference between paying Snaq 30mil and 20 mil.

and if la had traded kobe, shaq would've signed for 20. the only reason he wanted 30, like you said, is because he wanted kobe gone.

WTF? This is crazy. You need to look at the other and more important factors why free agent signings have been crap and la
1. We have Mitch Kupchak as our GM
2. The stupid 2008 plan
3. Veterans would actually sign with contenders.

Again, why put the blame on Kobe here? This is getting ridiculous. You're speculating. Im giving you facts as to why the lakers were not able to sign players to significantly improve the team.

Because kobe is la's superstar for years to come, and a free agent will join a team based on the personnel (or the money). Either a team has to offer them the chance to be the one, or the players, more importantly the superstar, has to be attractive to play with. for example, minny is a nice place and all, but don't fool yourself, sam and spree signed there for kg.... just like karl and payton signed in la for shaq. Don't get me wrong, kobe is a great player, but he doesn't have the style of game that compliments that many players. If you're a free agent more often than not you want to go somewhere you can actually touch the ball. of course there are a couple of bigs that hypothetically could see a role in la, but no more than they do on their own teams already (and if not, they are not that valuable).

the fact is shaq and contender are synomomous, they go hand in hand. That is a fact, and that is why players want to play with him.... that and he's a big.

I hope they abandon that plan as soon as Bosh signs an extension.

so whats the new plan? la's not gonna suck enough to get high picks, and regardless if whether it is kobe's fault or not free agents don't seem to want to sign there.

I have not. You probably heard about how Shaq tends to invent stories to the media right? He did it recently with wade and TNT was all over reporting it right.

now that articles don't coincide with your opinion's you disregard them.

Yes, Shaq was part of the reason but dont dismiss the fact that if the lakers were not in the situation that they were in the summer of 2003, Malone and GP would not have taken a paycut to play for the lakers.

again when i say shaq is the reason I mean by majority. When someone asks you who owns microsoft what do you say?

Im forgetting the part where i apparently mentioned they are useless.

i'll refresh your memory:

There you go. Neither are big name FA's and both are old enough to join the nba legends team.

[J@3]

You said they are two entirely different things. He asks what your reasoning is behind that comment?

He says the difference between a contender and a championship winner is the Trophy, you say it's two entirely different things. What exactly is so different.

Pretty simple question I think.

You've got to be kidding, I'm not sure it even deserves a response but nevertheless you don't play to "be one of the best" if you ask every guy in the NBA he'd be playing to be the best, no matter how many "contenders" you have there's only going to be one championship winner. They're the ones people would remember. Who'd even talk about the Bulls if they were just a contender, but never won a championship? Who'd talk about Jordan?

I find it ironic that the same person who spent ages arguing with me about why Karl Malone's career is tainted by a lack of championships is also asking what the difference is between winning a championship and being a contender.

[air gordon]

damnit, riot hehe- just give me the link to that officially announces KG as 'consultant' or whatever. your explanations are all over the place

i wouldn't say i would do a better job then mchale. my only means of scouting are league pass and epsn insider. lol and i'm no salary cap wiz

Jae- so yeh. other then the trophy thing, what's the difference between contenders and champions. i think jackal explained it what i'm getting at. stop confusing me lol

[Jackal]

I still don't see how you can talk about the big difference between being a contender and a winner, yet you can't seem to comprehend why I call the Lakers mediocre.

They aren't even contenders, let alone winners.

[J@3]

Well where's the drop-off? Is it if you're not a championship winner, or a contender, you're mediocre? Would you call the Clippers mediocre? Mediocre to me is high lottery, not play-off team. I don't see why you even bother being a fan of the team anymore, you seem to hate it since Snaq left.