Who's a top 10 NBA Player?

[LakersRule24]

Should've been specific. When you compare 2 players, you look at their skill and abilities. Team play though is a complete different story.

[---]

When I mentioned his assists, I did that just to show how well he drives and dishes. Most of the time, it's gonna result in a dunk or an open jumper, which usually go down. Basically a drive and dish, most of the time, will equal an assist, or "the pass that leads to the assist". Leading the league in assists from the 2 gaurd is pretty impressive.

You make it sound like he uses and illegal move every single time he slashes. I do agree he get's some rediculous calls, but not enough to really take anything away from his slashing/ballhandling game.

About his jumpshot, yes, his three is terrible. He simply doesn't have it. If he did, he would be unstoppable defensively because defenders would have to respect that he can hit it from there and D him up tighter. One wrong move and he's gone - he's the best player going straight to the hoop in the league right now IMO.

Continuing on his jumpshot, his midrange game isn't as bad as you seem to think. If you look at Kobe's mid-long range two point jumpers on last seasons hotzone chart, you get this:

34-88
52-116
27-62
79-188
48-110
-------------
240-564

Kobe shot 42% on his mid-long range jumpers last season. Keep in mind, Kobe's seen as one of the best midrange shooters in the league. Here's Wade's:

22-64
54-144
21-50
18-53
12-25
------------
127-336

Wade shot 38% from the same range. It's not a huge gap (4%), so I think you're underestimating his jumpshot quite abit. I do agree with you on his three point shot, it is pretty unacceptable for a superstar gaurd to be shooting like that from three - but he seems to be getting along fine, doesn't he?

When you said Maggette and Wade use their athleticism purely to get to the rim, that made me laugh.Wade is one of the best players I have ever seen at splitting the double team and still getting to the rim. I believe he's the quickest 2 gaurd with the ball in his hands - not just baseline to baseline, but anywhere with any move (I count AI as a PG).

Dwyane Wade is a much, much better player than Maggette, and I think he deserves to be a top ten player undoubtedly. Something Maggette does not.

[LakersRule24]

No he doesn't use illegal moves to drive everytime, but he does it majority of the time. That's what makes his slash and dish game look so good. His turnovers are a testament to that.

Kobe is constantly doubled from outside, teams play zones focused primarily on him and he constantly has to take horrible bail out shots. That's why FG% is very misleading.

Wade uses quickness to get to the rim. That's it. When his athleticism is gone, he will not be anymore than a 15 point scorer.

And you are underestimating a prime Corey Maggette. In the 04-05 season, Maggette was a very good player. He just didn't have the ball in his hands as much as Wade.

[benji]

His turnovers are a testament to that.

In the 04-05 season, Maggette was a very good player. He just didn't have the ball in his hands as much as Wade.

Stop lying. Stats are malicious devices that mislead people on purpose, and they mean nothing. Numbers of turnovers or possessions cannot be used to evaluate players.

[---]

I don't get how his turnovers are a testament to the fact his slashing/dishing game looks so good only because he uses illegal moves. If he's getting caught on those illegal moves, he's not driving or dishing because the play would be wiped off.

I know Kobe demands the most attention from any perimeter player in the league, but it's not like Wade doesn't see his fair share of doube teams and zone defences. If your the best penetrator in the league (Wade), of course you're going to see a hell of alot of zone defence thrown your way. Wade may not get doubled from wau outside as much as Kobe, but where not talking about three point jumpers, where talking mid/long range two's. As soon as Dwyane get's a step across that three point line, he's doubled. I'd say they meet around the same level of defensive pressure against their mid/long range (two point) jumpshots.

I disagree on what you say about Wade using just quickness to get to the rim. I think he's the best ballhandler (at the SG) in the league, especially when going to the rim.

