Who's a top 10 NBA Player?

[galvatron3000]

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Tracey McGrady
Kevin Garnett
Dwayne Wade
Jason Kidd
Carmelo Anthony
Allen Iverson
LeBron James
Dirk

[Gundy]

I understand what you are saying benji, but what exactly is "better"? Does it mean a player is better statistically than another or does it mean that a player does more things (statisically and intangibly) to help his team win?

[---]

Statistics are the results of the players' skills. To me, there is no sense in comparing the players' skills to measure their ability without looking at what the skills brought. Skills are what gets the player the statistics that indicate how much they helped win basketball games, in this case, PER, which has been proven to have a very high winning correlation. Yao manages to get that high PER by shooting a high TS% and a high usage rate. Now, this could be because he has an impeccable shooting form, has very good footwork in the post leading to a higher percentage shot, or any other part of his skillset but that doesn't mean shit if he doesn't get the results.

Statistics come from the players skills, but the stats don't fully cover all of a player's skillset. There's no point in comparing two players by stats if the statistics themselves don't show the full story.

Even those who dismiss stats use them all the time. Lots of people will say stats are meaningless, then argue a guy who gets 25ppg is a better scorer than one who gets 10ppg by using the stats. It should not be a question of using stats or not, but which ones we use.

For example, Shannon used rebounds per game to determine the best rebounders. But as I noted, there are factors more important than rebounds in the RPG stat. Such as minutes played, the number of shots seen, etc. In my example of Shannon and KevC, if we repeated that over 82 "games" KevC would have the far better rebounds per game. But once we strip away the minute differences, and adjust for the number of rebound opportunities, we can see that Shannon was the one who was actually getting more rebounds per opportunity.

I just have to say, I do put quite alot into statistics. However, it seems to me that you put more stock into statistics than watching an actual basketball game (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm sure I've even read that "statistics are secondary to actually watching a player" on some of these advanced statistical analysis websites.

I just don't believe that you can get the full story out of statistics, because stats right now cannot possibly count all the other events going on during a play.

I don't agree that PER is the be all end all of player comparison, and definately don't agree that there is a big enough difference to place Yao (who played roughly half the season) above LeBron, Kobe and Garnett (who all had down seasons).

Player - PER (05-06)

Yao Ming - 26.5 PER (25.6)

Kevin Garnett - 24.1 PER (26.8)
Kobe Bryant - 26.1 PER (28.0)
LeBron James - 24.5 PER (28.1)

When the numbers are that close, I want more than just "Yao has a higher PER". Especially when Yao only played the first half of the season (while the rest of these guys battles fatigue over the second half) and all the guys in comparison had down years, with the the season's before PER higher than Yao has ever had.

[hova-]

1. Tim Duncan: When it comes to being effective and successfull hes the man. I think that should be rewarded since the topic is a bit imprecise.

2. LeBron James: What he did lately and what he may do in the future is just amazing. Great body, basketball IQ and the character to make it.

3. Jason Kidd: Oh yeah, maybe a bit high but thats my opinion. One of the greatest basketballers of the last 10 years. Can carry a team almost alone. Although he has no ring yet (and probably wont get one) I think he deserves it to be here.

4. Steve Nash: Two-time MVP and we all know why. Carries the whole offense of a team being able to score and - even more - to distribute. Also someone for the big shots.

5. Dwyane Wade: Well, when he was not injured he showed what he can do. Leading his Heat to their first Championship he was absolutely convincing. Lots will say "hey he had Shaq", but I think this Shaq was not as good as when he won it with the Lakers. It was Wade who did it all.
He is amazingly quick and has the ballhandling skills, but also a quite good jumper now. Lets hope he will come back soon.

6. Kobe Bryant: Right about now I would say he is the best scorer in the NBA. You cannot defend him properly at all. Hitting those impossible shots and stuff. One the other side I think he has problems to shift his team to the next level. His support is weak, but I still think he is not the perfect leader. He has the ability to carry the responsibility but he is not the best to push his teammates and to boost team spirit.

7. Allen Iverson: Some forgot about him since he is in Denver. But he is still one of the best scorers in the league. And he plays hard, as hard as possible. He showed that he is able to carry a team. But just like Kobe he is not the best guy for the team spirit. Still deserves a place among the top 10 just by what he did in the last years and maybe will do with the Nuggs in future.

8. Tracy McGrady: I have to say I dont like T-Mac at all. But he has the skills. He is such a great basketballer. He can score, pass, jump out of the building, shoot deep threes ... everything from circus shots to game winning shots. But was has he achieved so far ?
So I am not really sure if he deserves this seed but I just think he got skills.

