Marion "Time For Me To Move On"

[Indy]

Because two-thirds of the frontcourt is still Boozer and Okur.

OK, then I'll put it this way. An Odom/Boozer/Okur front court would be better, and scarier then the frontcourt they have now with Kirilenko.

Odom is an offensive wizard. He is a great rebounder, and has more shooting range then AK. Both are excellent passers, but Lamar is a much better ball handler and would be great in Jerry Sloan's system. Knowing his personality he may fight it some, but once the long winning streaks started coming I think he would have fun with that team and be incredibly successful.

Just imagine Odom on the high post, Boozer on the low post with Okur spreading the floor. How the hell would any team other then San Antonio be able to match up with that at all? Better yet, how would San Antonio be able to match up with that?!

[benji]

Odom is hardly a great player. You make it sound like he's one of the top players in the league. He's more like an average starter quality player.

An Odom/Boozer/Okur front court would be better, and scarier then the frontcourt they have now with Kirilenko.

If it was 04-05, or even 05-06 Kirilenko fresh in our minds instead of last years incarnation, we would not even be having this silly conversation. Everyone would be picking AK and Marion in a landslide.

He is a great rebounder

46th for forwards?

Odom is an offensive wizard.

They usually have more than one season well above the league average offensively.

would be great in Jerry Sloan's system

Explain.

I have no clue how Odom could make the Jazz better, any offensive improvement would be neglible and the defense would take a major hit.

[Sauru]

I have no clue how Odom could make the Jazz better, any offensive improvement would be neglible and the defense would take a major hit.

maybe williams will want to pass him the ball?

[benji]

Why would they want to take possessions away from Okur, Boozer, Harpring and Williams to give them to Odom? (Heck, even Milsap and Brewer.)

[Andrew]

I understand Shawn, it sucks when you build a team, grow in a team professionally and build up relationships with your teammates then suddenly a Garnett rumor surfaced and it's you who gets the boot out, still in that matter, he has to share the stardom with two other superstars.

I'm sure he does feel slighted by the trade rumours/talks and that's understandable, but at the same time it's the nature of the business. He's not the first player to be shopped or included in trade talks (All-Star or otherwise) and he won't be the last. Loyalty on both sides is admirable but teams are going to look out for their best interests too and when a player like KG becomes available they can't be faulted for asking what it would take to acquire him.

[Christopherson]

Why would they want to take possessions away from Okur, Boozer, Harpring and Williams to give them to Odom? (Heck, even Milsap and Brewer.)

I believe he was refering to Deron's comment about not wanting to pass the ball to Kirilenko last season because he didn't work as hard everyone else.

[Sauru]

its marions own fault he is in trade talks. he wants a huge deal and no matter what some people here seem to think, he is not worth a max deal imo. instead of him just leaving the suns want something in return for him, so of course he is going to be rumored to be in alot of trades.

just to note, i am really happy he nixed the boston deal, much happier with what we got now instead

[benji]

I believe he was refering to Deron's comment about not wanting to pass the ball to Kirilenko last season because he didn't work as hard everyone else.

Of course he was, it's what he does.

I was asking why would the Jazz want Williams to pass to Odom over not passing to Kirilenko? Passing to Odom will strip possessions from good offensive players and give them to a slightly above average at best offensive player.

[TheMC5]

If I'm Steve Kerr, and my options in dealing Marion are between Odom and AK47, I'd push hard for Kirilenko, and here's why:

If Odom were to go to Phoenix, I assume he would basically take up all of Shawn Marion's offensive production, somewhere between 17-19 PPG and 9-10 RPG. Odom might even make Phoenix more offensively efficient than Marion, due to his offensive versatility and playmaking/passing ability. However, Phoenix already has among the best, if not the best, offense in the league, so the jump in efficiency is proportionally less meaningful than it would be on a worse offensive team (i.e. a team actually in need of Odom's skills). However, Odom also plays a very similar game to Boris Diaw. He's almost like the uber-Diaw, and I question whether it would be possible for D'Antoni to play both of them together. Additionally, one of Odom's main strengths, handling the ball, would be largely neutralized on Phoenix, as Steve Nash controls the vast majority of the ball handling duties, and the Suns play too quickly for Odom to be handling the ball with much regularity.

