Amare calls Bowen, Ginobili, Spurs "dirty"

[sucram]

A fucking great game, the ending was incredible. Fully know what Charles was implying afterwards, pretty tough call for the league. With regards to Nash's comments, could he possibly penalised? Maybe a fine or something, Not that i personally see anything wrong with that. The emotion in this series has been amazing.

[Andrew]

Flopping is something lots of players do in the league, Ginolbili is not the the poster child for flops, IMO. We can complie a list of players here for flops that go "unnoticed"

He's certainly not the only one so I guess in that respect it might be a bit of an unfair reputation but he is one of the more prolific floppers in the league.

[TSquared]

thank god for kobe bryant who knows how to land his fair share of elbows against the spurs.. im starting to love kobe..

[Sauru]

tell ya what, the spurs are not helping thier cause if they are trying to prove they are not a dirty team.

[magius]

its the playoffs, suck it up and get over it. when, in the history of forever, has their ever been a fan not overanalyzing incidents that hinder their own team's success (while, of course, turning blind eye to their own team's indiscretions)? Never. and i mean NEVER. it seems every playoffs, every series there are these exact same accusations being made over and over and over again on a revolving list of players. i'm beginning to think that 'dirty,' in nba slang, perhaps simply refers to 'begrudged, i-will-never-on-my-dead-grandmother's-mother's-grave-admit-it, respect.' it sure reads that way.

consider this, the players, you know, the ones who actually play against bowen, voted him the toughest defender in the league; do you vote a blatantly 'dirty' defender the toughest defender in the league? personally, i think these 'dirty' accusations are more a case of frustrated star players and their massively hurt egos getting shut down by some 6ppg talentless CBA schmuck.

anyway, pop pretty much summed it up imo - "he's young" (on amare's comments, though it could be pretty much applied to quite a lot of comments).

[Sauru]

i think you should actually watch the games. that might help you open your eyes as to whats going on in this series. anyone who does not see that the spurs players and just flat out playing dirty is an idiot. so what if its the playoffs, that gives someone a reason to try and injure another player? but hey like i said, good for horry, he did what he needed to, he traded his sorry self for amare and diaw, great trade for the spurs.

[Andrew]

its the playoffs, suck it up and get over it. when, in the history of forever, has their ever been a fan not overanalyzing incidents that hinder their own team's success (while, of course, turning blind eye to their own team's indiscretions)? Never. and i mean NEVER. it seems every playoffs, every series there are these exact same accusations being made over and over and over again on a revolving list of players. i'm beginning to think that 'dirty,' in nba slang, perhaps simply refers to 'begrudged, i-will-never-on-my-dead-grandmother's-mother's-grave-admit-it, respect.' it sure reads that way.

It has become a trend the last couple of years to blame losses on the officiating particularly in the Playoffs but that doesn't mean all accusations are baseless claims that follow that ideal. As fans we have to accept that referees aren't infallible and calls get missed on both sides, but that doesn't mean certain decisions or actions are above question or criticism.

consider this, the players, you know, the ones who actually play against bowen, voted him the toughest defender in the league; do you vote a blatantly 'dirty' defender the toughest defender in the league? personally, i think these 'dirty' accusations are more a case of frustrated star players and their massively hurt egos getting shut down by some 6ppg talentless CBA schmuck.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Bruce Bowen is an excellent defender using legitimate tactics but just because he's a tough and skilled defender doesn't mean he never resorts to cheap or dirty tactics. You can call it frustration and I would agree to a certain extent because if nothing else ego makes it difficult to acknowledge that you've been bested, but when a player is positioning himself to roll ankles, connecting on flying kicks to an opponent's head and sweeping his feet under airborne players in a questionable manner, there's grounds for complaint.

[Metsis]

Its official... Spurs are playing dirty and getting support from the league office to support their strategy...

I can call it a strategy already with the quantity of these things against the Suns in this play-off series... A strategy that is widely supported by the Spurs management and coaching staff...

How can the league office just watch this by... Or does Pop have some incriminating evidence against Stern and Stu for insurance that the decisions on these things go Spurs way???????????

[---]

If Shawn Marion keeps on playing the way he is, they won't need Amare.

This game, with all the publicity around it and the fact its known as the unofficial Finals, could finally be the point where Shawn Marion gets the attention he deserves. Most NBA fans when thinking about the Suns thin, Nash, Amare then Marion - deservedly so, but the guy is incredibly talented, no weaknesses.

[magius]

i think you should actually watch the games. that might help you open your eyes as to whats going on in this series. anyone who does not see that the spurs players and just flat out playing dirty is an idiot. so what if its the playoffs, that gives someone a reason to try and injure another player? but hey like i said, good for horry, he did what he needed to, he traded his sorry self for amare and diaw, great trade for the spurs.

the spurs are playing no dirtier than any other team in the nba. their play is magnified because they have been contenders for the past decade, and as more and more fans of opposing teams watch their team fall, the bias grows and grows. its been the same for every great team in the nba, with all the aplogists coming out in herds like the predictable sheep that they are. because of that i understand the heat of the moment backlash, though that won't prevent me from at least trying to provide some clarity.

btw, why is that every time one doesn't agree with anothers views someone almost always inevitably says "you should watch the game.... idiot." thats a little childish, yes? also a little self centered... implying that you, and everyone who agrees with you, are the only ones in the entire world to have actually watched the game... somehow gaining superhuman, omniscient, universal truth abilities. give me a break.

read it here first. robert horry can TELL THE FUTURE. how else could he have known that amare and diaw would come off the bench in defense of nash, thus getting themselves suspended? no wonder he is always so calm hitting those big shots! he already knows he's going to hit them! amazing...