9. Dirk Nowitzki: Although he is not in the Top 10 of the most of you I think he deserves it. He showed the right mixture of skill and success. I know he is not as good as those other scorers I have mentioned. And he is maybe no the one to carry a teams offense. But he is so effective and just knows when to shoot and when not. He gives the best for the team and got rewarded. Thats what the most people forget: Considering that he is a top 10 scorer and a "star" in this league, Dirk is one of the best Team players without any preciousness or stuff .. think about it.

10. Kevin Garnett: Well I hope he will be successfull on his quest to a ring in Beantown. KG is the type of player who has it all. An allrounder, teamplayer (the Dirk type I think), hard player (gives all for the team) and a very loyal person. But he had not that much success because I personally think he needs scorers next to him. He is not a scorertype player. But considering this fact its even better to be ranked this high although not being known as a scorer, in a league where scorers are kinda like everything.

Close but no cigar: Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen.

[LakersRule24]

5. Dwyane Wade: Well, when he was not injured he showed what he can do. Leading his Heat to their first Championship he was absolutely convincing. Lots will say "hey he had Shaq", but I think this Shaq was not as good as when he won it with the Lakers. It was Wade who did it all.
He is amazingly quick and has the ballhandling skills, but also a quite good jumper now. Lets hope he will come back soon.

He was injured for most of the year, why is he so high? In 04-05, critics didn't even put Kobe in the top 10 and the main reason was that he was injured. Yet when it comes to Wade, he gets a free pass. Damn media.

I can't believe the media continues to hype up athletic players with no true basketball skills. Players that rely on their athleticism instead of their skills. Without Finals MVP, Wade=Prime Corey Maggette.

[---]

5. Dwyane Wade: Well, when he was not injured he showed what he can do. Leading his Heat to their first Championship he was absolutely convincing. Lots will say "hey he had Shaq", but I think this Shaq was not as good as when he won it with the Lakers. It was Wade who did it all.
He is amazingly quick and has the ballhandling skills, but also a quite good jumper now. Lets hope he will come back soon.

He was injured for most of the year, why is he so high? In 04-05, critics didn't even put Kobe in the top 10 and the main reason was that he was injured. Yet when it comes to Wade, he gets a free pass. Damn media.

I can't believe the media continues to hype up athletic players with no true basketball skills. Players that rely on their athleticism instead of their skills. Without Finals MVP, Wade=Prime Corey Maggette.

His injury isn't one that seriously hampers his skill level. He's still just as good as he was, only hurting a bit. It's not like that injury will never come right. As for Kobe, I find it hard believing that the critics didn't think Kobe was a top 10 player when he was injured (it must of been very minor, because I can't even recall the injury right now - maybe his shoulder?).

About the Maggette comparison, that makes me laugh. Dwyane is a infinately better ballhandler and passer and has far superior court vision. Corey may have one hell of a body and be very athletic, but Dwyane is just as quick and explosive. Dwyane is arguably the most unstoppable player when he wants to go to the hoop, and has a very good pull up jumper if for some reason he doesn't get into the lane. He's either too strong or too quick for anyone that gaurds him.

You say "Without Finals MVP" like it was just given to him for no reason. I'm guessing you missed the 2006 NBA Finals. Wade was head-and-shoulder above every single other player on the court.

[LakersRule24]

5. Dwyane Wade: Well, when he was not injured he showed what he can do. Leading his Heat to their first Championship he was absolutely convincing. Lots will say "hey he had Shaq", but I think this Shaq was not as good as when he won it with the Lakers. It was Wade who did it all.
He is amazingly quick and has the ballhandling skills, but also a quite good jumper now. Lets hope he will come back soon.

He was injured for most of the year, why is he so high? In 04-05, critics didn't even put Kobe in the top 10 and the main reason was that he was injured. Yet when it comes to Wade, he gets a free pass. Damn media.

I can't believe the media continues to hype up athletic players with no true basketball skills. Players that rely on their athleticism instead of their skills. Without Finals MVP, Wade=Prime Corey Maggette.

His injury isn't one that seriously hampers his skill level. He's still just as good as he was, only hurting a bit. It's not like that injury will never come right. As for Kobe, I find it hard believing that the critics didn't think Kobe was a top 10 player when he was injured (it must of been very minor, because I can't even recall the injury right now - maybe his shoulder?).

About the Maggette comparison, that makes me laugh. Dwyane is a infinately better ballhandler and passer and has far superior court vision. Corey may have one hell of a body and be very athletic, but Dwyane is just as quick and explosive. Dwyane is arguably the most unstoppable player when he wants to go to the hoop, and has a very good pull up jumper if for some reason he doesn't get into the lane. He's either too strong or too quick for anyone that gaurds him.

You say "Without Finals MVP" like it was just given to him for no reason. I'm guessing you missed the 2006 NBA Finals. Wade was head-and-shoulder above every single other player on the court.

