Kobe asks to be traded-Then takes it back-Wants out again

[maes]

I agree with Matthew, i think the media is (surprise) spinning the extremes to make this as interesting as possible.

If Buss made some crazy deal and landed Garnett, would Kobe stay? He's saying he would.

If Buss does absolutely nothing of importance and spends his time tring to snag 23 year old girls as usual, will Kobe stay? Hmmm.

And as usual in trade situations, the first thing you'll hear is the player wants to stay so the team can get a better value. Just remember the Artest situation.

1. Player publically demanded a trade on a news show
2. Management talked with Player
3. Player then publically recalled his words, said he loves his old team and is willing to stick it out
4. Player gets traded for a decent value rather than 12th man scrubs

I also believed RealGM when they told me Oden was staying at Ohio State...not.

[Indy]

Yes, realgm is such a reliable source of information.

What would you have them do, not report the fact that the words "I want to be traded" came out of Kobe's mouth? It isn't realgm's fault that he backed off the demand, he still did make the demands in the first place.

[Matthew]

I agree, that much is obvious from his frustration with the way the Lakers' season ended and likely their struggles in the second half of the regular season as well. Still, I think he might be in two minds as to whether he can win and achieve the level of success he desires with the Lakers, and thus whether or not he wants to stay.

I'm not sure about the second part of that. I think Kobe has got his mind made up, and has his priorities straight. He wants to at least be around some kind of quality teamates. He would prefer this to happen in L.A. (thats where his whole "i want to retire a laker" sentiment comes from), but winning comes first to him.

The Lakers are an absolute mess right now. Can anyone honestly blame Kobe for wanting out?

What would you have them do, not report the fact that the words "I want to be traded" came out of Kobe's mouth? It isn't realgm's fault that he backed off the demand, he still did make the demands in the first place.

I didn't say the link that D Wade or whatever his username is posted was incorrect. I said realgm is notoriously bad for inaccurate news. If they had an article saying September 11 happened I still wouldn't go near it. They are the epitime of everything thats bad with internet information.

[galvatron3000]

Why does the Lakers' organization SEEM to overshadow the Finals when the Spurs are there? Just curious pondering. LOL

[Matthew]

Name another time this happened, Galvatron.

[galvatron3000]

2005 when Phil was returning to the Lakers, that story began at the start of the NBA FInals and was the bigger story throughout.

[Matthew]

Thats funny, I dont remember any of the NBA finals being bumped from the number one spot on sportscenter for a report on a phil jackson rumour.

Thanks for the exageration though

[galvatron3000]

It was but regardless of that I was making a joke against the Lakers because I found it funny, not a serious indictment. Anyone who watched the Finals knows that was a huge story that ran during the 2005 Finals because Phil did return the following season. Why is that such a issue, it's not a big deal or anything that I find to be worth making a fuss over, it's was a joke moreso than anything.

[Matthew]

So blame the media then for their reaction. It's not exactly the Lakers fault they were interested in Phil Jackson.

[galvatron3000]

Exactly, which is why it's a joke because the media does run with it, they overshadow the Finals with Laker news which will probably be the news throughout the Finals until the draft takes place.

Joke meaning I was joke not that the Lakers are a joke or the media is a joke, though the media is a joke

[Indy]

Uh oh. Looks like Kobe backed off his trade demand because Phil Jackson told him that the Lakers are acquiring JO. If this happens, we must get Bynum AND Odom.

[Matthew]

Are you sure Odom would be that beneficial to the Pacers?

[Andrew]

I'm not sure about the second part of that. I think Kobe has got his mind made up, and has his priorities straight. He wants to at least be around some kind of quality teamates. He would prefer this to happen in L.A. (thats where his whole "i want to retire a laker" sentiment comes from), but winning comes first to him.

The Lakers are an absolute mess right now. Can anyone honestly blame Kobe for wanting out?

Even so I think it's fair to say he's in two minds about staying with the Lakers, on one hand eager to stay but on the other he'd welcome a trade if the Lakers aren't prepared to make the right moves to improve the team. Some of the reports seem to indicate that he's now decided firmly against the trade, with everything that's been said I'm not sure Kobe wouldn't still want to be traded, even if it's down the road a bit, should the situation not get any better.

[Indy]

Are you sure Odom would be that beneficial to the Pacers?

