benji wrote:It is not obvious though. You believe those three players to be better than Yao Ming, so to you, it is "obvious" they are. Kevc and others in this thread clearly do not agree with your personal ranking of the players, so you should make the case for why your ranking is the superior one. That is what drives discussion, and discussion forums.
If you find it obvious and not worth your time, why make a snarky comment then? Why make irrelevant declarations, if you have no intention of ever supporting them? We already have more than enough of that.
Irregardless of my own belief on the matter:
Yao Ming is the best player in the league. It is not worth debating, it is damn obvious.
I think it's painfully obvious, and most that watch the NBA would agree. Anyone with knowledge of the NBA wouldn't argue that Yao Ming is a better player than LeBron, Kevin or Kobe.
I don't see the point in arguing something we both agree on (let's be serious... I know that you think Garnett/Kobe/LeBron are all better players than Yao), but since you insist...
Yao Ming: 25.0 PPG | 9.4 RPG | 2.0 APG | 0.4 SPG | 2.0 BPG | 3.5 TPG | 33.8 MPG
Kobe Bryant:
31.6 PPG | 5.7 RPG |
5.4 APG |
1.4 SPG | 0.5 BPG |
3.3 TPG | 40.8 MPG
Kevin Garnett: 22.4 PPG |
12.8 RPG |
4.1 APG |
1.2 SPG | 1.7 BPG |
2.7 TPG | 39.4 MPG
LeBron James:
27.3 PPG | 6.7 RPG |
6.0 APG |
1.6 SPG | 0.7 BPG |
3.2 TPG | 40.9 MPG
Statistically, the only thing's Yao beats Kobe out in is rebounding and shot blocking, which should be expected because he plays downlow and that is usually a centers role on a team. In comparison to Kevin Garnett, Yao scores more and has a slight edge in shotblocking, while losing out in all other catagories. Going head to head with LeBron James, Yao out-rebounds and out-shotblocks LeBron, which once again is expected considering LeBron plays on the perimeter and Yao plays downlow.
Yao shoots a higher percentage thanall of these guys, but when 2 of them are gaurds that is to be expected. The fact he scores more effeciently than Kevin Garnett doesn't suprise me much, considering Yao is a very good post scorer who rarely leaves the block and has much more help around the perimeter to take defensive pressure off him.
Kobe Bryant is the best offensive player in the game today, so there's no contest here offensively. One could argue that Yao is a better scorer than LeBron James, because he is more effecient and would score roughly the same amount if he played as many minutes as LeBron, so I'll leave them around equal. Yao was also better than Garnett offensively last season so I'll give him that, despite his advantages.
Defensively, Yao can only compare to LeBron James. Yao is a better defender than LeBron, but not so much better that he can be in the same conversation as Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett - two of the best defenders by their respective positions over the past decade. Yao is simply not on the level defensively of 7 time All Defence selection Kobe Bryant and 8 time All Defence selection Kevin Garnett.
I checked up on 82games.com to see if the stats reflected this, but there wasn't much evidence that these stats can have too much weight put on them. I saw that some guys who are well known for being good defenders didn't rate so well, and guys who are criticized for their defence are being rated better than what you'd expect. If I was reading it right, here are the numbers:
Tim Duncan: Allowed 46.3%FG | -2.8% when OFF court
Eddie Jones: Allowed 52.8%FG | -0.1% when OFF court
Kevin Garnett: Allowed 49.4%FG | -1.9% when OFF court
Tyson Chandler: Allowed 50.4%FG | -1.2% when OFF court
LeBron James: Allowed 48.0%FG | -0.4% when OFF court
Jason Williams: Allowed 48.1%FG | -0.8% when OFF court
Yao Ming: Allowed 46.3FG% | -2.7 when OFF court
Ben Wallace: Allowed 48.5%FG | +3.7% when OFF court
Kobe Bryant: Allowed 49.7%FG | -1.4% when OFF court
Rafer Alston: Allowed 46.2%FG | -1.6% when OFF court
As I said, I don't put too much weight into these numbers and would rather go by what I have seen and the amount of awards these guys have racked up. According to these statistics, Ben Wallace is a terrible defender - worse than Jason Williams, LeBron James and Rafer Alston. Tyson Chandler and Eddie Jones also come out as terrible defenders.
Rafer Alston shows as roughly the same defensive presence of Tim Duncan, as does Yao himself. Garnett, Kobe and LeBron all have pretty bad looking scores in comparison, and LeBron actually comes out as the best defender of the bunch - which we know just isn't true.
