2017 NBA Finals: Warriors vs. Cavs part 3

[Sauru]

they should just auction off the 12th man spot. who wants a ring? the spot goes to the highest bidder

Since they're over the cap, it'll be like the lowest bidder lol

dont even need to be a player in the nba just sign whoever you want for a free ring. bill murray 2018 nba champion

[debiler]

they should just auction off the 12th man spot. who wants a ring? the spot goes to the highest bidder

Since they're over the cap, it'll be like the lowest bidder lol

dont even need to be a player in the nba just sign whoever you want for a free ring. bill murray 2018 nba champion

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!! What an idea! Somebody please pitch this to Bill...

[shadowgrin]

I feel like that's part of the plot for Space Jam 2.

[Dee4Three]

Fans complaining about "super-teams" need to study their NBA history - the 60s Celtics, the best Wilt teams, Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Jordan's Bulls - those teams were stacked like the Warriors. Shit, the 80s was great BECAUSE of the Lakers & Celtics playing in so many Finals. I love dynasties - it gives other teams something to shoot for. If you want to beat them, then these owners need to step up their game and run their franchises better (are you listening James Dolan & Phil Jackson)?

But I do agree Durant took the easy way out. He left a contender that should have beaten GS last year to join an already stacked team. That was disappointing. I wanted to see another Warrior-Thunder conference finals.


What do the Cavs need to beat the Warriors next season? At least 2 more TWO-WAY wing players. The cats they have now are useless on defense.

I don't have the link, but Samuel L. Jackson was roasting Deron Williams on Twitter.

I agree with some of this, however I'll post what I posted earlier in this thread. It's more the way the teams are coming together now, as opposed to the fact that they are a super team. For example, Durant's move was a total coward move in my opinion, the Warriors WERE homegrown... until well... Durant lost to them and joined them immediately next season.... Look at my examples below. I don't care about super talented teams, but if players take the easy way out (Durant), I lose a bit of respect. If players are acquired in trade (A team gives up a lot of assets/draft picks for a player) that is also different. That is management trading a player, not the player bolting in free agency for an easier ride. Look at my examples of how those 80's/90's teams came together.


In regards to the differences between "super teams".

Only people who don't know a lot about basketball or it's history would compare Barkley going to the Rockets. Barkley, Drexler and Olajuwon all turned 33 in the 96-97 season when they joined. All outside of primes. It's not even close to the same thing. Also, Drexler to Houston was a trade (Involving Otis Thorpe, who was loved in Houston), and when Barkley joined the Rockets, it was via Trade as well (Barkley was traded for Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Chucky Brown and Mark Bryant.) Comparing "The Decision", where 2 players in apex primes joined another player in his prime via free agency, to put on a WWE style presentation with "WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS!!!!" and "Not one, not two, not three, not four" etc is a really, really bad comparison. It's not even close to the same thing.

And in regards to KG, he loved Minnesota, and wanted to stay. KG is as loyal as they come. He was pushed out, and the Wolves received 7 players for him (again, Big Al who was a 20 and 10 guy). If Garnett hadn't been pushed out, I believe he would still have been in Minnesota being the alpha there. Ray Allen was ALSO traded to the Celtics, so not via free agency. He was traded for Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak and the fifth overall pick (Who ended up being Jeff Green). Again, two trades that brought KG and Allen to Boston, completely different.

Bringing up the Celtics of the 80's is laughable as well. Kevin McHale was DRAFTED by the Celtics, and grew with the team. Parish put up solid numbers with Golden State, but he wasn't an all star, and he was also part of a draft day TRADE to Boston in 1980 (The same year they drafted Kevin McHale). Those 3 grew together, and were great. That "Super Team" of Celtics came together entirely different. It's just like Magic/Kareem/Worthy, Magic was drafted by the Lakers who already had Kareem (who was 33 at the time, btw), and later the Lakers drafted Worthy. So Magic and Worthy both grew into who they were with the team, from the start. How in the world can anybody compare what is happening now in the NBA with Free Agents to any of this? You can't.

With Pippen, he was traded for on draft day by the Bulls, and Horace Grant was drafted by the Bulls, and they grew along with Jordan together to form the Bulls first 3 championships. That was far from a stacked team, they used what they had (of course, having the greatest player of all time, Jordan) and won 3 titles in a really tough league. When Rodman Joined, it's because he was unhappy with the Spurs, and Robinson and him didn't mesh, he was also TRADED to Chicago. So Pippen was homegrown from the draft, and Rodman was traded to Chicago, how is that similar in anyway? Again, you can't compare.