No, in the long run he would probably hurt the team by keeping us from really hitting rock bottom and possibly getting a top 1-3 pick.

However, I don't want to poison Granger, Shawne Williams and Ike Diogu with the same thing that's effected Dunleavy and Murphy. I've learned something by having those 2 guys on the team. When young guys start their careers in losing cultures, and continue to lose for 4-5 years they become complacent and apathetic about winning. They begin to accept the NBA as their jobs, winning becomes secondary and that's totally reasonable and human. If you play each game with your heart and soul and you continue to lose over and over then you'll kill yourself. You have to get that sniff of the playoffs to maintain the hunger for a ring. Lamar Odom is a hungry player, despite what his reputation has been for a good part of his career. He would be a good player to help all the young guys, Danny especially.

[magius]

Hold on a minute, you're the guy who claims it was such a travesty Shaq was traded from L.A. after everything that he did for them.

Shaq's trade demand stemmed from money.
Kobe's is about winning.

And yet you say Kobe should be blaming himself? What for? You put Lebron on this Laker team without Kobe and see how far they'll go. Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, even Shaq himself and I would be impressed if they even made the playoffs one of the past two seasons.

Kobe the past two years has played nearly as good as anyone in the history of the league in terms of individual production that helped a team. And before you say "he's playing for himself", look at his willingness to play playmaker in last seasons playoffs against pheonix, and look at the Lakers record when Kobe doesnt get 40+ points.

But I mean it's Kobe after all. When he talks, it's blashemy regardless of what he says. But when its Shaq...

first of all, welcome back.

i thought it was a travesty shaq was traded because he was ousted in favor of a lesser player. also, shaq came straight out and said i want to get traded. kobe is jumping around like a little kid trying to look good from all possible angles, saying things, then taking them back, then saying them again in favor of more politically correct phrasing to cover his ass.

also i believe shaq deserved the money. kobe on the other hand is taking indirect shots at pretty much EVERYONE in the organization. especially his teammates. this is not a mindset that just magically occurs, this is something, apparently that he has been keeping in for a long time. hell, he's been doing it his whole career.

you say kobe is a playmaker, sure, he passes. sometimes. but he is not willing, he is not unselfish. his trust is obviously erratic. when you have a teammate, a leader, that trusts you, that is genuinely happy for you - for YOU - when YOU do well - that is a superstar to build around. that is a mindset that truly inspires. that is what you call a culture, an identity of a team. and a culture of a good team always starts and ends with its superstar, which doesn't speak well for kobe imo. unselfishness is not simply passing the basketball, it is a mindset.

if kobe is mad about not winning, he has nobody to blame but himself. the point is not whether so and so would do better than kobe in the position kobe is in. the point is what KOBE IS DOING. you could say duncan wouldn't do as well, i would say he would win championships. it proves nothing.

imo you cannot build a championship team around kobe as he is today. but he is a great, one of the greatest individual talents in the history of the nba, and you can sell tickets.

but i guess that means nothing. because its me after all, and everything i say is blasphemy.

[Matthew]

Thank you.

I respected your opinion about the Lakers owing Shaq more respect then they showed him. I felt they were far too defensive. Ok shaq did say "pay me motherfucker" to Jerry Buss (which was incredibly stupid when you consider the risk/reward factor), but Shaq was amazing in L.A.

I still respect your stance on what happened there.

But I can't respect your contradiction with Kobe here.

Kobe took the blame for Shaq being traded. Even Jerry Buss said publicly that it was his decision to trade O'Neal. So it really can't be disputed that it wasn't Kobe's fault Shaq got dealt. Even if it was Jerry Buss choosing between the two, it would still not be Kobes fault.

I'd like you to show me something about Kobe indirectly taking shots at everyone in the organization. I really don't want hear say or ex-players with their own agenda's.

But even if you can produce some evidence of that, surely you have to acknowledge the guy you defend(Shaq) did the exact same thing you blast Kobe for allegedly doing. Before Phil Jackson came in, Shaq was quoted saying to many then current teamates that the Lakers will never win with Kobe on the team.

I don't care if you hate the way he plays, or if you hate his arrogance or his self centerd way of thinking. You can't justify your double standard here.

But to further respond to your criticism of Kobe's play; the way the Lakers are constructed now, he has to score for them to be competitive. Can't you see that? The one time it wasn't the case, where it was beneficial for him to distribute the ball, he did. But even then he was chastised by Barkley after that game 7 loss.

