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Postby Alcoholic on Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:52 pm

Dennis Rodman was suspended 11 games for kicking a courtside cameraman in the groin and six games for head-butting a referee.


:lol:



I don't think Artest was really looking for a fight. He is defensive player of the year after all, he was trying to stop an easy basket. Maybe he shouldn't have, though. I didn't see who was guarding Wallace, but it really looked like he just let him go and get the dunk. But then Artest stopped him, maybe not knowing his teammate was giving the basket, and that pissed Ben off. You could tell by his body language, the way he turned around and started marching straight at Artest, looking him in the eye, that he was going to do something, that's probably why Artest tried to brace for impact.
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Postby . on Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:56 pm

Last season he elbows RIP Hamilton on purpose in the nose (which had been broken 3 times already)

Actually he hit him in his jaw when he was wearing that mask, not in his nose :wink:
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Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:58 pm

Once again, I have to be lazy and agree with Eugene.

As far as the NBA's ruling goes:

The events at last night’s game were shocking, repulsive and inexcusable -- a humiliation for everyone associated with the NBA. This demonstrates why our players must not enter the stands whatever the provocation or poisonous behavior of people attending the games. Our investigation is ongoing and I expect it to be completed by tomorrow evening.


Well put. Still, I think the fans must be held somewhat accountable for their behaviour and while the NBA is naturally going to be concerned with punishing their players, some of those fans should not have the privilege of attending an NBA game for a little while.

Indiana players Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O’Neal are suspended indefinitely, the length to be determined upon completion of the investigation.


I think that's fair. The Pacers were clearly provoked, but it would set an ugly standard if the NBA didn't hand down some punishment for entering the stands and punching fans. Automatic penalties basically guarantee that those guys wouldn't go unpunished, no matter how justified or unjustified their actions may seem to the rest of us looking in.

Detroit player Ben Wallace is suspended indefinitely, the length to be determined upon completion of the investigation.


I also think this is fair, given that his reaction was out of line and far too aggressive, he proceeded to throw a towel at Artest and the fact that this was the event that triggered the whole incident. He probably won't get the largest penalty when the duration of all the suspensions are decided, but I'd be very surprised and somewhat disappointed if it was only one game. If Brad Miller can be suspended one game for having a punch thrown at him, Wallace deserves a little more than that.

Review of rules and procedures relating to altercations and security have been undertaken so that fans can continue to attend our games unthreatened by events such as the ones that occurred last night.


This too is fair enough and a good decision, but as the Players Association will probably argue, the players also need to feel unthreatened and the fans should be held accountable for their actions. There's fault on both sides here. Consider the fans who made their way onto the court to confront Pacer players. In the normal case, a fan coming onto the court uninvited is grounds for immediate ejection.

On SportsCenter last night, they brought up the fact that the longest suspension for a non-drug related incident was Latrell Sprewell's suspension in 97/98 for choking PJ Carliesimo (68 games, reduced from two years and the termination of his contract, which the Warriors had to honour until they traded him to New York).

With such an incident as the precedent, does anyone think that there is a chance the NBA will hand out a similar penalty for the Pacers who entered the stands?
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Postby Fresh8 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:58 pm

But wat is reasonable foreseeability?

If those 'fans' can prove that the Arena security should have forseen that a player jumping into attack fans could have occured and they didnt take any measures to prevent this.... they are still liable.

The Pistons released a statement saying they are going to 'playoff security' next game and will do so for the rest of however long the franchiuse exists... expect the league to follow suit.

Ont he espn.com article i rerad, the man who does STAPLES center security said that they train in case these incidents happen... doesnt that mean they have already forseen the possiblity of this happening?

But honestly... both parties are at fault and we'll see some guys suing and some guys trying to... the fans who aggrivated Artest should get banned from Detroit games... but the NBA will need to be careful about banning other fans because this could cause a populartity drop and jeapodize the financial future of the league...
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Postby Matt on Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:13 pm

But wat is reasonable foreseeability?

If those 'fans' can prove that the Arena security should have forseen that a player jumping into attack fans could have occured and they didnt take any measures to prevent this.... they are still liable.

The Pistons released a statement saying they are going to 'playoff security' next game and will do so for the rest of however long the franchiuse exists... expect the league to follow suit.

Ont he espn.com article i rerad, the man who does STAPLES center security said that they train in case these incidents happen... doesnt that mean they have already forseen the possiblity of this happening?



reasonable forseeability: a question of fact based on an objective test of whether a reasonable person would have foreseen the likelihood of injury, taking into account all the circumstances of the particular case

Now, IMO this event was unforseeable because it is an isolated incident. If we look at previous scuffles between players none ended up in the stands with fans so with this approach we can say that the events are unforseeable.

