Deron Williams' Time

[Matthew]

Has Billups ever effectively posted up anyone bigger then him, or just players like Daniel Gibson and Tony Parker?

[---]

Well, there aren't many PG's bigger than him. The only point guards off the top of my head where Billup's size and strength in the post wouldn't be much of an advantage are Baron Davis and to an extent, Deron Williams.

Backing down smaller point guards gives Billups that extra dimension to his game, especially considering there a very few point guards Billups will face where his strength and size won't be much of an advantage.

Daniel Gibson has actually done a really good job on Billups from what I have seen, but I've only seen spots of games of the Cavs-Pistons matchup because I find the Cavaliers so boring to watch.

[Matthew]

Uh, just because Billups is a pg doesnt mean only other pg's will guard him exclusively. This isn't NBA Live

[magius]

i'm guessing if they're smaller than him he'll post them up, bigger than him he'll try to beat them off the dribble - or wait for rip to curl, or go inside out. i mean its not like he sees a bigger player, and tries to prove something. he's certainly not at, say, payton's level in terms of talent, but he dictates the tempo of the game pretty well, and has been money in the playoffs more often than not.

[Matthew]

It's not about proving anything. Mark Jackson used to post up much bigger players, like Kobe for example, just because he was effective at doing so.

[---]

Uh, just because Billups is a pg doesnt mean only other pg's will guard him exclusively. This isn't NBA Live

You know what I mean.

I was trying to say Billups will only come up against a couple point guards he can't use his size and strength against to back them down. I don't recall any times Billups was being guarded by someone other than an opposing point guard, who was bigger and stronger than him, and attempted to back them down. It wouldn't really make any sense, unless the bigger guy is allergic to defending the post or something.

[Its_asdf]

In my eyes, Deron Williams has surpassed Chris Paul this year. I knew that he'd be on Paul's level but not this quickly. It's sad that nearly all Jazz point guards have to live in Stockton's shadow though....

[Sauru]

In my eyes, Deron Williams has surpassed Chris Paul this year. I knew that he'd be on Paul's level but not this quickly. It's sad that nearly all Jazz point guards have to live in Stockton's shadow though....

dont see why thats sad, it happens when anyone great player plays for a team for such a long time. everyone has had to live up to the jordans and birds and magics and everyone else. every center the lakers have got since shaq has had to compare and none of them are even worth a mention in the same sentence as shaq. its just the nature og the game.


as for the pg topic. i would take williams over iverson in a heartbeat. even if it was only for 1 season. iverson is not a winner. iverson no longer has what it takes to be a winner. last thing i would need on my team is a player who needs to fire the ball up 30 times just to get good numbers(FG% be damned). still being said i still dont even think williams is a top 5 pg. if i had to take a current nba point for just 1 season i dont think he would make my top 5. only said out of the players listed i would take him to start a team just cause of he is young. now he could fail. next season he could come out and average 11 ppg on 19% shooting. i doubt it, but it could happen.

[el badman]

even if it was only for 1 season. iverson is not a winner. iverson no longer has what it takes to be a winner.

I almost choked reading that...
Yeah he's getting older and he failed in the Finals once, but I don't think there's many players in the league who have AI's winning attitude. There's no doubt in my mind that AI would alter his own game and take 15 shots a night if he knew that was the recipe to win for sure.

[Sauru]

then he should have tried it this year

[magius]

in terms of talent i'd take ai over williams in a heartbeat. if forced to choose between the two to build a team around I'd choose williams. and not because of his age.

everybody wants to win. unfortunately ai is more of an 'almost winner.'

[Matthew]

So I guess John Stockton is an almost winner too then. I'd much rather Sam Cassell then Stockton in his prime .

[magius]

same argument as the derek fisher must be better than jason kidd because he has a championship thing. we've been over this before.

[Sauru]

again, like stated in another thread, blame jordan for stockton not winning his ring.

[Matthew]

same argument as the derek fisher must be better than jason kidd because he has a championship thing. we've been over this before.

Thanks for proving my point.

Just becuase Iverson ran into the best playoff team (statiscally speaking) in the history of the nba in the finals doesnt mean he's an almost winner.

[Sauru]

i would not call him an almost winner. imo he was a winner but his prime is past him now. sure he is still good and he has game in him but he is not as good as he once was and i no longer think he can lead or carry a team to the title. i think he still takes bad shots and this is something that should have gon eaway with age. now i dont mean never take a bad shot cause every main go to guy on a team will take a few bad shots now and then but iverson shots far to many of them.

so anyway thats why i would not take iverson. i honestly think you can do alot better from alot of other players of the same position. not to mention if we are considering him a poing guard for the sake of this arguement i want a point with a passing mentality. someone who can score but also is always looking to get the team going

[magius]

same argument as the derek fisher must be better than jason kidd because he has a championship thing. we've been over this before.

Thanks for proving my point.

Just becuase Iverson ran into the best playoff team (statiscally speaking) in the history of the nba in the finals doesnt mean he's an almost winner.

actually, no.

in order to be comparable the two players have to play the same role to the same extent. unless you are saying sam cassell was as instrumental to houston as stockton was to the jazz, there is no argument.

i don't understand why calling him an almost winner is so wrong. after all, he did, well, almost win.

[grusom]

I don't think you should put Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Jason Kidd in the same category as Allen Iverson, Baron Davis and Gilbert Arenas - Those guys are scorers more than playmakers - sure, they might play the PG positions, but it's a completely different kind of player.

In my opinion, Deron Williams is a top 5 pure point guard in the league - but he isn't a top 5 player at the PG position.

Top five pure point guards:

Nash
Kidd
Chris Paul/Deron Williams
Billups.

Top five players playing PG:

Nash
Kidd
Arenas
Baron Davis
Allen Iverson