What do people expect from him? They say when he shoots too much, he's playing for stats. When he doesnt, its sabotaging. Is the expected standard with Kobe that high that people will find fault with anything short of a championship?

Just to further validate that, look at Steve Nash. He is the best pg in the game. Not the most all around pg, but still he is the best. If he does have a glaring hole its his bad tpg. But does he draw the same ammount of criticism from his skeptics and casual NBA fans that Kobe gets for shooting so much?

No.

So wheres the difference? I'm not going to say race or anything silly like that, becuase when you looked at the most loved athletes in American history, Jordan and Ali are up there. But why is it that a bad turnover is viewed as being more justifable then shooting too much?

I really don't want to hear about kobe's intentions. It's all assumptions. My assumption is there is no way a player of his high standard would ever just continue to shoot to get his numbers up. Once again, I suggest you look up the lakers winning % when Kobe scores 40+ ppg and compare that to when he doesnt.

Also, I never said Duncan wouldn't do as well. I said I'd be suprised if he got this current Laker team to the playoffs once.

And I never said what you said is blasphemy. It's a double standard though when it comes to Shaq and Kobe.

[magius]

Kobe took the blame for Shaq being traded. Even Jerry Buss said publicly that it was his decision to trade O'Neal. So it really can't be disputed that it wasn't Kobe's fault Shaq got dealt. Even if it was Jerry Buss choosing between the two, it would still not be Kobes fault.

i said this in another thread, so i'll quote it:

did buss tell kobe to go out and test the free agent market? did kobe say he DIDN'T want shaq traded? the reason kobe even tried the free agent market is because he wanted the challenge of playing without shaq. there is no other reason he would do so - you become a free agent if you want to play a bigger role, you want to win, or you want to play for your favorite team. The lakers win (or rather, won), and are kobe's favorite team. do the math. Now that he can't carry a team to success, he's trying to dig himself out of his own shit and heaping it on others.

its the same tactic politicans use over and over, and is clearly transparent. for example, in the instance we are discussing, kobe says i want to get traded. then he rescinds and says get me west or trade me. then he rescinds again and says i want to retire a laker. then he rescinds AGAIN and says make the team better NOW or whats the point? then he rescinds again, and claims innocence.

how are the lakers supposed to get better NOW when their best trade bait is injured and on to surgery? when they have zero cap space in free agency? does kobe say "i want to get traded?" no. but what, realistically, are their options with his contract coming up in 09? all the other teams in the nba want to get better too, they are not just going to give players they arleady have away.

he employs a tactic that covers his ass, while leaving you no option but to inevitably do what he wants you to do but never directly says. its politics 101 applied fairly crudely.

But to further respond to your criticism of Kobe's play; the way the Lakers are constructed now, he has to score for them to be competitive. Can't you see that? The one time it wasn't the case, where it was beneficial for him to distribute the ball, he did. But even then he was chastised by Barkley after that game 7 loss.

which is exactly the point. for a team built around kobe to win, he has to score. you can't build a team around kobe and ask him not to score - which is why i wouldn't build a team around kobe.

barkley and others criticized him because he was nonchalant. there was no aggression to his "playmaking", no purpose, no movement.

I'd like you to show me something about Kobe indirectly taking shots at everyone in the organization. I really don't want hear say or ex-players with their own agenda's.

you say make the team better or trade me. how would you feel if you were on "the team." more so, how would you feel if you were odom? who would definitely be in any deal of merit. you say get west or trade me, you say the head office is in chaos. how would you feel if you were part of the head office, not even only mitch. it seems even without shaq, he is finding people to take shots at. perhaps it is in his personality to need to.

and if i dig up the past and find relevant quotes, which i can, you will say its because they have some hidden, nihilistic agenda. perhaps it is just the truth.

imo, the guy is a great individual superstar. but not a leader you want to lead, and thus not a superstar to build a team around.

What do people expect from him? They say when he shoots too much, he's playing for stats. When he doesnt, its sabotaging. Is the expected standard with Kobe that high that people will find fault with anything short of a championship?

to be honest i don't really expect anything. i just said i would never build a team around him personally.