You also mentioned the LA security guy, well they train for events like this because they have to.....they probably also train for emergency bomb evacuations etc and other stuff that is unlikely to happen however is a possibility but unforseeable.
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Postby Fresh8 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:24 pm

true true... but as i said it is up to the fans to establish that a duty of care existed... they could be on a losing battle..

dont u think even though this was isolated the fans can still argue that an NBA player has no right to hop into the stands...

btw Matt... do u do legal studies or somethin?
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Postby Matt on Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:44 pm

yeah i do Business Law and in first year it covers general stuff like civili liabitlity, negligence, contracts etc.

I'm sure the fans have a case if they pursue suing. They can sue the league for not protecting them enough or just hit the Pacers with assault and battery.

I haven't really looked into it, but law suits could be flying left right center.
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Postby Drex on Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:57 pm

A couple things I want to say...
-Jackson is the bigger overreactor, more than Wallace. He was just punching fans all over. That's not self-defense, or protecting a teammate.
-Artest foul on Wallace was not that hard, but he clearly pushed him with his left arm in the air.
-Lots of players with suspensions.
-Fred Jones got punched a lot of times from behind, by some fat black guy. It was funny :lol: .
-The fan who threw the beer should get punched many times. Idiot :evil:
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Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:17 pm

Matt wrote:I'm sure the fans have a case if they pursue suing. They can sue the league for not protecting them enough or just hit the Pacers with assault and battery.


What about the fans that came onto the court to confront the Pacers players? They aren't permitted to leave the stands and come onto the court unless invited (eg if they win a chance to take a shot from midcourt for prize money).
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Postby Alcoholic on Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:20 pm

When Artest was on the guy w/ black shirt, someone splashed their drink right in Artest's face, and Jackson went and slugged that guy before he got held back.
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Postby Matt on Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:29 pm

Andrew wrote:
Matt wrote:I'm sure the fans have a case if they pursue suing. They can sue the league for not protecting them enough or just hit the Pacers with assault and battery.


What about the fans that came onto the court to confront the Pacers players? They aren't permitted to leave the stands and come onto the court unless invited (eg if they win a chance to take a shot from midcourt for prize money).


i'd say it could be joint liability where poth parties are guilty, however the players most likely would be scrutinized more severely because of their abuse of power, especially where they suckerpunched fans. When fans came after Artest and he punched them I'm not sure what can be done, I mean he was attacked so it was self defence but i guess the damage is already done.
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Postby Fresh8 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:41 pm

The fans do have a case.

In reference to Andrew, When the ppl bought their tickets they enter into a legally bound contract and I believe that stepping onto the court was probably a term of the 'contract'. If so, depending on whther this was a condition or warranty, the contract was breached. Therefore once it was breached, the Pistons' seecurity wouldnt be liable for their actions. Of course i dont know whether this term does exist but its something that the Pistons could look into as a defence....

With Artest hitting the fan, I dont think the Pistons would be liable for his safety since he went after Artest but depending on wat really happened, I'm not sure. Did the fan actually attack Artest?
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Postby NNpF on Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:10 pm

Sit wrote:The fans do have a case.

In reference to Andrew, When the ppl bought their tickets they enter into a legally bound contract and I believe that stepping onto the court was probably a term of the 'contract'. If so, depending on whther this was a condition or warranty, the contract was breached. Therefore once it was breached, the Pistons' seecurity wouldnt be liable for their actions. Of course i dont know whether this term does exist but its something that the Pistons could look into as a defence....

With Artest hitting the fan, I dont think the Pistons would be liable for his safety since he went after Artest but depending on wat really happened, I'm not sure. Did the fan actually attack Artest?


The guy just walked right in front of Artest and started saying something, although nobody knows what he said, and Artest punched him.

As for their not being enough security. First of all, even if their was more security, do you really think that anybody could have stopped Artest from getting into the stands? I mean unless they place security behind the scorers table having more security wouldn't have helped.

The security could have helped very little yesterday, Artest got up there so fast that nobody could have stopped him, I doubt anybody sitting at the scorers table would have tried to stop him. And then as he was walking away there was no security to escort him anywhere, what's up with that? The security yesterday was terrible, as soon as Artest got out of the stands there should have been someone from security right there to grab him and escort him to the locker room.

So whatever the security were doing yesterday, they didn't do a very good job.
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Postby Old School Fool on Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:20 pm

EGarrett wrote:My question is: After Artest beat up the guy in the stands...why was he just walking around, completely unrestrained and free to get into a brawl with two more guys seconds later?


The Game wasn't called yet. So they weren't allowed to go back to the Locker Room yet.
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Postby 8-Hype on Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:30 pm

Man, Pacers almost won. The Magic had clearly better chances. Jones missed the three pointer at the buzzer.
benji wrote:It's getting too sickening to listen to people siding with barbarians

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Postby Arcane on Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:32 pm

I tell you what though, it would be interesting to see a detroit court/stadium patch update with beer water towels and bodies all over the court.
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Postby Fresh8 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:52 pm

hey- are Detroit liable for their employees... or are the security part of a diferent company?

i meant the Detroit Security wouldnt be liable for the actions of those who jumped onto the court in case there has benn any misunderstanding.

