Scottie Pippen: Food For Thought

[Cable]

This was in Chuck Swirsky's latest column, I thought it could be a good discussion.

Food for thought. Without Michael Jordan does Scottie Pippen make the top 50 players of all time list?

I've only ever seen Pippen play in the retro games they show on TV, but from what I've read and heard, I say yes, because he was one of if not the best all-around player ever.

[cyanide]

I'd say no. Pippen wouldn't have grown into the player he was if it wasn't for Jordan. He would've been a good player, but by no means in the top 50 of all time.

[j.23]

i say no as well. although it's hard to say because during one or two years without jordan he absolutely exploded and led his team to the playoffs. i believe one year they got 47 wins then the next 55; correct me if i'm wrong.
i think having jordan on the same team benefited him because they learned from one another, and playing with or against the best offensive player in the world should do wonders for you. having said that though --

without jordan, pippen wouldn't have been top 50
without pippen, i doubt jordan would've gotten any of the championship rings. this is specially relevant for their first and last championship runs. pippen was an absolute beast in the LA series. he didn't really shut down magic per se as magic still got his share of points and assists, but he disrupted their offense by playing the passing lanes to perfection and weakside help. in regards to the last championship run, even though jordan was the MVP for the series, pippen was putting on an offensive and defensive clinic the first five games until he injured his back in game six. had he not injured his back in game six and left the whole scoring load for michael, i believe he could've won the MVP award.

having said all that however i still think pip wouldn't have made top 50 without michael, simply because michael was such a pivotal part in his success.

[Doobie]

Speaking about Pippen , His jersey gets retired tommorow . I agree with you J.23

[Andrew]

I think it would have been possible, if he were given the opportunity to prove himself as an individual. However, I don't think it would have been as likely. Consider some of the snubs in the 50 Greatest list, Dominique Wilkins in particular. Nique was a great player without a doubt but his teams weren't great thus he was (quite unfairly) passed over. At least, that's the popular opinion and one I'm inclined to agree with. In contrast. I believe Michael Jordan may or may not have won championships without Scottie Pippen but I do think he would have made the 50 Greatest list.

[dada]

this should have been a poll.

[Andrew]

Not necessarily. Polls don't really encourage discussion or the sharing of opinions.

[Cable]

You want a poll? Too bad. I'm too lazy to put one up. This way you're forced to post your opinion as well as your answer.

[air gordon]

although it's hard to say because during one or two years without jordan he absolutely exploded and led his team to the playoffs. i believe one year they got 47 wins then the next 55; correct me if i'm wrong.
i think having jordan on the same team benefited him because they learned from one another, and playing with or against the best offensive player in the world should do wonders for you. having said that though --

without pippen, i doubt jordan would've gotten any of the championship rings. this is specially relevant for their first and last championship runs. pippen was an absolute beast in the LA series. he didn't really shut down magic per se as magic still got his share of points and assists, but he disrupted their offense by playing the passing lanes to perfection and weakside help. in regards to the last championship run, even though jordan was the MVP for the series, pippen was putting on an offensive and defensive clinic the first five games until he injured his back in game six. had he not injured his back in game six and left the whole scoring load for michael, i believe he could've won the MVP award.

having said all that however i still think pip wouldn't have made top 50 without michael, simply because michael was such a pivotal part in his success.

i pretty much agree with this post

during jordan's 1st retirement, in those 2yrs pippen was twice a mvp candidate, 1st team all nba & all defensive team, and got robbed of DPOY

94 team was one call away from going to the finals
95 team lost a step when a baseball player joined them late

his averages in that span were:
21ppg, 8.5rpg, 5.5apg, 2.83spg, .9bpg, 48.5fg%

if he could have sustained those numbers and taste some postseason success, he would be borderline top 50 of all time

who knows if they count this but with or without jordan, pippen was always considered the "best teammate" by all of the bulls during the glory years as well as the during the jordan retirement years

[Matt]

well then this debate begs the question.....would either Karl Malone or John Stockton be a top 50 player had they not played together for their entire careers?

each was pivotal to the others game. Where would Stockton's assists come from? Where would Malone get so many easy buckets?