The people who compare the situations don't know what they are talking about.

[air gordon]

the celtics already did their part by not trading the number 1 pick. now its a matter of signing big name free agents which is not always easy for cold weather teams. also they really need to avoid giving thomas a max

So who should they go after? I think we've agreed they need a pf

Or is someone like Hayward a priority?

[hova-]

Am I the only one who feels like the level of contested shot making has increased to an amount were it feels hard to watch sometimes?

I mean, I was rooting for the Cavs in game 5 just to get a longer series, but at times it really made me go crazy to see well contested and defended shots go in - especially Durants shots.

Watching basketball and rooting for one team is always hard since you have zero influence on the game. But when you feel like your team does a good job defensively it is really disheartening.

Then again, some of the finishes around the rim by Lebron and Kyrie are simply breathtaking as well. I don't want to talk badly about the last decades (because I know we have a lot of nostalgic guys on the forum and I feel like some legends will never be reached by today's players), but in my opinion the game has risen to a different level in certain areas like shooting and finishing. (whereas defense and of course post game have become worse for example)

Any opinions?

[Dee4Three]

Am I the only one who feels like the level of contested shot making has increased to an amount were it feels hard to watch sometimes?

I mean, I was rooting for the Cavs in game 5 just to get a longer series, but at times it really made me go crazy to see well contested and defended shots go in - especially Durants shots.

Watching basketball and rooting for one team is always hard since you have zero influence on the game. But when you feel like your team does a good job defensively it is really disheartening.

Then again, some of the finishes around the rim by Lebron and Kyrie are simply breathtaking as well. I don't want to talk badly about the last decades (because I know we have a lot of nostalgic guys on the forum and I feel like some legends will never be reached by today's players), but in my opinion the game has risen to a different level in certain areas like shooting and finishing. (whereas defense and of course post game have become worse for example)

Any opinions?

I think ball handling has improved over the 80's and 90's, as in more players can handle the ball at a higher level. Have you seen Al Horford push the ball on fastbreaks? He looks like a damn guard.

[NovU]

hova, How dare you!

Bird would be the best player over best player in today's league. Touching Jordan is insulting. They each could average 100 pts.

KD has no matching competitiveness, skillset. Neither has he mind of Bird. He's a loser.

Drexler > LBJ > KD, young generations should know this and I watch a lot of basketball.





Welcome back.

[Dee4Three]

hova, How dare you!

Bird would be the best player over best player in today's league. Touching Jordan is insulting. They each could average 100 pts.

KD has no matching competitiveness, skillset. Neither has he mind of Bird. He's a loser.

Drexler > LBJ > KD, young generations should know this and I watch a lot of basketball.





Welcome back.

Hyperbole.

But I am glad you are starting to come around.

[NovU]

Hyperbole my ass. It's exactly what you said in other thread. Keep lying to yourself young grasshopper.

[Dee4Three]

Hyperbole my ass. It's exactly what you said in other thread. Keep lying to yourself young grasshopper.

Wrong.

I said Jordan could average 45 in this league, I never mentioned what Bird could in my opinion. Saying 100 is an exaggeration, hyperbole.

I never called Durant a loser, I stated that I will forever look at him differently, and he's a coward for the move to GS in my opinion. He is a very skilled player. Again, I never called him a loser, that is an exaggeration, hyperbole.

I also never said that LeBron was better than Durant, so that is also a lie.

Hyperbole is an extreme exaggeration to make a point, which is what you did. You also threw in a lie.

[hova-]

hova, How dare you!

Bird would be the best player over best player in today's league. Touching Jordan is insulting. They each could average 100 pts.

KD has no matching competitiveness, skillset. Neither has he mind of Bird. He's a loser.

Drexler > LBJ > KD, young generations should know this and I watch a lot of basketball.





Welcome back.

I think there is a big problem in estimating or valueing talent and basketball IQ in comparison to today's athleticism and shooting.

