What an UGLY league this has become.

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What an UGLY league this has become.

Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:47 pm

Magic 68, Knicks 75
11/3/2003 TD WaterHouse Centre, Orlando, FL

Combined FGs - 50-156 .321
Combined 3's - 5-28 .179
Combined Points 143

Timberwolves 73, Raptors 56
11/1/2003 Target Center, Minneapolis, MN

Toronto 19 FGs 18 Turnovers
Toronto 19-69 FGs

Bucks 98, Bulls 68
11/1/2003 Bradley Center, Milwaukee, WI


Rockets 71, Grizzlies 79
11/1/2003 Toyota Center, Houston, TX

Rockets 24 Field Goals - 24 Turnovers
Combined 59-150 FGs .393
Combined 5-28 3PT FGs .179


Nets 84, Timberwolves 61
10/31/2003 Continental Airlines Arena, East Rutherford, NJ

Minnesota 26 Turnovers - 25 Field Goals
Combined 4-25 3PT FGs
Minnesota 1 player in double figure scoring. (K. Garnett)

I am watching the Bulls/Rockets now, Chicago has 61 points with 5:29 in the 4th Quarter.

Some games have been around 100-99 or so and that's acceptable, but not really that entertaining. Dallas scored a bunch recently as did Rashard Lewis and the Sonics.


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Tim Floyd, Head Coach of New Orleans
55 Wins
191 Losses :shock:
This is the worst winning percentage of any coach in any sport in the USA leagues, including NHL, NFL or MLB.

If Floyd won 60 games over the next three years his record would be:
232-251
Still a loser!
Yes he coached the Bulls and they stunk, who's fault is that? Tim Floyd, players don't take losses, he should have been fired, and never hired at this level again, Sure can Paul Silas for a guy who has won 22% of his games, makes sense to me. :applaud:
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Postby bballer22 on Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:05 pm

give them all a break, all of those team u mentioned have good new player and some are trying to work out what the hell they are doing due to loss of good players!

y dont u look at vet team like LAL, or Dalas ro Phil, or Sac?
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Postby Stevan on Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:27 pm

Has a week passed since the season opened? Because if it has... all the teams should be playing like it's playoff time. :idea:
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Postby Andrew on Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:35 pm

I have to admit, the Bulls losses have been ugly. Normally I'm not so upbeat about not having NBA coverage but just looking at the boxscores, I'm glad I didn't watch those three losses. Defeated by an average margin of 29 points. :cry:
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Postby scubilete on Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:41 pm

Normally I'm not so upbeat about not having NBA coverage but just looking at the boxscores, I'm glad I didn't watch those three losses. Defeated by an average margin of 29 points.


(Y) :lol: , that's a team who has a favorable schedule, imagine if it weren't that favorable.

Regarding not having NBA coverage, probably just LeBron fans are happy of having any other than their local teams NBA coverage. :wink: I think whenever ESPN has the schedule of showing & LeBron is not playing, they will replay last LeBron game, he's TV now, (Y)
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Postby Full Surface on Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:53 pm

The Bulls are not playing like they could be. I thought Scottie would boost them up to make them a playoff calibur team but his leadership isn't making too much of a difference to get the team to win games.
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Postby air gordon on Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:32 am

i don't think red auerbach could have done a better job with the team the bulls had the year after the strike shortened year....

it's disappointing to see the bulls start off this way. i think it's a combination of poor coaching/failing to execute, selfish play, and the fact that there isn't much chemistry between the starting 5 since rose missed all of the exhibition games and pip was out for a majority of them as well.

it's a crap start but it's still early
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Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:47 am

i don't think red auerbach could have done a better job with the team the bulls had the year after the strike shortened year....


I agree they were probably not very good to begin with, but Auerbach would have coached them better than Tim Floyd, somehow I just think so, next I would think that Red Auerbach would have never got into such a pickle, he was the Head of Basketball Operations for 11 championship teams he coached.
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Postby Jackal on Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:21 am

crawford4MIP4real wrote:it's a crap start but it's still early


Exactly, it's still early, a few more games and they will get it going, I hope. Bulls have a chance this season to make the playoffs, now only if Curry and Chandler can get it going.
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Postby Stevan on Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

Chandler has been good to start with, his stats atleast show traces of effort. Curry has been disappointing.

After the houston game Stevie Francis said that the Bulls were selfish and played individually rather than as a team.

Tyson Chandler: 13.3ppg, 17.7rpg, 2.3bpg. Only 41% from the floor however, but 80% from the line. He hasn't taken many shots though, probably gets most of his opportunities from offensive boards (about 6 a game).