Kirilenko, on the other hand, would be unlikely to take up all of Marion's offensive production, which would ideally translate into more touches for Grant Hill, who is still a borderline all-star when healthy. Kirilenko might also hurt the Suns offensive efficiency, but that would be unlikely to drop them significantly. They would likely still be an offensive juggernaut, and AK47 might not even be much of a drop off from Marion, as the Suns offense seems tailored to his game. His passing skills are almost on par with Odom's as well. Where AK will make a difference is on defense. He would either keep the Suns D afloat and steady in Marion's absence, or even provide a jump in defensive efficiency, which would almost certainly drop with Odom instead. He's also a more versatile defender than Odom, with the ability the guard both forward positions, as well some 2 guards, guys like Joe Johnson or Mike Miller who don't rely on speed and quickness for their points. In Phoenix's defensive system, AK could potentially have a 2 block 2 steal season.

Assuming Suns ownership can stomach AK's contract, he'd be a better fit than Odom. I'd try like hell to get Millsap from Utah, too, but I doubt they'd go for it. I'd even toss in Alando Tucker or DJ Strawberry, with Brian Skinner if it got Millsap.

[benji]

Odom might even make Phoenix more offensively efficient than Marion,

Kirilenko might also hurt the Suns offensive efficiency

Yes, Odom has the more impressive offensive skillset, but I do not see why people think he would improve either Utah or Phoenix's offenses. The two teams were 3rd and 1st on offense last season.

Look at the guys ORtg's for the last five seasons.
Odom: 99-102-107-112-107 (Career: 104)
AK47: 116-111-117-108-106 (Career: 112)
Marion: 111-107-116-118-116 (Career: 112)
LgAvg: 104-103-106-106-106

We aren't even talking about the defense here, where it is no contest between the two stars and the faux-star.

[TheMC5]

I'm not saying either would happen, just that either could happen.

And like I said, I'd take Kirilenko over Odom, anyway.

[benji]

I was not arguing with your point, I was simply jumping off your post because you were the latest person to raise that possibility.

[Indy]

If push came to shove I would actually probably take Shawn Marion over Odom, but the level that you guys are underrating Odom is astounding.

Lamar is a guy that plays mostly on the perimiter for LA, yet he shoots the ball at a good percentage, around 47-48 percent, and he is a 9-11 rebound per game player.

I have a TON more to say about this, but I gotta go right now.

[J@3]

We can't say what Odom can deliver, I mean eight seasons worth is clearly not enough time to evaluate a player. Plus, he's only 27, lots of time to develop. Not like that 28 year old (and eight seasons) Marion and 25 year old (and six) Kirilenko.

You're not even remotely taking their career circumstances into account, just the number of years they've been in the league. Just because someone's been in the league for a certain amount of time doesn't mean they've been in a team that's given them the opportunity to show exactly what they're capable of producing. Darko Milicic is heading into his 5th NBA season, do you really think his production would've been the same had he been drafted by a real lottery team that would've played him in the first three seasons? He's only two seasons behind Kirilenko, do you think he's shown everything he's capable of? Obviously he hasn't (verbally he has) and that is because the circumstances of his career so far haven't allowed it.

Odom doesn't need to develop. Steve Nash won two undeserved MVP awards after the age of 30 purely because he went to a team that suited his style of play. Odom is yet to play for a team that has fully utilized the skills he has (as most people acknowledge he does) and based on the way he has played when Kobe's been out I think it's safe to assume he has alot more to offer than he has been showing thus far.

[benji]

Odom only gets that many boards because he plays pretty much 40 minutes a game. As noted above, he only ranked 46th in rebounding for forwards last season.

Don't get all over Odom's shooting percentage just yet. Odom shot 40% on his jumpers last season, and 42% the year before. (55% and 49% of attempts.)

Truth is, barring one season (05-06), Odom has never been more than a slightly average offensive player. He has never been a good defender, and his overall game has never made him a top ten forward or even a top five small forward. It has been eight years, you would think by nearly a decade if he was that good, he would have shown it.

Sure, he has a great offensive skill set, but so have lots of other players who did not dominate the league.

You're not even remotely taking their career circumstances into account, just the number of years they've been in the league. Just because someone's been in the league for a certain amount of time doesn't mean they've been in a team that's given them the opportunity to show exactly what they're capable of producing. Darko Milicic is heading into his 5th NBA season, do you really think his production would've been the same had he been drafted by a real lottery team that would've played him in the first three seasons? He's only two seasons behind Kirilenko, do you think he's shown everything he's capable of?