This is just one big ugly mess...
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Postby Sauru on Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:32 pm

unfortunatly for me i had typed out a really long reply earlier and the forum screwed up on me and i had forgot to copy prior to hitting submit so i lost it. i will try to think of what i had typed this morning...

no matter what a fan does a player cannot enter the stands. they are paid a huge sum on money to be above anything that goes on there. should the fans be allowed to charge the court if a nba player throws a ball or kicks a ball into the stands? what about when rodman kicked the camera man? did he have a right to bash rodman in the head for it? just cause someone does something stupid is no reason for you to react in a stupid way.

hmm thats all i can remember from this morning right now, too bad too cause i spent over 10 min on the post lol. well anyway i am glad to see the pacer players getting the indefinet suspension, they earned it. i would like to hear about any arrests made for the fans that acted like idiots. mainly the guy who threw the chair, the guy in the blue who at frist tried to pull artest off of someone but then sucker punched him, and the guy who attacked fred from behind. i noticed people only seem to care what happened to the players but when that chair came flying in it hit a guy in a red jacket square on the head. i didnt see this guy fly off the handle and start punching people? he just kept trying to break it all up.

that reminded me of another point. it is not the pacers job to police the game. they do not act as security either so they should have let the security and police handle the guy who threw the drink. if they never rushed the stands this fan would have been taken care of and the situation would have never happened.
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Postby iKe7in on Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:31 pm

any player who is charged with assault could still see jail time, its just not as likely, as they can easily post bail, and have great lawyers who can get them out of anything, even rape.
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Postby Fresh8 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:37 pm

Read aqn interesting pioint.... since Police, soldiers and other ppl can keep their temper why couldnt Artest do it?

I've read my fair share of articles saying Artest was wrong or right or the fans were stupid and wallace overreracted and stuff like that. There is gonna be so much bad coverage for the league that the only people who iwll change this would be Artest and Stern.

If Artest doesn't do anymore sh*t and treat all of his lawsuits professionally and Stern slaps the league with stricter rules, maybe the NBA will be safe. IMO, the NBA will not benefit one bit if both those guys don't act professionaly.

So who's fault is it? Everyone has joint responsibility. Artest for fouling and jumping into stands. Wallace for overreacting. Jackson for joining in. The fan who threw the drink. The ppl who ran onto the court. JO for pushing some guy.... thats bout it!

have great lawyers who can get them out of anything, even rape.


- please man... dont bring it up in this... it's unnecassary....
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Postby Matt on Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:00 pm

Sit wrote:The fans do have a case.

In reference to Andrew, When the ppl bought their tickets they enter into a legally bound contract and I believe that stepping onto the court was probably a term of the 'contract'. If so, depending on whther this was a condition or warranty, the contract was breached. Therefore once it was breached, the Pistons' seecurity wouldnt be liable for their actions. Of course i dont know whether this term does exist but its something that the Pistons could look into as a defence....

With Artest hitting the fan, I dont think the Pistons would be liable for his safety since he went after Artest but depending on wat really happened, I'm not sure. Did the fan actually attack Artest?


actually, when you buy tickets you don't enter a contract, even if all the details and conditions are on the back unless you know the details of the contract before you buy that ticket i.e a clearly visible sign giving all conditions and terms before you buy your tickets.

i get the feeling we'll see harsher penalties than ever before

edit: just pulled this from realgm

According to Ben Maller and Chris Landry of Fox Sports Radio the outcome from Friday's riot in Detroit could be devistating for the already injury depleated Indiana Pacers, who could lose their top three players for a combined 70 games through suspension.

The exact length of the suspensions could be announced by the league as early as Sunday night, but Maller and Landry have learned from Pistons play-by-play man Fred McLeod that the NBA plans to suspend Ron Artest for 30 games. Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson are both expected to receive 20 game suspensions, while Pistons forward Ben Wallace will only miss five.


gotta agree with that
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Postby Matthew on Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:59 pm

Becuase your love child Ben Wallace gets off scot free almost...

These suspensions are a crock. What they are saying is fans are entitled to physically assualt the players, and the players cannot retaliate. I hate the way the NBA has been run lately.. I'd love to see a fan throw a beer at David Stern and see him not retaliate back.
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Postby J@3 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:12 pm

There's no way humanly possible David Stern would retaliate like that. Not a chance in hell.
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Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:13 pm

Stating the obvious, but that's really going to hurt Indiana if that's what the NBA decides. I wonder if the suspensions will be staggered or if they will all be effective immediately.
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Postby Matthew on Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:20 pm

There's no way humanly possible David Stern would retaliate like that. Not a chance in hell.

But lets see how he feels if someone was to throw a beer on him. Then maybe he would understand why Artest reacted the way he did. The only smart thing the nba did was not suspend rasheed wallace. He was the only piston trying to break it up. Those fucking stupid fans... I can't believe the NBA is basically saying "you're right" to them by punishing the pacer players. This is bullshit.
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