I mean look at the progress of athletic coaching and working out etc. over the last 30 years. My opinion is: in no way could Larry Bird keep up with today's players since he is just too slow and too fragile. Even average athletes nowadays would be way too fast and strong for him. You can actually easily see that looking at footage (or simply how he looks ). Same goes for Magic Johnson in my opinion.
Even if their IQ gives them an edge this would be easily overcome by the fact that nowadays you have at least four players on the floor how can actually run, play passing lanes, block shots etc etc.

BUT: if you were thinking about talents like Bird, Magic, McHale etc having the possibilities of scientific progress concerning their bodies ... I could imagine them dominating like they did in the 80ies and 90ies.

Further considering shooting: the three point shot just wasn't there like it is now which has led to everybody actually adding it to their repertoire - a thing that I think most of the players back then would have been capable of adding as well - it just was not needed.

One thing about Jordan though: As he was pretty athletic anyways and working out like no one else at that time PLUS the fact that he was one of the best mid range and post up shooters ever I think he would indeed be able to dominate the league today. For the other "legends" of the 80ies and 90ies .... not so sure. The pace is too high, too much shooting - putting them directly into a time machine and bringing them to 2k17 they'd be lost. Talent-wise I am sure they are on top.

About rule changes ... I am not sure if all that stuff about hand-checking and playing harder back in the days is really a point to bring up. Well, maybe you had to absorb more contact on offense - but then again you could just hack on defense which made it easier for cheap defenders to be hidden. Further body control has gone to new heights as players have done so in the modern era ... Russell Westbrook can absorb contact as well as players back then since he is so athletic that even small pushes have to be absorbed.

[Dee4Three]

Somebody did an article on something similar, check it out.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2471644-nba-then-and-now-would-yesterdays-legends-still-dominate-today


You mentioned Magic in the speed department, I completely disagree. If you watch footage of Magic, he flies up and down the floor. Same with say, the Blazers teams of 89-90 through 91-92, they are flying up and down the floor. That team was really ruggid as well (Have you seen Kersey and Buck Williams), they were strong as well. Magic would be perfectly fine running an NBA team in todays NBA, in my opinion. Even in 95-96, the chubbier Magic had no problem keeping up (After being retired since 91-92). He played some point and some PF that year.

Bird was more athletic than he is being given credit for, I don't see that Peja was anymore athletic than Bird on the floor. I feel Bird could keep up as well. Many of these guys were not JACKED, but they were really well conditioned. Wilt Chamberlain was an Olympic sprinter.... And di you just call Larry Bird fragile? He didn't hurt his back playing basketball, Bird was the toughest around at the time. You think his body couldn't take the beating of an NBA player today? I bet he absolutely could.

I think these players are more conditioned, and more athletic than you give them credit for.

This is chubby Magic in 95-96, his first game back.

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1990 Game 7 Blazers vs Spurs: Look at the pace. Look how quick Duckworth is for being a bit chubby.

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This is a broken down, horrible back Larry Bird in 91-92, getting up the floor with the Pacers just fine.

phpBB [video]

Look at the pace, and all the athletes on the floor.

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You stated that you have 4 players on the floor nowadays that can actually run, play passing lanes, block shots etc... what am I missing? I see plenty of running and speed, and good defense.


How could those players not keep up on the floor in a game like this. This pace and athleticism doesn't look superior to the chubby Magic video from 95-96.

phpBB [video]

[[Q]]

Am I the only one who feels like the level of contested shot making has increased to an amount were it feels hard to watch sometimes?

I mean, I was rooting for the Cavs in game 5 just to get a longer series, but at times it really made me go crazy to see well contested and defended shots go in - especially Durants shots.

Watching basketball and rooting for one team is always hard since you have zero influence on the game. But when you feel like your team does a good job defensively it is really disheartening.

Then again, some of the finishes around the rim by Lebron and Kyrie are simply breathtaking as well. I don't want to talk badly about the last decades (because I know we have a lot of nostalgic guys on the forum and I feel like some legends will never be reached by today's players), but in my opinion the game has risen to a different level in certain areas like shooting and finishing. (whereas defense and of course post game have become worse for example)

Any opinions?

They should Nerf that in the next patch

[NovU]

hova, I do not have concretely formed opinion to your question.

It's kinda insane to claim a player from 2 or 3 decades ago could dominate at the level they did in today's league. I believe the similar notion existed in Jordan's era in regards to Wilt and Russell. The game just has gradually changed so much. I guess that's a major reason why we often resort to other means like stats and highlighted game/season to see who played their respective era better.