I think you know those are not comparable situations. Odom having logged over 19000 minutes thus far, Kirilenko 13000, and Darko merely 3093, which is a seasons worth for a starting player. Plus Darko is just 22. (Odom had logged 5603, Kirilenko had logged 4364 minutes by then)

Also, I think Darko has by this point, shown the bulk of what he will be in the league, maybe not what he is capable of. If he does not turn the corner into a 17-18 PER range this year (as a summary of his production, of course) he is most likely never going to be a great player. Third year (of which this basically is for him) is the make or break year for most players, fourth is usually the limit.

If Kirilenko returns to his 04-05 season, he is one of the great players of the league. If Odom returns to his best year, he's Rashard Lewis. (Without the efficient offense...and with more "other things" of course)

based on the way he has played when Kobe's been out I think it's safe to assume he has alot more to offer than he has been showing thus far.

I will take a gander at that.

[J@3]

I will take a gander at that.

Just ignore December 8th as it does not support my argument.

[benji]

Will do.

[maceo24]

I'm suprised you hold Odom in such high regard. Odom's got a ridiculous set of skills and talent, but he still hasn't blossomed into the Magic Johnson type of player everyone envisioned. I'm a huge Odom fan too, but I wouldn't take him over Marion's defensive versatility. I think Kirilenko's better defensively, but he's not a difference maker on offence like Marion who will quietly get you 20 points within the flow of an offence.

The only reason that he hasnt is that every situation hes been in, hes started as the clear cut second option. With the clippers he was second to Brand, which made that team a halfcourt offense. With the lakers, Kobe is the first and second option, and the triangle offense isnt known for its transitional opportunies, lol.

Odom is a Ferrari thats been dying to get loose for years. Put him back at his natural SF position, and watch his confidence (and numbers) skyrocket. He'd be an absolute nightmare in a phoenix uniform. He and Nash would combine for 24-25 assists a night.

[Silas]

He and Nash would combine for 24-25 assists a night.

A bit of a stretch I'd say. He'd have to average more assists than Nash, which I don't see happening.

[Christopherson]

One part of this equation that I think is being vastly overlooked is durability. Production levels aside, Odom has far less value than the other two because of durability issues. In the last 6 seasons he has missed 18+ games 4 times. Kirilenko has had trouble staying on the court the last couple years, but his injury corners aren't near as great as they are with Odom. Marion on the other hand hasn't missed more than 3 games in a season since his rookie year in 99-00.

Additionally, if I was an NBA GM I would have to take into account that Odom has spent time in the league substance abuse programs. Changed man or not, that has to factor into the decision.

I would rank them:
1 Marion
1a Kirilenko
3 Odom

But quite frankly I am not very high on any of the three. Odom is injury prone and just never seems like he cares enough to live up to his potential. Kirilenko could decide he wants to be one of the best players in the NBA or decide he wants to go back to Russia. At this point, you just don't know what to expect from him. Taking him on would be like decided to date the really cool hot chick, who just happened to be bipolar. As long as she's on her meds she is fine but damn can she make life not much fun. Marion also scares me. For one he turns 30 this season. He has logged mega-minutes in seasons playing 90+ games as well as having stints with Team USA. He is bound to slip sooner or later. I think that Nash has been hiding that, but if he were to go to a team with say, Jordan Farmar as his point guard I doubt he would have the wide open looks and alley-oop dunks he benefits from these days.

If I were the Suns I would probably just wait this out.

[TheMC5]

This is only kind of related to this thread, but as there's really no other thread to put it in and it doesn't justify the starting of it's own thread, I thought I'd put it here.

I was just fooling around on Real GM's trade checker, and I came up with a Marion trade scenario that would basically take care of the 4 big player issues from the summer. It looks on paper to be a good deal for all teams involved, and would get Marion out of Phoenix, AK out of Utah, net some help for Kobe, and help Indiana speed up the inevitable rebuilding process. Honestly, this trade almost makes too much sense for all parties involved, so it would never happen. Anyway, the deal was:

PHOENIX
Incoming: Andrei Kirilenko, Paul Millsap, David Harrison
Outgoing: Shawn Marion, Alondo Tucker
Projected outlook: +0.6 PPG, +1.9 RBP, +2.3 assists per game
Reasoning: Obviously, get something for Marion, instead of letting him become a free agent. AK takes on Marion's role, and Millsap gives them exactly what they needed - a gritty, physical hustle player, who can defend and rebound well. Harrison adds sorely needed big-man depth.