Just to further validate that, look at Steve Nash. He is the best pg in the game. Not the most all around pg, but still he is the best. If he does have a glaring hole its his bad tpg. But does he draw the same ammount of criticism from his skeptics and casual NBA fans that Kobe gets for shooting so much?

No.

So wheres the difference? I'm not going to say race or anything silly like that, becuase when you looked at the most loved athletes in American history, Jordan and Ali are up there. But why is it that a bad turnover is viewed as being more justifable then shooting too much?

he wins, and his team is a contender.

Also, I never said Duncan wouldn't do as well. I said I'd be suprised if he got this current Laker team to the playoffs once.

well, in that case, i'd be surprised if him on the lakers didn't win a championship once.

[Matthew]

This is going to turn into a quote orgy.

did buss tell kobe to go out and test the free agent market? did kobe say he DIDN'T want shaq traded? the reason kobe even tried the free agent market is because he wanted the challenge of playing without shaq. there is no other reason he would do so - you become a free agent if you want to play a bigger role, you want to win, or you want to play for your favorite team. The lakers win (or rather, won), and are kobe's favorite team. do the math. Now that he can't carry a team to success, he's trying to dig himself out of his own shit and heaping it on others.

Shaq was gone either way. If Michael Jordan couldn't stop the Bulls from letting Phil Jackson go, what hope did Kobe have (if he wanted to) of getting Shaq to stay?

Also Kobe probably stayed because of the money (the Clippers couldn't offer quite the same as the Lakers could), also from what Kobe has said recently the Laker management ensured him that they had a plan to rebuild quickly.

And also to draw upon what Kobe has recently said, he never demanded the trade becuase of the failed rebuilding. He demanded the trade because the Laker management seemed content with this current Laker squad and said they had no plans of making any significant trades.

Don't try to interpret somthing that's not there.

its the same tactic politicans use over and over, and is clearly transparent. for example, in the instance we are discussing, kobe says i want to get traded. then he rescinds and says get me west or trade me. then he rescinds again and says i want to retire a laker. then he rescinds AGAIN and says make the team better NOW or whats the point? then he rescinds again, and claims innocence.

He recinded once. Thats it. He never said "get me Jerry west or trade me". He never claimed his innocence. Seriously, I know you don't like him. I don't like him either. But look at the situation objectively.

how are the lakers supposed to get better NOW when their best trade bait is injured and on to surgery? when they have zero cap space in free agency? does kobe say "i want to get traded?" no. but what, realistically, are their options with his contract coming up in 09? all the other teams in the nba want to get better too, they are not just going to give players they arleady have away.

Jason Kidd was available. Kevin Garnett (despite what Riot will regurgitate to you) is available. Jermaine O'Neal is available. Rashard Lewis is available. Grant Hill is a free agent. Kobe isn't demanding they get them. He is demanding they go after them and try to get them.

which is exactly the point. for a team built around kobe to win, he has to score. you can't build a team around kobe and ask him not to score - which is why i wouldn't build a team around kobe.

They may be just one peice away from contending. The suns were just one steve nash away from becoming a contendor. The pistons were just a rasheed wallace away from a championship.

If the Lakers get a KG, O'Neal, Jason Kidd or whoever, are you saying they wont be contenders?

barkley and others criticized him because he was nonchalant. there was no aggression to his "playmaking", no purpose, no movement.

Like Barkley never lost any big games in his career.

you say make the team better or trade me. how would you feel if you were on "the team." more so, how would you feel if you were odom? who would definitely be in any deal of merit. you say get west or trade me, you say the head office is in chaos. how would you feel if you were part of the head office, not even only mitch. it seems even without shaq, he is finding people to take shots at. perhaps it is in his personality to need to.

Team sports is a kill or be killed society. Personally, I like Odom more then I do Kobe. But honestly, Odom is not a good player to have next to Kobe. They contradict each others skills rather then compliment. Lamar Odom is much easier to get equal vale (or close to) in a trade then Kobe.

But you only talk about Kobe's shots he throws at people. What about the shots he takes? You told me to put myself in Odoms shoes, you put yourself in Kobes:

You have the chance to goto the Clippers (with brand, maggette etc) and play for them after the Shaq trade. You get assured there is a rebuilding plan for the Lakers so you stay.

The media and the general public assume that you were the reason that Shaq was traded. You get virtually no support from the people responsable for the trade and hang you out to dry.

The next season you get injured, miss 20 + games. The Lakers miss the playoffs.