So far Jamal Crawford's assist totals have sucked donkey balls. He's shooting the ball more than anyone. (n)
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Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:43 pm

http://www.nba.com/games/20031104/DENIND/boxscore.html

Denver's Starters

5-41 FGs [12%] for 15 Points

VOSHON LENARD 0-6
ANDRE MILLER 3-9
NENE HILARIO 0-2
CARMELO ANTHONY 1-13 (no rebounds or assists)
MARCUS CAMBY 1-11

Denver 23 FGs and 23 Turnovers.
10 points in the 1st Quarter
7 in the 3rd Quarter

For Indiana
Jermaine O'Neal - 25 Points, 20 Rebounds & 3 Blocks.
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Postby air gordon on Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:12 pm

chandler is the only bright spot for the bulls right now. bulls probably are winless if he doesn't play that atlanta game.

stevan is right.. the bulls dont run plays for him. he's get his points cleaning up everyone else's garbage. it's encouraging to see him take the ball strong on his put backs and making the fts



steve francis was right with his postgame comments about the bulls

for the denv/ind game...credit artest and harrington for doing a great defensive job on anthony
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Postby smithy_17 on Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:37 am

i check the nba scores everyday and can´t believe my eyes. in germany there´s no nba-coverage on free tv. i thought i might perhaps buy premiere (exclusive channel covering nba games), but now i´ve dumped that idea ´cause i don´t want to see b-ball games where only 30% of the shots are falling. i like hard fought, defense-minded b-ball, but that´s too much.

will david stern again change the rules as a result, what do you think? i think they should get rid of the zone defense. another change that would make the game more interesting would be to make the court wider. the size of the court as it was designed more than 100 years ago just doesn´t fit athletic players of today. what do you think?
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Postby EGarrett on Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:12 am

It's the first few games of the season...the teams aren't exactly go to be humming machines.

You really should work on that negative attitude...buck up cowboy...
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Postby Jackal on Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:23 am

EGarrett wrote:You really should work on that negative attitude...buck up cowboy...


Hmm, it is his opinon, if he wants it to be negative, I don't see the problem.
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Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:33 am

You call it negativity, I call it pointing out that the fundamentals and coaching these days is horrible.

I don't care if it's the beginning of the season or not, look at those numbers and tell me it's not ugly.

So 60 games from now this will somehow improve?

These guys have been playing basketball their whole lives, not 4 games!

This is a legitimate post with facts and and an opinion, what is the problem?

Maybe I should come here and point out all the love and harmony around the league?

buck up cowboy...


Excuse me?
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Postby EGarrett on Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:00 am

Psycho Jackal wrote:Hmm, it is his opinon, if he wants it to be negative, I don't see the problem.


I didn't say there was a problem...

You call it negativity,


If most everything you post is about how such and such player is a jerk and the league is ugly...this post doesn't belong here...etc etc....it's negativity...pessimism...whatever you want to call it. You'll give yourself an ulcer if you're not careful.

I call it pointing out that the fundamentals and coaching these days is horrible.


This is just another form of one of the oldest cliches on earth. People idealize the old days in everything...not just basketball. In the 70's people were saying fundamental basketball was dead when guys like Pete Maravich showed up. If you want I could find you a note about how the youth of today has no respect for their elders and no discipline etc that was written in middle ages...same principle.

I don't care if it's the beginning of the season or not, look at those numbers and tell me it's not ugly.


The guys haven't played a complete games with their teams for months...some for half a year. They're going to be sloppy at first. It's nothing new.

So 60 games from now this will somehow improve?


Yes. That's how shaking off rust works...

This is a legitimate post with facts and and an opinion, what is the problem?


If it's not a reminder or a warning...there isn't a problem...just my personal opinion.

Excuse me?


It means the same thing as "hakuna matata."
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Postby smithy_17 on Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:52 pm

:? strange discussion going on here. just wanted to raise a question. if someone describes a state of sth., which in his opinion isn´t too good he does not necessarily have a negative attitude.

i just think that they might think about getting rid of zone-D and in the long run maybe even the court size may have to be adjusted. even nba players think of permitting zone again (like mcgrady recently).
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Postby BIG GREEN on Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:41 am

I agree with your post there EG..especially about people idealizing the old days. I've already started doing the same thing and im only 21. (y)
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Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:01 pm

EGarrett
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wrote:
In the 70's people were saying fundamental basketball was dead when guys like Pete Maravich showed up.


What the hell are you talking about? Pete Maravich was one of the greatest basketball players ever, he has nothing to do with the lack of points being scored today, his style of play was fancy and maybe some thought it lacked fundamentals, but there is no connection to this conversation.

I am not some old geezer saying "These kids today" or "Back in the old days...".
I am saying what Marv Albert described during the Nets/Pacers game:
"If you think the scoring is down in the NBA right now, it is, our stats guy did some checking and through this many games, this is the lowest scoring in NBA History dating back to the inception of the 24-second clock."