[Indy]

I'd say no. Pippen wouldn't have grown into the player he was if it wasn't for Jordan. He would've been a good player, but by no means in the top 50 of all time.

One of the few times we are in total and complete disagreement. Pippen was the complete package, and is underrated if anything. Without Jordan to overshadow him he would have been considered top 20 of all time. Pip was just that good, in fact, I'm confident that Pippen was the type of guy that you can really build a team around, but was also willing to step in to the number 2 spot. That's why the Bulls were so good.

[Andrew]

95 team lost a step when a baseball player joined them late

I don't know about that, seeing as how they finished 13-4 after his return. But no knock intended on Pippen. As Indy just pointed out, he's underrated if he's anything but I think he'd get snubbed a la Nique if he played his best years elsewhere.

Glad that #33 is being retired so quickly after his retirement. Hopefully it comes during a win, making it one of the games I'll get from Pontel.

Interesting chat with Pip over at NBA.com on Wednesday, definitely worth a read in my opinion, particularly this bit:

Bryan Matti Detroit: Which player in the NBA do you think reminds you of yourself and why?

Scottie Pippen: That's a tough call. I'd like to say Tayshaun Prince, but he is lefty. But he is long and has similar characteristics... but he wasn't probably pushed into the area I was....as a point-forward. Some people say Tracy McGrady... who I don't think is really like me at all. Sometimes folks say Lamar Odom, but I don't see the speed and energy in Lamar. And even if my offense was not working that night, I made my contributions on the defensive end...which you don't see alot. Also, I see some guys trying to compare people to Michael Jordan. One thing I can say on that, is that unless you perform at the top level on both ends of the court, on the offense and on the defensive end...you cannot begin to compare a guy's game to Michael's, because of what he did on the defensive end of the court.

[putodelagoa]

94 team was one call away from going to the finals

I think this pretty much solves the question about Pippen deserving to be in that list with or without MJ. He was an MVP candidate in that season, his prime, all by himself, red Nikes and all.

Snubbed Players in that list, like Dominique Wilkins or Bob mcAdoo weren't great players but on the offensive side of the floor. Pippen could do it all.

I personally think Pippen is a top 20 player in that list. One could argue, that within the logic of "what if he hadn't played with..." guys like Parish wouldn't make the cut either.
I think Pip is definitely more deserving to belong on that list than guys like Gervin, Maravich, Pearl, Drexler, Bing or James Worthy.

[cklitsie]

Pippen would definately have been a Top 50 players IMO. He was the best 'number 2' ever for me and he would've been a damn good franchise player too. You'd just have to surround him with players that fit him the best and not MJ.

Glad that #33 is being retired so quickly after his retirement. Hopefully it comes during a win, making it one of the games I'll get from Pontel.

Hey I know you are the admin and you should give the good example and stuff, but haven't you ever thought of getting those games 'in another way'? Just wondering..

You could say it wouldn't be as special as owning it on a VHS but you could always burn it to a DVD.

[air gordon]

95 team lost a step when a baseball player joined them late

I don't know about that, seeing as how they finished 13-4 after his return. But no knock intended on Pippen. As Indy just pointed out, he's underrated if he's anything but I think he'd get snubbed a la Nique if he played his best years elsewhere.

Glad that #33 is being retired so quickly after his retirement. Hopefully it comes during a win, making it one of the games I'll get from Pontel.

Interesting chat with Pip over at NBA.com on Wednesday, definitely worth a read in my opinion, particularly this bit:

Bryan Matti Detroit: Which player in the NBA do you think reminds you of yourself and why?

Scottie Pippen: That's a tough call. I'd like to say Tayshaun Prince, but he is lefty. But he is long and has similar characteristics... but he wasn't probably pushed into the area I was....as a point-forward. Some people say Tracy McGrady... who I don't think is really like me at all. Sometimes folks say Lamar Odom, but I don't see the speed and energy in Lamar. And even if my offense was not working that night, I made my contributions on the defensive end...which you don't see alot. Also, I see some guys trying to compare people to Michael Jordan. One thing I can say on that, is that unless you perform at the top level on both ends of the court, on the offense and on the defensive end...you cannot begin to compare a guy's game to Michael's, because of what he did on the defensive end of the court.

the triangle offense was showcased at its best without jordan. secondary players like grant and armstrong had career years. role players like wennington and buechler's talents were maximized.

the record was good but i remember watching those games- when jordan returned, he disrupted the flow of the offense. and the role players, while on the floor, would sometimes just stand still and watch jordan in amazement. Bill wennington would later admit this.

a lot of the bulls possesions had a struggling baseplayer isolated while the rest of the team standing around

anywho, i'm pretty excited for this game. pip's one of my favorite players. luckily i was able to get some tickets...