Then next season you have Smush frrigen Parker as your starting pg. You have players like Kwame, Brian Cook, Andrew Bynum, vujacic, Luke Walton and Chris Mihm as the supporting cast. Despite this you average an incredible 35 ppg and lead your team to 45 wins and push Phoenix to 7 games before losing.

Then this season, in a season where the roster is worse (George was replacement with Radmonovic) you are comming off a knee surgery and you have to score 50+ in 4 straight games just to get some kind of momentum in the regular season. You end up leading your team to the playoffs before a lifeless first round exit.

Then after all that, you get told that there are no plans to do anything with the roster or to even go after any available players that could help.

I dont know about you but I'd be pissed at that kind of a response.

he wins, and his team is a contender.

Steve Nash wins? orly. Last time I checked, Kobe has 3 championship rings and 4 trips to the finals. How many times has Nash been to the finals let alone won a championship? Yeah I don't expect you to answer that question, just like how you managed to avoid the double standard contradiction I pointed out you have with Shaq.

[magius]

Steve Nash wins? orly. Last time I checked, Kobe has 3 championship rings and 4 trips to the finals. How many times has Nash been to the finals let alone won a championship? Yeah I don't expect you to answer that question, just like how you managed to avoid the double standard contradiction I pointed out you have with Shaq.

well steve nash is the player the suns built around, he is also a back to back mvp. kobe has never won a championship with a team built around him.

i thought i answered the double standard contradiction thing, please spell it out more clearly, so i can reply more precisely. in fact i am not sure where the contradiction occurs. i am criticising kobe for the fashion of his trade request, not the trade request itself (except for the fact it hurts teammates, etc.)

Shaq was gone either way. If Michael Jordan couldn't stop the Bulls from letting Phil Jackson go, what hope did Kobe have (if he wanted to) of getting Shaq to stay?

in your own words, at least "he tried." they are two seperate cases in so many different ways. one involves personnel, the other a star player. mj openly wanted phil to stay, kobe didn't say anything. kobe was openly testing free agent waters. you cannot say that mj led to pj getting let go. while on the other hand kobe had actual bargaining power to deliver an ultimatum either way, and it could be said that that directly led to shaq being let go. in the very most absolute least it didn't help it.

Also Kobe probably stayed because of the money (the Clippers couldn't offer quite the same as the Lakers could), also from what Kobe has said recently the Laker management ensured him that they had a plan to rebuild quickly.

if it was only about the money he would've resigned far earlier without testing or threatening to test free agency. it is no coincidence that he signed only after shaq was gone, because it pretty much gave him everything he wanted at the time.

And also to draw upon what Kobe has recently said, he never demanded the trade becuase of the failed rebuilding. He demanded the trade because the Laker management seemed content with this current Laker squad and said they had no plans of making any significant trades.

Don't try to interpret somthing that's not there.

find where i said he demanded a traded because of the failed rebuilding and quote it.

"He demanded the trade because the Laker management seemed content with this current Laker squad and said they had no plans of making any significant trades. "

is a nice way of saying make the team better or trade me. yes? and that is what i said.

He recinded once. Thats it. He never said "get me Jerry west or trade me". He never claimed his innocence. Seriously, I know you don't like him. I don't like him either. But look at the situation objectively.

radio transcript May 30, 2007, 8:13 PM ET:

SAS: It's not a situation, I know before you reportedly said that you would like them to get Jerry West back. Are you saying now emphatically, regardless of what they done, you want out of Los Angeles?

KB: Yeah, I would like to be traded. And as tough as it is to say that, as tough as it is to come to that conclusion, you know, there's no other -- there's no other -- there's no other alternative, you know. They obviously want to move in a different direction in terms of, you know, rebuilding. I wish they would have told me that, you know, prior to me re-signing with the team. They obviously want to move in a different direction.

SAS: But they want to keep you though, Kobe. They want to move in a different direction, but they don't want to do it without you.

KB: You know, you got to be up front about that, man. Three years ago when I was resigning, they should have, you know, told me that they wanted to rebuild. Would have affected my decision. Don't tell me one thing and do another.

SAS: Is there anything that the Los Angeles Lakers could do to make you change your mind and decide that you do not want to be traded?

KB: No.

SAS: Nothing?

KB: No.