UTAH
Incoming: Shawn Marion
Outgoing: Andrei Kirilenko, Paul Millsap
Projected outlook: +2.4 PPG, -0.1 RPG, -2.0 APG
Reasoning: To get value for Kirilenko. Giving up Millsap would hurt, but it's worth it for one of the best all-round players in the game.

LA LAKERS
Incoming: Jermaine O'Neal
Outgoing: Kwame Brown, Bryan Cook, Vladimir Radmanovic
Projected outlook: -2.5 PPG, -3.0 RPG, -1.6 APG
Reasoning: Placate Kobe, as well as make LA instant contenders, all while keeping Odom and Bynum.

INDIANA
Incoming: Kwame Brown, Bryan Cook, Vladimir Radmanovic, Alondo Tucker
Outgoing: Jermaine O'Neal, David Harrison
Projected outlook: -0.5 PPG, +1.2 RPG, +1.3 APG
Reasoning: Losing JO would hurt, but the Pacers are merely prolonging the inevitable by not dealing O'Neal. With this trade, they get an expiring contract in Kwame Brown, some big bodies to fill the holes left by O'Neal and Harrison, some desperately needed 3-point shooting, and a promising young wing player. Chances are a draft pick or 2 might need to find it's way to the Pacers for this deal to go through, but I can't see the Lakers, Jazz, or Suns being terribly reluctant to part with a pick.

Like I said, I think it makes too much sense for it to actually happen in the NBA.

[---]

Like I said, I think it makes too much sense for it to actually happen in the NBA.

I don't think it makes any sense for Indiana, getting an expiring contract and two soft bigs that stand round on the perimeter all day chucking threes for a 20/10 guy with some of the best defence in the league. Giving up David Harrison who I think alot of Pacer fans are pretty high just makes the deal worse. I like them getting Alando, but he's obviously not enough to make this deal a positive one. I don't think Utah would give up Kirilenko and Millsap (who was a big time steal and a real solid player) for a soon to be free agent Marion - especially because even if he did extend his contract and stay in Utah, he wants big, big, big $$$.

[J J]

There's no way in hell the Jazz would trade Millsap away, just like how the Lakers won't give Bynum up.

[TheMC5]

Like I said, I think it makes too much sense for it to actually happen in the NBA.

I don't think it makes any sense for Indiana, getting an expiring contract and two soft bigs that stand round on the perimeter all day chucking threes for a 20/10 guy with some of the best defence in the league. Giving up David Harrison who I think alot of Pacer fans are pretty high just makes the deal worse. I like them getting Alando, but he's obviously not enough to make this deal a positive one.

Well, if LA also threw in their 1st rounder, I think it totally makes sense. The Pacers get some cap relief and some bigs who can at least play, as well as 2 1st round draft picks - their own, assuming they still have it, which will be very high, and LA's. O'Neal's not sticking around much longer, and they're not going to be very good even with him.

I don't think Utah would give up Kirilenko and Millsap (who was a big time steal and a real solid player) for a soon to be free agent Marion - especially because even if he did extend his contract and stay in Utah, he wants big, big, big $$$.

I know Utah loves Millsap, so this could be an issue, but I think Utah has the money for it (I believe all their top guys are locked up, plus they had almost as much invested in AK47 for a similar time frame), and Marion would be a great fit in Utah next to Deron Williams, Boozer, and Okur. Maybe another player from Indiana or LA gets shipped to Utah in this scenario, as well, to compensate for the loss of Millsap.

[Indy]

MC that is awful. Totally terrible and you should be ashamed. I'm not being sarcastic at all either. This is worse then the stuff you see on realgm.

We trade our best player, our franchise guy for not even one guy that would start on our team! Not to mention the fact that we take on a terrible contract. We wouldn't accept Bynum, Crittenton and Kwame, what in the world makes you think we'd accept a deal that has us taking much worse players with worse contracts and less potential? Please, think.