And no I'm not underestimating Corey Maggette. Corey's always been one of those players I've thought of as overlooked. It's just I don't think Corey has anything on Wade. That 04-05 season you speak about was nice, but Corey shot a pretty terrible percentage (43%). The season before that (another great season) he shot 45%. See what happens when he is given the chance to become a big factor offensively and get's the defensive pressure that goes along with that? He struggles.

Wade meets much more pressure than Maggette on a nightly basis and still puts up 27PPG on 49%+. If Maggette was really as good as Wade, he would be getting the shots that Wade get's. When he did get close (03-04/04-05), he wasn't nearly as productive.

Corey's a good player, but he's no where near Wade's level.

[LakersRule24]

They show that he is not as strong of a ballhandler as everyone makes of him.

Wade is primarily a slasher type player, he'll drive regardless of the defense thrown at him. Kobe is primarily a jumpshooter, he'll shoot regardless of the defense thrown at him. Wade shoots a jumpshot when there is one guy or when he is open. I remember a stretch last year where as soon as Kobe got to the halfcourt line, he was doubled. He was even getting doubled off the ball, which is a very rare occassion.

I'd say Kobe is a better ballhandler than Wade.

Maggette in the 03-04/04-05 season didn't get the ball nearly as much and didn't play as much minutes(yes, few stats do have their place and this is one of them) as Wade did. He also had other very good offensive players on his team where Wade in this case plays single handedly on offense.

[benji]

So stats are alright when they support your case, but meaningless when they go against it?

Well, here are some meaningless stats then. In 2003-04/2004-05 the Clippers ranked 11th and 20th on offense. In the last three years the Heat have ranked 5th, 7th and 21st on offense. And last year their two best players missed 70 some games.

didn't get the ball nearly as much and didn't play as much minutes

If only there was some way to control for this!

That 04-05 season you speak about was nice, but Corey shot a pretty terrible percentage (43%). The season before that (another great season) he shot 45%. See what happens when he is given the chance to become a big factor offensively and get's the defensive pressure that goes along with that? He struggles.

Wade meets much more pressure than Maggette on a nightly basis and still puts up 27PPG on 49%+.

Wade, last three years
points per 40: 24.9-28.2-29.0
TS%: 56-58-58

Maggette, 03-04, 04-05 and 06-07:
points per 40: 23.0-24.0-22.1
TS%: 59-57-58

Wade is primarily a slasher type player, he'll drive regardless of the defense thrown at him

62% of his attempts were jumpers last year? 60% the year before?

They show that he is not as strong of a ballhandler as everyone makes of him.

I'd say Kobe is a better ballhandler than Wade.

Last year, Kobe had a ball handling turnover on 5% of his possessions...Wade had one on...5% of his possessions. (4.8% v 5.1%)

Kobe had a bad pass on 4.4%, and offensive foul on 1.0%. Wade had 7.5% and 1.4%.

On unassisted shots, Kobe had a field goal percentage of 34%, Wade had a field goal percentage of 41%. Wade had a direct hand in 60% of his teams baskets while on the floor, Kobe 50%.

I won't get into defense beyond pointing out Wade racked up the steals and blocks as well.

[LakersRule24]

So stats are alright when they support your case, but meaningless when they go against it?

There are some stats that have their place. Minutes per game and points per game to a certain extent are one of them.

62% of his attempts were jumpers last year? 60% the year before?

51% of Duncan's attempts were jumpers. Wade's game is slashing to the game, not shooting jumpshots. His game revolves around driving and dishing, he takes an occasional bank shot on the drive at times.

[---]

Wade turns it over once more than Kobe per game. He's also using his ballhandling more often in riskier situations than Bryant - as you said he slashes more than Kobe. It's much easier to turn the ball over when you're running full speed to the rim and the defence collapses on you, than when you make a couple crossover dribbles and pull up.

I agree that Wade is drive/shoot while Kobe is shoot/drive, and that Kobe's mindset with that means he's gonna be pulling up for a jumper at times where Wade wouldn't, due to defensive pressure. I know Kobe is a much better shooter than Wade, I was just saying he only shoots 4% less from that range - more defence or not, I don't think you can say he has no jumpshot.
That's a matter of opinion, so we can't really work that out. My opinion is Wade is the better ballhandler.