Kobe Bryant spoke with coach Phil Jackson and backed off his midday trade request made on the Stephen A. Smith radio show.

"I don't want to go anywhere, this is my team," Bryant told KLAC radio. "I love it here. I called Phil, man, he and I talked, it was an emotional conversation, but he just said, 'You know what, Kobe? Let us try to figure this thing out.'

i think that pretty much sums it up. and by innocence i used the wrong word, what i meant was back off his trade demand. i used the word innocence, because he can claim it in the event he is traded.

Jason Kidd was available. Kevin Garnett (despite what Riot will regurgitate to you) is available. Jermaine O'Neal is available. Rashard Lewis is available. Grant Hill is a free agent. Kobe isn't demanding they get them. He is demanding they go after them and try to get them.

they did go after them and tried to get them. in regards to kg - he's not available for anything but another star and a high draft pick, in regards to kidd - they thought the deal was unbalanced, in regards to jo - bird has better options if that is going to happen. rashard and hill are too expensive to sign. and la trade bait, again, is injured and on to surgery - who in their right mind would trade fair value for them right now?

if he is simply demanding they go after them, not neccessarily get them, then i think la has done that. every team in the league wants to get better just as much, it is not like la is deliberately short changing themselves.

They may be just one peice away from contending. The suns were just one steve nash away from becoming a contendor. The pistons were just a rasheed wallace away from a championship.

If the Lakers get a KG, O'Neal, Jason Kidd or whoever, are you saying they wont be contenders?

no, i am saying i wouldn't build a team around kobe. of course if he has another superstar he hypothetically could perhaps win, we've already seen that happen. i am just saying i wouldn't build a team around him.

Like Barkley never lost any big games in his career.

not talking about barkley.

Team sports is a kill or be killed society. Personally, I like Odom more then I do Kobe. But honestly, Odom is not a good player to have next to Kobe. They contradict each others skills rather then compliment. Lamar Odom is much easier to get equal vale (or close to) in a trade then Kobe.

how is it a kill or be killed society?

the point is there are not many players in my mind that complement kobe well, are available, and can do so in a way that still impacts the game at 100% of their ability. which again is why i wouldn't build around him.

Then after all that, you get told that there are no plans to do anything with the roster or to even go after any available players that could help.

I dont know about you but I'd be pissed at that kind of a response.

there is no way they can do that RIGHT NOW. trade bait = injured + surgery. money = 0. what can they do RIGHT NOW? you tell me.

But you only talk about Kobe's shots he throws at people. What about the shots he takes? You told me to put myself in Odoms shoes, you put yourself in Kobes:

okay.

You have the chance to goto the Clippers (with brand, maggette etc) and play for them after the Shaq trade. You get assured there is a rebuilding plan for the Lakers so you stay.

sounds good, its my favorite team, i get more money, and i'm the man.

The media and the general public assume that you were the reason that Shaq was traded. You get virtually no support from the people responsable for the trade and hang you out to dry.

i am lying to myself. like magius on nbaliveforums.com said I was the reason shaq got traded.

The next season you get injured, miss 20 + games. The Lakers miss the playoffs.

oh no. i've missed the playoffs. what have i done. next year i'll show them.

Then next season you have Smush frrigen Parker as your starting pg. You have players like Kwame, Brian Cook, Andrew Bynum, vujacic, Luke Walton and Chris Mihm as the supporting cast. Despite this you average an incredible 35 ppg and lead your team to 45 wins and push Phoenix to 7 games before losing.

i'm so good. i led a bunch of schmucks to game 7 against phoenix. even though the media and the general public keep saying they are schmucks, I don't do anything to deter it.

Then this season, in a season where the roster is worse (George was replacement with Radmonovic) you are comming off a knee surgery and you have to score 50+ in 4 straight games just to get some kind of momentum in the regular season. You end up leading your team to the playoffs before a lifeless first round exit.

oh no, i lost in the first round.

[---]

You act like Kobe is all about statistics, being the man and building his legacy as one of the greatest individual players of all time rather than winning.

Kobe would not have just said "Oh no" to missing the playoffs or losing in the first round. We all know he has incredible drive, probably the most of any player since Michael Jordan. Cut him some slack, if he didn't care so much about losing and only cares about being the 'man' and scoring points, he wouldn't be asking for a trade. he is in the perfect situation to be the 'man' right there in LA, why would he openly welcome a trade?

