NBA Lottery 2008

[Matthew]

They deserved to get the picks by losing games? Yes! They worked all season long for it...

[cyanide]

They deserved to get the picks by losing games? Yes! They worked all season long for it...

That is, if you're assuming they're purposely tanking rather than trying hard against superior squads. I'm more inclined to believe teams play hard to win despite chemistry issues, injuries, and inexperience.

[Matthew]

Please show me where I mentioned tanking.

[cyanide]

You don't have to say "tanking" to imply it.

They deserved to get the picks by losing games? Yes! They worked all season long for it...

[Matthew]

I couldn't care less how you interpreted what I said. You made a mistake, deal with it.

[Bruce]

I think though that the league should do something about tanking. It's stopping executives from making creative moves. Instead of trying to get talent from the draft. Teams like Dallas and San Antonio kept afloat by scouting foreign talent. Detroit put together a bunch of guys through trade (only 1 player from the draft), that mostly no one wanted, and eventually played well together.

Instead of making another trade, another sign up using the MLE, I think Pat Riley just gave up. And that is what I am really hating about the Heat right now. Had it been the Grizzlies who tanked, I'd say that wouldn't be as bad, because clearly the team needs major change.

[Andrew]

one thing i always actually agreed with is playing mostly the young guys when its clear you are not going anywhere. i understand if you have a superstar the fans want to see him play but why not get your young players on the court against the top talent(teams fighting for playoff position) and see what they are really made of? sure its tanking, but why fight to get a worse pick? if you cant make the playoffs seriously why fight only to end with a worse pick?

I'd go so far as to suggest that if Miami didn't tank and played their regular starters to the very end, they'd be criticised for not taking advantage of an opportunity to rest players who were injured and give younger players a run. Their playoff hopes died a long time before they officially ran up the white flag, teams like the Bulls, Nets and Pacers who weren't mathematically eliminated until the final weeks of the season on the other hand should be less inclined to tank.

Man, Chicago has been stacked with high draft picks the last several years. It's really disappointing to see them get another one, as there's other teams really deserving to get the top 2 projected players.

How were the Bulls undeserving of making the jump from ninth to first? They were in the lottery, the same as thirteen other teams. Furthermore, the lottery picks they've owned the last couple of years weren't theirs to begin with. Why should they be any less deserving of a high draft pick this year just because of another blunder by Isiah Thomas?

I think though that the league should do something about tanking. It's stopping executives from making creative moves. Instead of trying to get talent from the draft. Teams like Dallas and San Antonio kept afloat by scouting foreign talent. Detroit put together a bunch of guys through trade (only 1 player from the draft), that mostly no one wanted, and eventually played well together.

What can they do though? It's not as though losing is against the rules and the league should not be able to force players to play. I highly doubt that the Heat spent 82 games trying to lose 67 of them. When their season went down the tubes, they called it quits and rested players who were ailing. They didn't shave points, they didn't throw games for money, they gave up trying in a season that was already lost.

[The X]

The question is really what is tanking?

Here's my opinion:

Playing your young guys to give them experience = Not Tanking
Shutting down a key player who has been playing injured = Not Tanking
Shutting down an uninjured key player = Tanking
Letting Mark Madsen shoot treys without yanking him out of the game = Tanking

[Sauru]

thing is tanking is not guarenteed in basketball, the celtics proved that last year

[cyanide]

How were the Bulls undeserving of making the jump from ninth to first? They were in the lottery, the same as thirteen other teams. Furthermore, the lottery picks they've owned the last couple of years weren't theirs to begin with. Why should they be any less deserving of a high draft pick this year just because of another blunder by Isiah Thomas?

They won the first pick fair and square, but I found it undeserving considering the roster they currently have and their season team record was better than, say, Seattle. I thought Seattle was more deserving to have the rights to Beasley or Rose. My point is that Chicago won the first pick fair and square, but I felt that a couple of other teams would be more deserving. Seattle may end up being in the lottery again next year while Chicago may end up in the Finals.

I can understand how the ping pong balls discourages tanking (Celtics last year), but it also allows the possibility for a team to be very, very, very lucky and allows a team to be stuck in the bottom for yet another year.

Edit: As for the Bulls several high draft picks in previous years, they definitely deserve those thanks to Isiah, but to me, seeing them get the top pick this year was just disappointing. Probably because I'm bored of seeing them in the high lottery, but it's just for -this- year, I felt that other teams were more deserving, but they really got lucky.