He relies on his athleticism to do what he can with the help with the zebras. That's why his athletic prime=his basketball prime, he is all athleticism. He travels and carries when he drives to the basket, you don't see it because he does it so fast. He has a weak jumpshot and is one dimensional.

[---]

One dimensional? You're kidding yourself. If he was a Laker you would be all over him.

Arguably the best off gaurd in the league at setting up teammates. Great passer with fantastic court vision. A top 3 player in the league with the drive and dish, one of the reasons he was the assists leader amongst shooting gaurds last season and has been top 2 for three seasons running. Extremely effective off the midrange pullup, even more effective slashing right to the rim. Rebounds extremely well for a gaurd (5 per game last season, 6 the season before), infact he ranked top 5 in RPG amongst shooting gaurds in 05-06, and top 8 last season. Probably the fastest shooting gaurd with the ball, can get anywhere he wants at anytime he wants. He's also a pretty decent defender even though he gambles a bit.

He's not one dimensional. He's not just a slasher, or just a jumpshooter. If he ever develops a good three point shot he will be completely unstoppable offensively. As I said, he also does a decent job on the defensive side of things as well.

I actually like Corey Maggette more than Dwyane Wade, but that was a terrible comparison, and no matter how much Wade relies on his athleticism, he is infinately better than Maggette.

[Christopherson]

Some of the same stuff was said about Jordan his first couple seasons in the league. Truly great players never stop improving and adding new wrinkles to their game. Jordan once relied on his athleticism but that didn't stop him from hanging 50 on people in is upper 30's, long after his vaunted athleticism left him. To me Wade looks like the kind of player who is never going to stop trying to improve his game. I think he will be very successful in the league for a long time.

[---]

Question for kevC - What does Yao Ming do better than Kobe Bryant other than rebound and block shots, and what does Yao Ming do better than Kevin Garnett other than score (and that's very debatable, considering Garnett's versatility).

[kevC]

Offensively, Yao and Kobe are a push. Defensively Yao is not only better but also plays a more important position on defense. However, it's silly comparing players in your manner - looking at how many different categories one player is better than the other. You have to look at everything holistically, which PER does so well at least on offense. No one in this thread (by that I mean benji and I) are saying PER is the end all be all stat, it's just much more effective than comparing per game stats. Also, what's more important is the manner in which the players get the PERs. As for Garnett, it is true he had a down year and will probably bounce back to a PER close to Yao's but the thing is it's not like Yao had a flukish year last year, he's played better every year since his rookie year and he's still only 27. I can legitimately see him pushing 28 to 29 PER under Adelman.

[---]

I can too.

And no, I don't compare players by catagory. I do feel that Kobe is much more talented - he's the best offensive player in the game today, and is a staple of the All-Defensive teams. Yao is underrated defensively IMO, but I wouldn't say he's better than Kobe. I can't hold a player over another when that player is only better in the rebounding/shotblocking facets of the game, higher PER or not.

[TheMC5]

Offensively, Yao and Kobe are a push.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

No fucking way. You didn't just say that, did you? I'm hallucinating, right?

[RKO]

1.) Kobe Bryant
2.) Tim Duncan
3.) Dwyane Wade
4.) LeBron James
5.) Tracy McGrady
6.) Kevin Garnet
7.) Steve Nash
8.) Dirk NoRINGtzki
9.) Carmelo Anthony
10.) Jason Kidd

[Double E]

right now-

1.Kobe Bryant
2.LeBron James
3.Kevin Garnett
4.Tracy Mcgrady
5.Steve Nash
6.Tim Duncan
7.Carmelo Anthony
8.Jason Kidd
9.Baron Davis
10.Dirk Nowitzki

[Fitzy]

baron davis ahead of the nba mvp?

[hova-]

5. Dwyane Wade: Well, when he was not injured he showed what he can do. Leading his Heat to their first Championship he was absolutely convincing. Lots will say "hey he had Shaq", but I think this Shaq was not as good as when he won it with the Lakers. It was Wade who did it all.
He is amazingly quick and has the ballhandling skills, but also a quite good jumper now. Lets hope he will come back soon.

He was injured for most of the year, why is he so high? In 04-05, critics didn't even put Kobe in the top 10 and the main reason was that he was injured. Yet when it comes to Wade, he gets a free pass. Damn media.

I can't believe the media continues to hype up athletic players with no true basketball skills. Players that rely on their athleticism instead of their skills. Without Finals MVP, Wade=Prime Corey Maggette.

Firstly, Wade has more to offer than athleticism. He has very good ballhandling skills. His midrange jumpshot is money. His courtvision is also very good, Shannon confirmed that with his stats.

Another big point is .... remember the Kobe from 99 to 01 I would say. He was nothin but athleticism. His dunks, layups, fastbreaks, all about athelticism. He got hyped, too. There is nothing wrong with that. But just like Wade did, Kobe worked on his game and is now able to do it everything. Wade isnt so far yet, but he is younger. He has to work on his long range jumper for sure. But he can do much more than just relying on his athelticism.

baron davis ahead of the nba mvp?