[Andrew]

Snubbed Players in that list, like Dominique Wilkins or Bob mcAdoo weren't great players but on the offensive side of the floor. Pippen could do it all.

Nique still had a great impact. At the time, he deserved to be there moreso than Shaq, though that's not the case these days. I'm sure I could find someone to rank Nique above but I can't remember the entire list offhand and am too lazy to look it up right now.

I think Pip is definitely more deserving to belong on that list than guys like Gervin, Maravich, Pearl, Drexler, Bing or James Worthy.

Perhaps more deserving, but I think those guys definitely belong there.

the triangle offense was showcased at its best without jordan. secondary players like grant and armstrong had career years. role players like wennington and buechler's talents were maximized.

the record was good but i remember watching those games- when jordan returned, he disrupted the flow of the offense. and the role players, while on the floor, would sometimes just stand still and watch jordan in amazement. Bill wennington would later admit this.

a lot of the bulls possesions had a struggling baseplayer isolated while the rest of the team standing around

I won't deny that, Jordan did have that effect on his teammates which at the end of the day didn't work in the Bulls favour. I just hate all the "Bulls won in spite of Michael Jordan" theories. I wouldn't consider a 34-31 team an example of a team destined to go all the way, though no question the 1994 team was impressive.

Hey I know you are the admin and you should give the good example and stuff, but haven't you ever thought of getting those games 'in another way'? Just wondering..

You could say it wouldn't be as special as owning it on a VHS but you could always burn it to a DVD

Pontel's doing DVDs these days. Besides, at the moment I'm still on a 256/64 connection, so anything over 100 MB is still a "leave it and come back later" job.

[putodelagoa]

Nique still had a great impact. At the time, he deserved to be there moreso than Shaq, though that's not the case these days. I'm sure I could find someone to rank Nique above but I can't remember the entire list offhand and am too lazy to look it up right now.

No doubt. The knock on Nique was his lack of postseason success and having no "D" to speak of, but it's not like Maravich had any kind of colective success, nor was he a stopper, by any means. Dave Bing didn't win that many games to make him a no-brainer in that list, over Nique, that is. On the other hand, guys like Alex English, Bernard King and Adrian Dantley didn't make it either, despite being such accomplished scorers, just like Wilkins was (regardless of game stiles).

[Matthew]

Also dont forget Pippen was one quarter away from winning a 7th ring in 2000 before the Lakers came storming back to steal that game 7 win.

The thing about Pippen with Jordan is he also made MJ better. I know thats cliche but when you truely think about it, how good Jordan was as individual talent, and that someone else actually elevated his game by playing their own individual style shows exactly how good Pippen was. Theres only 2 other guys that comes to mind that were able to elevate their superstar teamates in a similar fashion and thats John Stockton and Magic.

Plus, if you ever think Pippen was just a grandstander in the championship runs, you obviously didnt watch the games. His efforts (most notably in the 92 series and the first 4 games of the 98 series) is was really made them unstopable at times.

I wonder if Kevin McHale's legacey ever endured this question mark? To me Scottie isnt on MJ's level. But as i say with Kobe, if thats the only criticism of his game, then he has to be truely great. I do put him in the top 20 of all time though.

[havasufalls]

Living in chicago all my life and growing up around the bulls and a huge bulls fan i will have to say that Pippen was not one of the 50 greastest players at all. I have said before that Pippen to me was garbage. Now when i say that i may say that i mean it but i dont really mean it as far a being garbage. He was barely OK in my opinion.