Look buddy, I can be disappointed if I want to, it's not over nothing, it's about the league being a watered down hyped up blackhole of shit.

Adding Charlotte is about hype and money and serves no other purpose, it's completely illogical to allow one team to leave that city and start another team there a couple years later. I know about the Cleveland Browns and the Baltimore Ravens, that is a different story and makes not one point to help the Charlotte discussion.

All these young players today (I am not old, not more than 10 years older than what should be a first year player)
jumping from HS and the NCAA is horrible for the NBA, all the young kids think LeBron and Melo are so cool, but they lack fundamentals. Darko Milicic is the best example of a 17-year-old with not one clue of how to play NBA top level basketball, but he's taken #3 overall and will probably sit on the Pistons bench for two years.
I am glad they are changing the rule to 20-years-old to enter the NBA, at least these kids will go to college and learn to play ball, before entering the bench of some team, like Kobe, TMac, Garnett, J. O'Neal and Darko.

Darius Miles will probably never become a good player, nor will Kwame Brown. They might have been better off going from level 1 to level 2 then to the next level 3. HS, College, Pro. Then you grow up slowly and develop your game, Kobe and TMac and Garnett are the exception to the rule. But none were good for a couple of years, those teams could have used more expierenced players to spend the money on.

Boston is staring right now at Kedrick Brown, who doesn't know a pick and roll from a dinner roll. Yeah I think he played some JC ball or something, but they don't really teach much there. I believe coaching in HS is okay, but the NCAA teaches much better ball.

I think the zone defense and some referee calls (rules) are playing a big part in the low scoring, but mainly it's too many teams, too many young no nothing players, too much street ball attitude (not Pete Maravich) ghetto ball, it's not racist either, Mike Miller and Jason Williams play ghetto trash as shitty as the next guy.

If you want I could find you a note about how the youth of today has no respect for their elders and no discipline etc that was written in middle ages...same principle.


Find a note?

What the hell are you talking about "respect for their elders"?

Where have mentioned elders and youth?

They don't have respect for themselves and the game, that is what I am saying.

The guys haven't played a complete games with their teams for months...some for half a year. They're going to be sloppy at first. It's nothing new.


I have not idea what you are talking about here.

Yes. That's how shaking off rust works...


No it's listening, learning and throwing out that blacktop bullshit, it's not a contest to see who gets the sweetest thang going, it's about WINS and LOSES, something these clowns really need to understand. Hype doesn't win any games either.

Some look at San Antonio and wonder how they win, well they listen to their coach, check their egos, play together and sound fundamental basketball, achored by Tim Duncan, Mr. Fundamental.

The Lakers with all they have are losing right now by 7 points to San Antonio without Duncan, Parker and Anthony Carter. Hype and big names do not equal victories. Maybe San Antonio will blow the lead, but I doubt it. Just look closely at Dallas this year, I really have watched them, they like an identity, a plan. It will kill them if they allow the least dependable and wildest player I have ever seen run their team into the ground. Walker is not the answer to any question that involves fundamental wins. He had 17 rebounds tonight, but was 6-20 from the floor and had 9 turnovers. It's what I mean, clowns showing how not to play the game.

I am not going to back away from the way I am. I have been in this forum for at least 3 years, never worried about making friends. It's just a place to share thoughts and opinions on the league and the Live game.
I have never done anything to try to hurt anyone in this forum. Most fans hate players, hate this and that, some express it, some bang the LeBron James drum over and over. It's whatever a person wants to do.

I bring knowledge, passion and love to all my posts, I will not stop until I am not allowed to post for some reason.

Like I said the game is a mess.

Last point:
Adding Charlotte is wrong, they should kill the Miami Heat, Atlanta Hawks and Los Angeles Clippers, kill them! Hold a detraction draft and tighten up these teams, this game.

This would bring some solid players like Reef, E. Jones, B. Grant, Brand and others to teams like Denver and Cleveland. Knocking off 36 lower end players from the league. Each team in the league would get one pick from the above teams. The worst team picking first, no lottery, salary cap exceptions included. But the NBA wants more money and less skill and that is why the league scoring is down and the play is horrible, that is why the league promotes LeBron James and not veterans and real young talent like Ginobilli or Gasol. They do not dunk and run like LeBron, they are not 18. It's not about good basketball, it's about the story, the rookies are so cool, but none can play.

on and on sorry, but it's some backwards logic really, and this just after San Antoinio won the title, the NBA offices hated San Antonio winning, it's not fun and exciting, but too bad, it's right and they are wrong.


buck up cowboy... It means the same thing as "hakuna matata."