The guy wants to win, and since Shaq left (who the Lakers management said they were not willing pay, not Kobe's fault) he has been given this team that is basically, well, Lamar Odom and not much else. The front office had the pieces to pull a blockbuster trade this year. They gave away an All Star in Caron Butler for one of the worst picks in NBA history. They have made bad decisions, and theres no hiding that the Lakers are going no where right now, and wont be for a long time. That's obvious when you draft a 17 year old center.

Kobe wants to win. However he won't, no matter how much he does, as a Laker with this current team. That's why he wants out.

[Matthew]

Wow.

well steve nash is the player the suns built around, he is also a back to back mvp. kobe has never won a championship with a team built around him.

Steve Nash was the last player the added to become a contender. Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson were already Suns before he and Quentin Richardson came to Pheonix.

i thought i answered the double standard contradiction thing, please spell it out more clearly, so i can reply more precisely. in fact i am not sure where the contradiction occurs. i am criticising kobe for the fashion of his trade request, not the trade request itself (except for the fact it hurts teammates, etc.)

I respected your opinion about the Lakers owing Shaq more respect then they showed him. I felt they were far too defensive. Ok shaq did say "pay me motherfucker" to Jerry Buss (which was incredibly stupid when you consider the risk/reward factor), but Shaq was amazing in L.A.

I still respect your stance on what happened there.

But I can't respect your contradiction with Kobe here.

Kobe took the blame for Shaq being traded. Even Jerry Buss said publicly that it was his decision to trade O'Neal. So it really can't be disputed that it wasn't Kobe's fault Shaq got dealt. Even if it was Jerry Buss choosing between the two, it would still not be Kobes fault.

I'd like you to show me something about Kobe indirectly taking shots at everyone in the organization. I really don't want hear say or ex-players with their own agenda's.

But even if you can produce some evidence of that, surely you have to acknowledge the guy you defend(Shaq) did the exact same thing you blast Kobe for allegedly doing. Before Phil Jackson came in, Shaq was quoted saying to many then current teamates that the Lakers will never win with Kobe on the team.

I don't care if you hate the way he plays, or if you hate his arrogance or his self centerd way of thinking. You can't justify your double standard here.

in your own words, at least "he tried." they are two seperate cases in so many different ways. one involves personnel, the other a star player. mj openly wanted phil to stay, kobe didn't say anything. kobe was openly testing free agent waters. you cannot say that mj led to pj getting let go. while on the other hand kobe had actual bargaining power to deliver an ultimatum either way, and it could be said that that directly led to shaq being let go. in the very most absolute least it didn't help it.

What is he sposed to do? Off the court, Kobe is responsible for Kobe. He isn't Shaq's father. He doesn't have to go into Jerry Buss and say "pay shaq, motherfucker" like Shaq said to him while he was at courtside.

Shaq dug his own grave in LA. Kobe not demanding that shaq get an extension is not the same as him demanding shaq to be traded.

if it was only about the money he would've resigned far earlier without testing or threatening to test free agency. it is no coincidence that he signed only after shaq was gone, because it pretty much gave him everything he wanted at the time.

So you think Kobe only opted out to get the Laker management to crawl to him. If thats the case, do you also think that:

Shaq only demanded a trade to get the Lakers to crawl to him?

Karl Malone only retired to get Laker management to crawl to him?

Allen Iverson demanded a trade to get Philly management to crawl to him?

Steve Nash opted out in 2004 to get Dallas management to crawl to him?

I look forward to your response to those ones.

find where i said he demanded a traded because of the failed rebuilding and quote it.

Are you saying he's not demanding a trade because of the quality of his teamates?

i think that pretty much sums it up. and by innocence i used the wrong word, what i meant was back off his trade demand. i used the word innocence, because he can claim it in the event he is traded.

Him saying he wants to be traded, but also saying he loves LA doesnt mean he backed off his word.

they did go after them and tried to get them. in regards to kg - he's not available for anything but another star and a high draft pick, in regards to kidd - they thought the deal was unbalanced, in regards to jo - bird has better options if that is going to happen. rashard and hill are too expensive to sign. and la trade bait, again, is injured and on to surgery - who in their right mind would trade fair value for them right now?