I believe Jordan would of still won titles without him just for the simple fact that he was just that damn good plus he has that determination to win and nothing else will sufice. Jordan made Pippen in my mind as he made that entire bulls team.
After the break up they all went their seperate ways and look wat happened

Pippen went to houston and portland to do jus about nothing. He didnt do much in portland cause anything they did they could of did without him cause they were talented. I wont say pippen lacked the will to win more like he lacked the will to not except losing as an option

Rodman well thats one of my fav players of all time but he did nothing after he left bulls but he did damage with detroit anyways

Harper didnt do much at all with LA

Luc went to NY and was horrible

Toni hasnt been the same

Kerr got about .00000001 mins per game with San Antionio

Other players such as Randy Brown, Bill Wennington, Dicky Simpkins, and Jud went on to other teams and jus disappeared

Im sorry but wen i watch games jus as game 5 of the finals wen Jordan was sick and scores all the points for the bulls in the begining sits down and u watch pip and the rest of them jus stick up the floor jus for jordan to have to come back in to save them jus really shows how jordan made them.

True Pippen made it almost to the finals but he jus cant do it he doesnt have it. When he was with the bulls in 94 and lost and wen he was with portland in 2000 and lost that shows he just does not have it. Like many people agree yao doesnt have that mean streak to really put him over the top and one of the greats...pip doesnt have that mentality that losing is not an option.

[tsherkin]

Pip without MJ? MJ without Pip?

Tough questions.

Pippen was tall, versatile, athletic (some even dared to say more athletic than Jordan), crafty (he taught Jordan how to dunk left-handed from the corner, acording to Phil Jackson), and had great energy and intensity on the court. That was always true of him. He understood the game really well.

With that in mind, without Jordan, who knows what he could have been? He might've gone to a team that needed a scorer and developed like that or he could've filled the same role somewhere else. What if he'd gone to Seattle and played with Kemp and Payton? Or Houston, with Dream?

Pippen developed with Jordan, sure, but he did a lot for MJ as well, which implies a significant amount of worth on his own part to begin with.

Would he have been top 50 without MJ/off the Bulls? Who knows? He is the iconic point-forward, known for that spot even more than Paul Pressey. He's exactly the kind of SF teams look for. If he was that on another team and/or scored more, yeah, I think he could have been Top 50 without MJ.

[Drex]

When he was with the bulls in 94 and lost and wen he was with portland in 2000 and lost that shows he just does not have it.

He was an MVP candidate in 94, and you say he doesn't have it? I might go right now and say that Jordan cameback with the Wizards and lost, so he doesn't have it

[putodelagoa]

Living in chicago all my life and growing up around the bulls and a huge bulls fan i will have to say that Pippen was not one of the 50 greastest players at all. I have said before that Pippen to me was garbage. Now when i say that i may say that i mean it but i dont really mean it as far a being garbage. He was barely OK in my opinion.
.

Yeah. Pippen was real garbage

I am short of words to comment this post...

No Pippen, no titles for Mr. Jordan. It's that simple. And now we might have been discussing wether MJ belonged to the 50 all time list, when compared with Drexler, Ewing, Barkley, Kemp, Malone, folks that would have 1 ring each, because Pip wouldn't be there to help Jordan deny it to them. When Pip left the Bulls, he was fading as a player. So pointing out his performance late in his career is absurd. He spent his best years in Chicago.

[Matthew]

havasufalls, you could not be more wrong about Pippen. you make it sound like he was Rick Fox on the Laker championship teams.

I believe Jordan would of still won titles without him just for the simple fact that he was just that damn good plus he has that determination to win and nothing else will sufice. J

MJ had that determination before the addition and devolpment of Pippen, and how far did the bulls get then? It was Pippen (and grants devlopment) that took the bulls from a team on the verge to a dynasty. Now im not (and wouldnt) say that Jordan wasnt the foundation of the bulls dominance, but Pippen was the sidekick to Jordan. You look at the problems Kobe is going through in LA. Pippen was the guy in chicago that made sure MJ didnt have to do it all by himself. He brought the ball up, played outstanding defense, shot well in transition, was able to post up, rebound and play great help defense. He was their point guard and allowed Mike to focus just on scoring. Without Pippen, The bulls would have won maybe 2 championships (93 and 98, just on speculation and my own opinion).