Maggette 04/05

Minutes: 36.9
Shot Attempts: 14.9
Free Throws: 10.0

Field Goal Percentage: 43%
Free Throw Percentage: 85.7%

Points: 22.2

Wade 06/07

Minutes: 37.8
Shot Attempts: 18.9
Free Throws: 10.5

Field Goal Percentage: 49%
Free Throw Percentage: 80.7%

Points: 27.4


Wade played less than one more minute per game, took 4 more shots a game, half a free throw more per game and finished with 5.4 more points per game. Reason: He's more productive, ie. higher field goal percentage.

In 04/05 Maggette was surrounded by - Brand (20.0 PPG) and Simmons (16.4 PPG). no one else was in double figures, and their next highest scorer was Marko Jaric.

In 06/07 Wade was surrounded by - O'Neal (17.3 PPG), Kapono (10.9 PPG), Williams (10.9 PPG) and Udonis Haslem (10.7 PPG).

I wouldn't say Wade had far less competition offensively to get his shots off.

By the way:

He also had other very good offensive players on his team where Wade in this case plays single handedly on offense.

That works both ways - you get more shots, but it makes it much harder to score. You suddenly become the focus of the defences attention rather than working off of other players. Look what happened when Maggette became much more of a focus to the defence - he shot a career low 43% from the field. Wade continued putting up rediculous field goal percentages for a gaurd.

[benji]

There are some stats that have their place. Minutes per game and points per game to a certain extent are one of them.

What makes points per game so valuable it should be one of the two most important stats to tell you anything about a player?

[LakersRule24]

There are some stats that have their place. Minutes per game and points per game to a certain extent are one of them.

What makes points per game so valuable it should be one of the two most important stats to tell you anything about a player?

Points per game is an indicator, but it does not show whether one is a better scorer than another. It is more leading than a stat like FG%, 3FG%, or any of the basic defensive stats.

[benji]

More leading? Elaborate.

[Usersince03]

Are you guys seriously only a handful mentioned vince carter...

[Platinum]

vince carter sucks, he's nowhere near top 10

[Oznogrd]

Are you guys seriously only a handful mentioned vince carter...

Never understood the Vince Carter fanatics...He is seriously athletic and fun to watch. Some of the coolest things i've ever seen in basketball have been done by this guy. But currently he doesnt enter my mind as an all star player. 5 years ago, sure, but theres alot of young blood doing the same things vince did (Dunking/3 Pts/ Blocking) taking the glory right now. Also, he just strikes me as one of those "x-factor players." Some nights he is very on and no one in the league can touch him, other nights he's very mundane and everyday role player caliber. *shrugs* Sure i'd probably put him in the top 20 or so but not top 10.

[---]

Players I think are better than Vince Carter off the top of my head (no order):

Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Jason Kidd
Dwyane Wade
Kobe Bryant
Yao Ming
Paul Pierce
Elton Brand
Tracy McGrady
Carmelo Anthony
Gilbert Arenas
Dirk Nowitzki
Amare Stoudemire

On his level:

Chris Paul
Carlos Boozer
Jermaine O'Neal
Deron Williams
Andrei Kirilenko
Chauncey Billups
Ray Allen
Pau Gasol
Shaquille O'Neal
Dwight Howard
Chris Bosh

He's got alot of competition.

[benji]

Elton Brand

Well, at least you recognize his greatness.

This is when we form a bond, become best of friends and bring down a common enemy. (LakersRule24 will post again in a few hours probably.)

[---]

Just friends? So you had me and KevC wearing those short shorts and grabbing your balls just to be friends?

I really thought something more was to become of it.

Just friends? I'm done with you.

[benji]

Hey. Hey. If mispelling guard were a parking space, I'd back into you nightly.

[Fitzy]

Shannon, wheres Kidd?