The defensive composite scores aren't all that impressive either - LeBron rates as an excellent defender, while defensive powerhouses such as Ben Wallace and Tyson chandler rank far below. Kobe ranks as just an average defender while Yao rates as an excellent defender, making the top 10, just a spot below Kevin Garnett.
Yao isn't a bad defender, but I can't put everything into these statistics. He is simply not the defensive presence of Kevin Garnett or Kobe Bryant.
Moving on to the next thing, playmaking ability. LeBron James, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett are all elite in this regard. They all have fantastic court vision and passing ability, and have a knack for finishing the play. Yao Ming is a very good passer and has some great court vision for a center, but he doesn't have the playmaking ability of these three. All these guys rack up considerably more assists each game and only Kevin Garnett wasn't above Yao's level in terms of scoring the ball last season. Yao is a very good passer, but he doesn't have the ability to make plays like these guys.
That leads me to the next thing - versatility. Kobe Bryant can play the point gaurd position (we often see him bring it up the court and initiate the offence), the shooting gaurd position and would have no problem playing the small forward if need be. LeBron James can and has played those three spots also. Kevin Garnett can play basically all five positions, but mainly plays the small forward, the center or the power forward spots.
Garnett is 7 foot with gaurd like shooting, passing, speed and ballhandling ability. That's the reason why he is such an incredible matchup problem. There are very few in this league that can gaurd Kevin Garnett. Kobe Bryant has as good perimeter skills as any player in NBA history - 3 point range, mid range, ballhandling, athleticism, speed, passing, etc. You name it, he has it. However, he is also very strong and will often post up on the baseline and spin into the lane or fadeaway. His versatility allows him to play inside and out. Finally, we have LeBron James. LeBron is a freak of nature physically - he's incredibly strong, athletic and fast, adn can use this to his advantage. He has much of the same skills as Kobe, albeit less of a jumpshot (which is rsaid to be much improved this offseason). He can also use his massive body to post up smaller players, and has started to use that more often and effectively in reason times.
Yao on the other hand is strictly a center, and cannot play on the perimeter. He can't bring the ball up the floor, nor can he shoot from the outside. He can't take his man out to the perimeter and blow by him. He simply isn't versatile. Versatility is a very important thing in basketball, as it creates matchup problems which equal points. If you're as offensively versatile as these guys, chances are you are a big time scorer.
The same thing goes for defensively. I don't think LeBron is a good defender, but Kobe and Garnett are. They can use that versatility they use on offence, on defence. Kobe and Garnett can both gaurd 3 positions.
Moving onto rebounding. Garnett has been the best rebounder in the league for 4 straight seasons, and has been elite for alot longer than that. Yao is no match, and he actually doesn't rebound all that well for a guy his size. I'd expect a 7'5" center as mobile as him to be grabbing more than 9 rebounds a game. Yao outrebounds LeBron and Kobe, but that is too be expected considering Yao is a center. It's a billion times more likely you see a center rebounding more than a shooting gaurd. However, if you look through the rebounding numbers from last season by position, Yao is the 13th rated center, while Kobe is the 3rd best rebounding gaurd and LeBron is the 5th best rebounding small forward.
While they don't rebound as much, they are better rebounders for their respective positions than Yao is for a center.
Quickly touching on turnovers, most of these guys turn the ball over quite a bit. Yao averages 4.9 turnovers per 48, good for 7th worst in the league, while Kobe ranks 26th, LeBron 33rd and Garnett 61st. Obviously Yao commits more mistakes than these guys by a considerable margin, which is rather troublesome for a guy that doesn't handle the ball anywhere near as much as LeBron, Kobe or Garnett.
To summarize, Yao Ming is simply not on the level of these three future hall of famers. Yao is a very good scorer, but is only better than Garnett. When you add in the factors of playmaking, passing, versatility and taking care of the ball into the offensive equation, Yao rates last. Defensively, Yao is behind Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett, but is a better defender than LeBron James. Add in the factors of rebounding and defensive versatility, and Yao ranks even lower compared to Garnett and Bryant.
I do not believe that Yao Ming is on the level of any of these players, and the only thing he really has over a single one of these guys is defensive ability, over LeBron James. You could say rebounding, but the fact that Bryant and LeBron are top 3 and top 5 rebounders respectively by position means alot. Then chuck up the fact that Yao is 13th amongst centers and you can't really use that as an edge, considering they play completely different positions.