They're absolute idiots if they feel Andrew Bynum is too high value for Jason Kidd. I don't think there's a big market for KG or Jermaine O'Neal. Chicago has had plenty of chances to go after Garnett and they haven't. Who else would be interested?

if he is simply demanding they go after them, not neccessarily get them, then i think la has done that. every team in the league wants to get better just as much, it is not like la is deliberately short changing themselves.

By them saying they are satisfied with the roster and there won't be any changes, then yes I think they are short changing themselves. Remember, these are the same guys who traded Shaq.

no, i am saying i wouldn't build a team around kobe. of course if he has another superstar he hypothetically could perhaps win, we've already seen that happen. i am just saying i wouldn't build a team around him.

So ok, if Garnett/ J.O./ Kidd are available and hypothetically the Lakers do indeed get one of those players, and the Lakers reach say the conference finals, are you saying you would not have built around Kobe?

You can have the greatest players of all time and put them by themselves, give them scrubs and say when it fails "well i wouldnt have built around them either".

not talking about barkley.

Convenient.

how is it a kill or be killed society?

How is it not? Think about free agents. Think about trades. Think about drafting. Every team is looking out for themself in one way or another. Teams are trying to do any other teams any favours.

the point is there are not many players in my mind that complement kobe well, are available, and can do so in a way that still impacts the game at 100% of their ability. which again is why i wouldn't build around him.

The lakers pretty much built around Shaq and Kobe and it worked. But staying true with the comparison with Shaq, how many guys have complimented him exactly? Or better yet, how many guys have complimented Shaq better then the evil Kobe Bryant?

there is no way they can do that RIGHT NOW. trade bait = injured + surgery. money = 0. what can they do RIGHT NOW? you tell me.

They fucked that up and dont seem to even be motivated to even attempt to bring in someone who could help Kobe.

Think about West. Do you think he said "well shit, theres no way we can get kobe" in 1996? Of course not. He went out there and got a deal done.

Thinking back to that draft, why would they be so against going after and bringing Derek Fisher back? He could help them immediately, and Utah if they want to get anywhere they will have to have a legitimate shooting guard.

Quote:
You have the chance to goto the Clippers (with brand, maggette etc) and play for them after the Shaq trade. You get assured there is a rebuilding plan for the Lakers so you stay.


sounds good, its my favorite team, i get more money, and i'm the man.

Quote:
The media and the general public assume that you were the reason that Shaq was traded. You get virtually no support from the people responsable for the trade and hang you out to dry.

i am lying to myself. like magius on nbaliveforums.com said I was the reason shaq got traded.
Quote:

The next season you get injured, miss 20 + games. The Lakers miss the playoffs.

oh no. i've missed the playoffs. what have i done. next year i'll show them.

Quote:
Then next season you have Smush frrigen Parker as your starting pg. You have players like Kwame, Brian Cook, Andrew Bynum, vujacic, Luke Walton and Chris Mihm as the supporting cast. Despite this you average an incredible 35 ppg and lead your team to 45 wins and push Phoenix to 7 games before losing.

i'm so good. i led a bunch of schmucks to game 7 against phoenix. even though the media and the general public keep saying they are schmucks, I don't do anything to deter it.

Quote:
Then this season, in a season where the roster is worse (George was replacement with Radmonovic) you are comming off a knee surgery and you have to score 50+ in 4 straight games just to get some kind of momentum in the regular season. You end up leading your team to the playoffs before a lifeless first round exit.


oh no, i lost in the first round.

Amazing.

[ThaLiveKing]

If Pacers are trading JO, we have to atleast get Bynum and some Draft Picks. . .Lamar would be good too. I wouldn't mind getting Turiaf too

[maes]

Now it looks like Kobe is saying his "retraction" was not a retraction.

Still later, Bryant spoke to the Los Angeles Times and reversed positions again, repeating his desire for a trade.

"Nothing's changed," Bryant told the paper. "It's just a matter of I don't want to go no place else. I don't have much of a choice. When things like this go down, you just sit back. What can I do? It's like a broken record."

The Los Angeles Times reporter then asked Bryant if he still wanted to be traded, to which Bryant quickly and firmly replied: "yes."

[Gedas]

I wonder, how many times will the USA press chage Kobes position?

[TSquared]

damn..this is like a dilemma for kobe.. i think he's still a bit confused where his career should be going.. or is he just spinning things up to up his popularity.. so we keep guessing..