That said, I do think today's players are way too often overlooked as "soft" "weak" and whatever you hear from stupid people and media. Isn't talent what matters the most? Everything else is secondary. But then I guess entertainment value matters a lot as a selling point. I just despise this being used way too frequently as an 'end it all' argument against today's players in favor of older gen players.



I guess I remember you as one that changed my view on Dirk. Good discussion once again.

[hova-]

Somebody did an article on something similar, check it out.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2471644-nba-then-and-now-would-yesterdays-legends-still-dominate-today


You mentioned Magic in the speed department, I completely disagree. If you watch footage of Magic, he flies up and down the floor. Same with say, the Blazers teams of 89-90 through 91-92, they are flying up and down the floor. That team was really ruggid as well (Have you seen Kersey and Buck Williams), they were strong as well. Magic would be perfectly fine running an NBA team in todays NBA, in my opinion. Even in 95-96, the chubbier Magic had no problem keeping up (After being retired since 91-92). He played some point and some PF that year.

Bird was more athletic than he is being given credit for, I don't see that Peja was anymore athletic than Bird on the floor. I feel Bird could keep up as well. Many of these guys were not JACKED, but they were really well conditioned. Wilt Chamberlain was an Olympic sprinter....

I think these players are more conditioned, and more athletic than you give them credit for.

You stated that you have 4 players on the floor nowadays that can actually run, play passing lanes, block shots etc... what am I missing? I see plenty of running and speed, and good defense.

I don't want to discredit the players of the 90ies and 80ies. They were great in many ways. But: physical specimen like we have them nowadays, with the long arms and the big strides as well as ridiculous leaping ability and lateral quickness were much more rare back then.

Bird was quick - no doubt - especially the footspeed is something I think they have always been working on - it's so important for basketball. But the strenght and the verticals as well as the conditioning - I doubt it was on the same level. I always imagine Magic trying to guard a Westbrook or a Harden ... do you think he could do it? Most of these "legends" were definitely in the upper category of speed and conditioning - that was as much a requirement for being an all-star as it is nowadays. But since the average player could be a Bill Wennington, Adam Keefe or Sam Perkins ... the stars back then seemed to play against less athletic opponents.

Today you will face guys like Iman Shumpert, who has almost no bball IQ, ball handling and finishing, but will still be able to haunt you because of his body.

About Bird: with his back problems and thus affected core strenght could you imagine him being able to go against the athletic 6-6 to 6-8 prototype wing man in the NBA today? He could fake them out, sure, with his cleverness, but dominate? I am not sure. I see that when I watch my man Dirk playing over the last four years. He can still put up nice numbers, but he has to be hidden defensively and does not dominate anymore.

You combine Bird with Peja from that body standpoint ... well is Peja a "legend"? He was a pure shooter who actually profitted from being part of one of the best working teams that never won a championship.


@Novu: I actually cannot remember how I changed your view of Dirk but glad I did.

[Dee4Three]

Thank you for expanding a bit more.

The difference with Dirk now is he's actually old for the NBA, he intentionally got rail thin in order to prolong his career. Have you seen Dirk in 01-02, 02-03, 03-04? He flew up and down the court with ease. Dirk is just older now, that is completely different.

Bird and Peja athletic wise, skill wise Bird by a mile. Peja was not great in the post, Bird could turn and fade on anybody, and he had other moves down low, he was also a much better rebounder and could get his points that way, a higher basketball IQ in general. So yes, Pejas athleticism was fine for him to average mid 20 PPG in this league, Bird as a basketball player is far better. So Bird would be better than fine in this league.

Anybody, any era, has issues with Westbrook. Nobody can stay in front of Westbrook. Defensively on the guards in todays game, Magic would be perfectly fine in my opinion.

Again, thanks for expanding though.

You mention Adam Keefe and Bill Wennington, those were not average, they were not good at all. I can say NBA comparisons to them now would be a bench center like Jeff Withey and Jerami Grant for Keefe (Not saying playstyle). Keefe only started for one year of his career.

[Dee4Three]

Look at Dirk get up and down the floor, and his strength.

phpBB [video]

Dirk would absolutely be amazing in todays NBA when he was in his prime (and younger years). Look what he did in the 10-11 playoffs when he wasn't this athletic.