Typical example for someone who thinks Dirk is a choker after round 1 last year. B-Diddy is definitely not ahead of Dirk, but its getting closer. In the terms of success, Dirk is still clearly in front, but B-Diddy is a quite good leader ...

[Matt]

on his game, Baron Davis is easily better than Nowitzki.....hell, on his best game (playoffs) Davis is top 5

[LakersRule24]

He was injured for most of the year, why is he so high? In 04-05, critics didn't even put Kobe in the top 10 and the main reason was that he was injured. Yet when it comes to Wade, he gets a free pass. Damn media.

I can't believe the media continues to hype up athletic players with no true basketball skills. Players that rely on their athleticism instead of their skills. Without Finals MVP, Wade=Prime Corey Maggette.

Firstly, Wade has more to offer than athleticism. He has very good ballhandling skills. His midrange jumpshot is money. His courtvision is also very good, Shannon confirmed that with his stats.

Another big point is .... remember the Kobe from 99 to 01 I would say. He was nothin but athleticism. His dunks, layups, fastbreaks, all about athelticism. He got hyped, too. There is nothing wrong with that. But just like Wade did, Kobe worked on his game and is now able to do it everything. Wade isnt so far yet, but he is younger. He has to work on his long range jumper for sure. But he can do much more than just relying on his athelticism.

Wade uses carries, travels, and other illegal moves to get to the rim. He has no a poor and inconsistent jumpshot. And how do assists show that he has good court vision? Assists mean that your teammate made the shot when you passed it to him. Kobe had a better jumpshot than Wade in his early days and was one of the best ballhandlers in the league, much better than Wade. Basketball is a game of skill, and wade has no other skill other than slashing and passing.

One dimensional? You're kidding yourself. If he was a Laker you would be all over him.

Arguably the best off gaurd in the league at setting up teammates. Great passer with fantastic court vision. A top 3 player in the league with the drive and dish, one of the reasons he was the assists leader amongst shooting gaurds last season and has been top 2 for three seasons running. Extremely effective off the midrange pullup, even more effective slashing right to the rim. Rebounds extremely well for a gaurd (5 per game last season, 6 the season before), infact he ranked top 5 in RPG amongst shooting gaurds in 05-06, and top 8 last season. Probably the fastest shooting gaurd with the ball, can get anywhere he wants at anytime he wants. He's also a pretty decent defender even though he gambles a bit.

He's not one dimensional. He's not just a slasher, or just a jumpshooter. If he ever develops a good three point shot he will be completely unstoppable offensively. As I said, he also does a decent job on the defensive side of things as well.

I actually like Corey Maggette more than Dwyane Wade, but that was a terrible comparison, and no matter how much Wade relies on his athleticism, he is infinately better than Maggette.

Assists mean that your teammates scored when you passed him the ball. He uses illegal dribbling moves to get to the rim and uses his athleticism to get there. The only thing he can do is slash and be a playmaker, but uses the above to do so. He is a horrible perimeter shooter, 11% from 3 in 05-06 and 26% in 06-07 is simply unacceptable for a guard.

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8756/hotzonesy4.png

Both Maggette and Wade use their athleticism purely to get to the rim. Wade is a better playmaker, but both can't do anything against zone defenses.

[benji]

Well, he must be doing something right considering he's a dominant offensive and defensive player. He had the top PER in the league last season and was top five the year before. His slashing must be so god-like it overrides everything else everyone in the league does.

[LakersRule24]

He missed most of last season. How can someone that played in 50 games last year possibly be a top 5 player? And Yao was 3rd in PER. Does that mean he is the 3rd best player in the league?

His play was exposed in the 2006 FIBA games. FIBA doesn't call touch fouls and their players play an aggressive zone defense. Thats why Wade struggled and was completly useless. He can't shoot, so he can't break a zone.

[benji]

He missed most of last season. How can someone that played in 50 games last year possibly be a top 5 player?

How can someone so productive be terrible and able to do nothing but slash and pass?

And Yao was 3rd in PER. Does that mean he is the 3rd best player in the league?

No, and I did not make that claim.

[LakersRule24]

He missed most of last season. How can someone that played in 50 games last year possibly be a top 5 player?

How can someone so productive be terrible and able to do nothing but slash and pass?

Production=stats=misleading. Stats are an indicator of the competition/defense you face and the team around you. Basketball is about skill and ability, stats cannot measure that.

[Christopherson]

Don't do it Benji!!! Its not worth it!!!!

[benji]

Right, so points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, etc. are not measures of a players production. Completely meaningless...certainly have nothing to do with results.

Who cares if a team outscores another, completely meaningless. Does not indicate anything about the skill or ability of the teams.