[Sauru]

the magic got very lucky a long time ago by landing the number 1 pick 2 years in a row, too bad they didnt really turn it into more than one dissapointing finals visit.

anyway, it seems people are already saying that miami wants rose so if i am the bulls and i want beasley i work a deal out with miami to flop picks, get the player you want and something extra added in

[Andrew]

The question is really what is tanking?

Here's my opinion:

Playing your young guys to give them experience = Not Tanking
Shutting down a key player who has been playing injured = Not Tanking
Shutting down an uninjured key player = Tanking
Letting Mark Madsen shoot treys without yanking him out of the game = Tanking

I'd agree with that, perhaps not so much the last one but I'm not sure what I'd file that under (apart from being an ugly, ugly strategy). I think there's also the question of whether tanking is truly an effort to lose or simply a lack of effort in trying to win. I would say it's the latter and that there is a difference between the two.

The next question is when tanking is appropriate or indeed whether it's acceptable. I would say that it is once a team has been mathematically eliminated from playoff contention and in such situations you can't really fault a team for throwing in the towel. You could probably afford a bit of leeway there too since teams like the Heat are facing a near-impossible task even before it officially becomes impossible.

thing is tanking is not guarenteed in basketball, the celtics proved that last year

Exactly, the team with the worst record has only won the top pick twice since the current lottery format was adopted in 1994 so it's not as though tanking is a tried and true method of snagging the top pick, or even a top three pick.

They won the first pick fair and square, but I found it undeserving considering the roster they currently have and their season team record was better than, say, Seattle. I thought Seattle was more deserving to have the rights to Beasley or Rose. My point is that Chicago won the first pick fair and square, but I felt that a couple of other teams would be more deserving. Seattle may end up being in the lottery again next year while Chicago may end up in the Finals.

I see where you're coming from and obviously I'm going to see it another way given my bias towards the Bulls but I don't think anyone is really deserving or undeserving when it comes to the lottery, just lucky or unlucky.

[[Q]]

it still boggles my mind that Chicago got it with a 1.7% chance of winning.

I'd come up with a list of things that's more likely to happen but i don't have the time right now.

[Jackal]

"David Stern probably just rigged it to get the Bulls back in to top contention so that he can have the Bulls back in the finals. Michael Jordan is getting a movie made about him and everything. It's all rigged I think, the NBA is so set up. I mean, watch...this year the Knicks will stink but then they'll get LeBron James some how (Stern will see to it.) and then you'll have the Knicks battling the Bulls and the Celtics will be there and the Pistons will also be around and then the Bulls will face the Lakers and you'll see, Michael Jordan will come out of retirement just to face Kobe in the finals and will beat him with a buzzerbeater.

God, the NBA is so fucking disgusting.

Let me go watch some more of it."

[jonthefon]

Wait, so are the Bulls going to resign Deng/Gordon? At least one of them?

Because remember, all everyone was on about last year when the Bulls were contending was "OMG, they need low-post scoring, get Gasol!". A potential low-post powerhouse is in front of them.

[Sauru]

i bet the bulls are pissed they did not trade them last year when the value was way up on them

[Matthew]

John Paxson is a genius!

[Andrew]

Wait, so are the Bulls going to resign Deng/Gordon? At least one of them?

Because remember, all everyone was on about last year when the Bulls were contending was "OMG, they need low-post scoring, get Gasol!". A potential low-post powerhouse is in front of them.

Both are restricted free agents so I reckon they'll try to sign them to multiyear deals and if that falls through, extend the qualifying offer and consider trade options. I doubt the Bulls would be willing to let them walk for nothing without trying to keep them or work out a sign-and-trade first.

i bet the bulls are pissed they did not trade them last year when the value was way up on them

Maybe, but I still don't think you can blame a team for being apprehensive about giving up two of its best players who were having the finest seasons of their young careers, in a year where the team has the third best record in the conference and ultimately came close to winning 50 games and took a couple of games from the top team in the East after advancing to the second round. If the Grizzlies had been willing to settle for a deal like the one they made with the Lakers when the talks with the Bulls were going on last year then that's a different story.

Of course, after Gasol went to the Lakers a story came out that claimed the Bulls balked at sending Noah and Thabo to Memphis for Gasol which I find more disappointing if it's true. At any rate, winning the lottery might give the Bulls a chance to make up for blown opportunities and bad moves.