[[Q]]

Nah Dirk in today's NBA would be a soft 3 point shooting camper like Anthony Tolliver. Playing before the dantoni/analytics era (let's face it, he started it) allowed Dirk to get stronger and work on his post game.

[hova-]

Thank you for expanding a bit more.

The difference with Dirk now is he's actually old for the NBA, he intentionally got rail thin in order to prolong his career. Have you seen Dirk in 01-02, 02-03, 03-04? He flew up and down the court with ease. Dirk is just older now, that is completely different.

Bird and Peja athletic wise, skill wise Bird by a mile. Peja was not great in the post, Bird could turn and fade on anybody, and he had other moves down low, he was also a much better rebounder and could get his points that way, a higher basketball IQ in general. So yes, Pejas athleticism was fine for him to average mid 20 PPG in this league, Bird as a basketball player is far better. So Bird would be better than fine in this league.

Anybody, any era, has issues with Westbrook. Nobody can stay in front of Westbrook. Defensively on the guards in todays game, Magic would be perfectly fine in my opinion.

Again, thanks for expanding though.

You mention Adam Keefe and Bill Wennington, those were not average, they were not good at all. I can say NBA comparisons to them now would be a bench center like Jeff Withey and Jerami Grant for Keefe (Not saying playstyle). Keefe only started for one year of his career.

All in all it's something that cannot be proven, but if you think these players would still be dominating then I ask myself how all the improvements of medical treatment/nutrition/sleeping/fitness have actually influenced the league? My point is still that the average ability of players has become better, making the top guys having to work even harder (especially with the disappearance of big immobile trees) and being athletically superior. It's a hypothesis that cannot be denied nor be proven.

But I see your point.

Nah Dirk in today's NBA would be a soft 3 point shooting camper like Anthony Tolliver. Playing before the dantoni/analytics era (let's face it, he started it) allowed Dirk to get stronger and work on his post game.

I dont think so. Dirk has always been a scorer. Yes he was shooting a lot but if you look at his fundamentals, his left hand, his finishing around the rim and the use of the shot fake even in his early days (as well as the quickness for a 7 footer) he would definitely be more than a shooter

[Dee4Three]

Nah Dirk in today's NBA would be a soft 3 point shooting camper like Anthony Tolliver. Playing before the dantoni/analytics era (let's face it, he started it) allowed Dirk to get stronger and work on his post game.

You are kidding... right? Did you watch the 10-11 playoffs.... even Dirks corpse now after he's lost all his athleticism is better than Toliver.

This statement hurts my soul... in his athletic prime he was on the end of fastbreaks and going one on one to get to the hoop. You are way off.

[shadowgrin]

If Nash could win 2 consecutive MVP with the new (now current) rules then I have no doubt that Bird would at least be an all-star every season today.

you could just hack on defense which made it easier for cheap defenders to be hidden

Players who have less than satisfactory defense can be hidden in today's game too.
Stick that player to guarding the corner or wing and have him help out on the occasional double team when the ball goes to the post. Similar to how the Celtics did with Isaiah Thomas.

[Dee4Three]

Not one NBA coach, ever, would use a guy like Dirk like Tolliver. Even if they tried to make him a spot up shooter, Dirk had the skill to step in and shoot or make a move, he would also have more fastbreak points and second chance points as a superior rebounder.

Dirk has an IMMENSE amount more skill. He blows away Porzingis talent wise in every way, and strength and athleticism wise, but you think Prozingis is better than Tolliver I'm sure.

See how that doesn't make sense? Dirk would be a complete juggernaut in is athletic prime today.

phpBB [video]

[shadowgrin]

Fun fact: out of the 7 games T-Mac guarded Dirk in the playoffs, Dirk only had one good game.

[air gordon]

If Nash could win 2 consecutive MVP with the new (now current) rules then I have no doubt that Bird would at least be an all-star every season today.

you could just hack on defense which made it easier for cheap defenders to be hidden

Players who have less than satisfactory defense can be hidden in today's game too.
Stick that player to guarding the corner or wing and have him help out on the occasional double team when the ball goes to the post. Similar to how the Celtics did with Isaiah Thomas.

Yes and no with IT. works against wanna be and scrub teams like the wiz and bulls

Not against the elite teams.