[Jackal]

Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Jason Kidd

Right in his post.

[Fitzy]

woops, make that, wheres ron mercer?

[Matt]

in yor mums bed!

[shadowgrin]

^^ Punching more bouncers.

[maceo24]

There are some stats that have their place. Minutes per game and points per game to a certain extent are one of them.

What makes points per game so valuable it should be one of the two most important stats to tell you anything about a player?

Points per game is an indicator, but it does not show whether one is a better scorer than another. It is more leading than a stat like FG%, 3FG%, or any of the basic defensive stats.

Don't mean to bring up a dead point but that guy was full of it.

However, Wade DOES carry. Alot. But he's a fantastic player, absolutely worthy of Top 5 mention.

Yao would be the most valuable player on the PLANET if he had a consistently aggressive demeanor.

Kudos to the person that mentioned Elton Brand. He's been stuck in hell the last 4 years and no one recognizes his game.


My list - not really ranked, so dont freak out
--------

1. Carmelo Anthony - the best one on one offensive player in basketball. Most consistent 15-20 ft shooter in the game. Too explosive to be guarded by anyone his size or larger, too strong for anyone smaller. The best off ball movement of any F in the league.

2. Kobe Bryant - most well rounded player in basketball. Does some things great, but does everything well. Has the killer instinct that you cant teach. Hate him or love him, you must respect him.

3. Yao Ming - At his size, to be that skilled is unreal. The most Influential player for a team in this list. If he develops a mean streak, he'll be the only truly unstoppable figure in the game.

4. Dwyane Wade - Absolutely fearless. Strong, Quick, and Smart. Lethal combination. Great finisher, and good vision gets his team mates easy buckets when hes doubled.

5. Lebron James - Unbelievable athletism. GREAT teammate. Unselfish to a fault sometimes. Gives you production from 3 positions at the same time. Needs a more consistent perimeter game to rise to the next level.

6. Dirk Nowitzki - Once he learned to be physical, he became unguardable. Great shooting range from any position, much less a PF. almost robotic consistency from midrange. Quality rebounder, but needs to finish better in traffic.

7. Tim Duncan - Stop hating. The best, most consistent Pf in history. 10 years in the league, 9 years all-defensive. Its not a gimmick. Shots are almost unblockable due to superior armlength. Most disciplined player I have ever seen. Dominant player 10 feet & in, on both sides of the court. If he was taller, he'd be better than Yao.

8. Steve Nash - Passes so well, you forget he can also drop 50 if you leave him open. Or if you dont. He gets the nod over Kidd because of scoring prowess. Can give you 15 assists on any given night. Best use of speed changes in the game. He's really not fast at all. But his jerky, almost awkward movements are planned and executed to through you off. Unpredictability is unguardable. Quiet leader who leads by example.

9. Kevin Garnett - Can will a team to victory. The biggest heart in the game. Not to mention the most versatile Frontcount player in history. Solid rebounder, good shot blocker, great defender, quick enough to give a few guards some problems. Offensively, solid midrange game, unstoppable turn-around J. Finishes well despite lack of mass. Teammates of KG will run through brick walls for him. Unquestioned leader, competitive passion is unrivaled.

10. Tracy McGrady - The most gifted scorer in the NBA. Offensively, does everything GREAT. The best ball handler over 6'7 in the game. Phenomenal range. Good rebounder, tough finisher, good vision. Is only selfish when his team needs him to be. Is a lockup Defender, with great length to bother the jumpshooters. Looks like hes playing fourth graders when he's at the top of his game. If T'Mac had Kobe's instinct, he'd be Basketball Jesus. (No offense Ray)


My almost made it list
-------------------------
Elton Brand, Paul Pierce, Josh Howard, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd


These players to me are the best in the league today. The argument of other players being more versatile or skill is always there, but were talking about real game performance, backed by stats that place these players at the top of their field. Leave potential out of it. Any negatives to their game are overshadowed by the outright dominance they show with their positives.