Jordan made Pippen in my mind as he made that entire bulls team.
After the break up they all went their seperate ways and look wat happened

Well you can say the same for Jordan. He really didnt accomplish much in washington did he? Becuase he was aging and well and truely past his prime. He was still good (same as Pippen was still good in portland), but if you hold jordan to the same standard you are holding pippen, surely you will admit Jordan didnt get anything done without pippen after the 98 breakup.

Pippen went to houston and portland to do jus about nothing. He didnt do much in portland cause anything they did they could of did without him cause they were talented. I wont say pippen lacked the will to win more like he lacked the will to not except losing as an option

Pippen changed the outlook of that entire blazers team. Think back to the conference finals against the lakers when they came back from 3-1 down to not only tie the series, but to be one quarter away from the championship (no disrespect to indiana that year, but portland would have demolished them in the finals). And you say Pippen just accepted losing? Well I guess Jordan did too, becuase the wizards didnt make the playoffs. See how flawed that way of thinking is?

Harper didnt do much at all with LA

Yeah 2 more rings with LA isnt much at all.

Luc went to NY and was horrible

Longley's always been terrible

Im sorry but wen i watch games jus as game 5 of the finals wen Jordan was sick and scores all the points for the bulls in the begining sits down and u watch pip and the rest of them jus stick up the floor jus for jordan to have to come back in to save them jus really shows how jordan made them.

But thats Jordans role on the team, to score. With the exception of Kukoc, the Bulls didnt have one goto scorer. Pippen was a playmaker with the ball in his hands, like Jason Kidd almost. Kidd doesnt have to score 35 points to be effective, and the same goes for pippen.

What if he'd gone to Seattle and played with Kemp and Payton?

In the trade for Pippen, the bulls sent a furture first round draft pick which the sonics used on kemp. So a trio of Kemp, payton and pippen wasnt possible.

[Andrew]

Funnily enough, I actually managed to get hold of a Pippen jersey the other week, after all this time. Caught the ceremony on NBA.com (watched it today since the live feed didn't work yesterday), thought it was a really good tribute. Great to see all those former Bulls come together to honour Pip, who was visibly touched by the whole event. Great moment to see #33 up in the rafters, where it belongs.

Favourite moments:

When the banner was revealed in the spotlight.
Barkley's quip about MJ kissing the ground Pip walks on and the mirth it caused
The speeches by Jax, MJ and Pip
The announcement (and the reaction in the United Center) that no Bull would ever again wear #33

Another Scottie Pippen though: I hope he sticks around on the ESPN crew. Perhaps my favourite part of that arrangement is that he's replacing Stephen A. Smith.

In the trade for Pippen, the bulls sent a furture first round draft pick which the sonics used on kemp. So a trio of Kemp, payton and pippen wasnt possible.

He might have been referring to the proposed/rumoured trade in 1994, though that still wouldn't be possible since it would have been Kemp for Pippen.

[havasufalls]

Im still not one to give pippen the credit that some people give him. As far as comparing wat they did in respects to later in their career lets not go by just after the bulls lets be fair and show by age....

At 34 Jordan was leading the bulls to their 5th championship
At 34 Pippen was losing to the lakers in the conference finals
At 35 Jordan was leading the bulls to their 6th championship and MVP of the NBA
At 35 Pippen getting swept in round 1 by the lakers in which that year he averaged 10ppg, 4.6apg, 5rpg
At 39 Jordan was an Allstar 23ppg, 5.2apg, 5.7rpg
At 39 Pippen was not in the NBA
At 40 Jordan was again an Allstar with 20ppg, 4apg, and 6rpg
At 40 Pippen IS on ESPN as an NBA analyst

So please dont compare jordan vs. pippen cause by age as u can c how things reall stacked up

Another Scottie Pippen though: I hope he sticks around on the ESPN crew. Perhaps my favourite part of that arrangement is that he's replacing Stephen A. Smith.

As an NBA analyst i like him but the worse part is he has taken Stephen A. Smith's part. Stephen kept it real he was like the barkley of that show. Dont tell ME u wont miss him saying RASHO NESTEROVIC