How does it mean the same thing as hakuna matata?

Hakuna matata means "no worries for the rest of your days." :?:
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Postby Jackal on Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:45 pm

paul_pierce_the_truth wrote:The Lakers with all they have are losing right now by 7 points to San Antonio without Duncan, Parker and Anthony Carter. Hype and big names do not equal victories. Maybe San Antonio will blow the lead, but I doubt it.


:lol: LOL :lol:
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Postby EGarrett on Sat Nov 08, 2003 12:07 am

Pete Maravich was one of the greatest basketball players ever, he has nothing to do with the lack of points being scored today, his style of play was fancy and maybe some thought it lacked fundamentals, but there is no connection to this conversation.


The point was that people were making the same arguments in the 70's that you are making now...just in regards to different players. That's the connection. People tend to remember the good from the old days and forget the bad...then they see the bad of today and they imagine it didn't exist back then...and they start complaining. The Pete Maravich example was for me to point out that the league isn't going down some blackhole of horribleness...it's all an illusion...here are some more examples...both approximate quotes from the NBA at 50 video that I think is still widely rentable...

George Gervin: "Our whole thing back then was running up and down the floor and shooting more times then you. Our plan was that if you shoot a hundred times...we're gonna shoot a hundred and thirty."

His team's planned to win by simply jacking up loads more shots than their opponent...does that sound like fundamental basketball? :) And keep in mind...George is talking about his whole team's philosophy...not just him.

Wilt Chamberlain (discussing the playground style of play that the video says was entering the league around the time Chamberlain retired)

"Those guys wanted to put on a show...they wanted to do something so people would go home and say 'Did you see so-and-so today? Did you see that move he made?"

And then you had guys like World B. Free from the 70's...who would shoot the ball every time he touched it..."Shake'n'Bake" Streety from the 60's...who would dribble around and through everyone with tons of tricky moves but couldn't make a jump shot to save his life...and tons more who emulated that style.

Look at Daryl Dawkins...look at the entire ABA. Bob Cousy used to take the ball in blowouts and dribble it up and down the court falling all over himself and daring the other team to try and steal it. This was the 50's...

The more things change...the more they stay the same.

I am not some old geezer saying "These kids today" or "Back in the old days...".
All these young players today (I am not old, not more than 10 years older than what should be a first year player)
jumping from HS and the NCAA is horrible for the NBA, all the young kids think LeBron and Melo are so cool, but they lack fundamentals.


Don't worry Mike...we all do it. I'm 21 like Yohance and I think the freshman at my college are ruining everything. Let's just not lose perspective...the league's not dying...fundamentals aren't dying...every generation has it's fundamental players and every generation has it's hot dogs...it'll be the same way in 10 years...and kids of today will be complaining about it. Hakuna matata...buck up cowboy...you don't have to worry about it.

(and you have to cut back on the profanity...especially directed towards me or others)
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Postby air gordon on Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:55 am

i think its pretty sad that amare stoudemire has yet to register an assist this season. especially when you consider the attention he gets from the defense in the post
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Postby Knick4Life on Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:39 pm

The most NBA games i have watched this year were really boring!! only three-four teams worth watching.
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Postby Eugene on Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:07 am

Well, Mike, I wouldn't worry so much.

In the last 51 games over the past 7 days (since Wednesday, just two days after you made you opened this topic), only 17 games saw at least 1 team fail to reach 85 points. Only 4 games had neither team break 85. By contrast, at least one team broke triple digits in 20 games, and in 8 of those games, both teams scored over a hundred. Which leaves us with 47 games in which at least one team scored over 85 points, and 34 games in which both teams scored 85+.

Some teams just aren't going to score a lot of points, like Toronto, Miami, and Orlando. But consider that Miami is a young team with a new cast and new coach, and Orlando has no one other than Mcgrady to score, it's really not that bad.

A couple of those low scoring games can be attributed to Dallas and San Antonio, but couple of those high scoring games can be attributed to those same teams. Given the choice between the two, I'd say the low scoring games were likely the fluke games.

Scoring has gone down steadily over the past few years, with the influx of younger player with less skill and a diffusion of talent over a greater number of teams. However, the situation is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Good teams are still going to be good, and bad teams are still going to be bad. That's not a new trend; that's just how it's always been.

I can understand your concern at least earlier in the season, but lots of other people had the same concern at that point in the past few years. But, as teams shake off the rust and player get used to each other and the system, and as certain players come off the injury list, the complaints and concerns go away.

And that's what I expect to happen this season as well. Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony are playing as well as any rookie in recent memory. Eastern teams are surprisingly strong. The Lakers look good and I can't wait till Kobe finally gets in shape. So, all in all, this looks like it's going to be a great season.

All the best,

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