horry committed a stupid foul, no question. but by the reaction, if i hadn't seen the play, i would've thought it was the second coming of the frickin piston/pacer brawl for chrissake. ridiculous . i think there has been at least one play of similar calibre commited in pretty much every playoff series.

answer me this, in their decade of post season runs, playing dirty, like the shit marinated in bile they are, how many players have actually, without question, been intentionally injured playing against the spurs? how many stars? year after year after year, if these guys play as dirty as alleged, wouldn't SOMEONE have to have been injured by now? especially in the playoffs? or has the cia granted them invisible limbs now? why didn't those thugs, those devil children of the bad boy pistions, who can get away with murder and rape, just break shaq and kobe's leg for fucks sake? obviously thats the only way they can win...

you guys are overexagerrating, watching replays over and over, in slow motion, zoomed in, imagining crazy conspiracies. yes, parker projectile launched his forehead into nash nose with pinpoint accuracy on purpose. obviously.

bowens groin hit on nash was an accident, he walked over to nash aftewards telling him so, and that was that. the only sun complaining about bowen is amare. concerning bowen trying to decapitate amare's leg, dantoni himself said "it was no big deal." bell refused to call him dirty.

if you want to talk about history, look at the people who started the criticsm of bowen this season. vince carter, steve francis, isiah thomas, and ray allen. look at their history of whining, and dramatic press conference fabrications. man up.

bowen plays tight, and always closes in on the jumpshot. he plays the body, and creates as little space as possible for his guard as he can. he just crowds them, and he is a pest. he doesn't cross the line, he's on it.

the guy has played, what? 3 straight 82 game seasons? plus some playoff run games.... and you guys have four or five videos of how evil he is? out of hundreds of games, thousands of plays - four or five incidents?! and not one of those videos are absolutely unquestionable? seriously...

A sampling of former players turned NBA executives produced generally favorable views of Bowen's play. Yet while acknowledging that Bowen might come close to crossing the line, no one was willing to completely condemn "Eddie Scissorhands" (as Phil Jackson once dubbed Bowen) for his questionable tactics.

"He's a very tough, hard-nosed defender who crowds you and tries to get under your skin," said an Eastern Conference general manager who spoke on condition of anonymity. "He's basically a pest.

"[But] I don't think he's sticking his foot out intentionally. He's a defensive player. He does what he can to bother you and throw you off your game. But knowing him and knowing his character, I don't think he'd go out there and intentionally try to hurt somebody."

Said another East executive: "I see it as just a guy playing hard defense. Does he grab, hold and play physically? Yeah. But is he perceived around the league as a guy who goes out to hurt people? I don't think so."

[galvatron3000]

Tonight an almost identical game from game 5. Very similiar. Great game

[el badman]

Great post magius
Glad I'm not the only one thinking that all of this is getting a bit extreme...

[---]

the guy has played, what? 3 straight 82 game seasons? plus some playoff run games.... and you guys have four or five videos of how evil he is? out of hundreds of games, thousands of plays - four or five incidents?! and not one of those videos are absolutely unquestionable? seriously...

Thats actually quite alot of unsportsmanship-like plays for 3 or so seasons worth. Name another player in the same time frame with more plays like that, especially someone who has done so and seen very minimal action from the league, if any. The only guy I can think of off the top of my head is James Posey.

Personally I think it has been blown up and I don't think Bowen intends to hurt anyone. What I do think is he frustrates players on purpose, and scares them, playing a mental game, making them angry and geting them out of there zone or drawing players into making stupid decisions that only hurts themselves and their team. He still shouldn't be doing it though, because one day he really might hurt someone badly. It's an unsafe way to play the game.

EDIT: And for or five is a bit low, not to mention some of these plays the call doesn't go against Bowen, but rather someone from the other team for reacting. Right now I can think of:

- Kicking Ray Allen in the back
- Kicking Wally Szczerbiak in the face
- Stepping under Steve Francis' foot, injuring him
- Stepping under Jamal Crawford's foot
- Kneeing Steve Nash
- Kicking Amare Stoudemire's foot out from underneath him
- Undercutting Anthony Parker, injuring his ankle
- Stepping under Vince Carter's foot, tripping him

[Andrew]

bowen plays tight, and always closes in on the jumpshot. he plays the body, and creates as little space as possible for his guard as he can. he just crowds them, and he is a pest. he doesn't cross the line, he's on it.

Yes, he certainly does that. He's an excellent defender, no question about that. But I don't think landing a flying kick to someone's head can really be called closing in on the jumpshot, kicking a player in the back isn't creating as little space as possible and dangerously undercutting an airborne player goes a little beyond crowding the defender. Is he out trying to injure his opponent on every play? No, of course not. If nothing else it would be painfully obvious and he'd be out of the league. But there have been incidents where it's fair to say he's crossed the line or employed tactics that are bit dangerous or reckless.

You're right, it's a bit presumptuous to suggest that Bowen is unquestionably a dirty player and that the incidents that are often brought up as evidence to support that claim are undeniably premeditated attacks but in all fairness, aren't you also putting forward your point of view as being unquestionable as well, given you seem to be suggesting that the opposing view is skewed and resorts to exaggeration?

In relation to the number of games Bowen has played, games with noteworthy incidents are outnumbered by games that are incident-free. But that doesn't mean those incidents don't raise a few questions. How many times can someone be given the benefit of the doubt before their actions arouse further suspicion? When five or more incidents can be named offhand, one can't help but wonder if there's more to the situation than it being an accident.

Even if all those incidents are accidents as a result of defensive tactics that are on the line as you put it, it's puzzling that the league hasn't taken any action against him considering they're generally very strict on rulings like that. Other players have been suspended for contact deemed dangerous or unnecessarily excessive, even in cases that appear (or vehemently professed to be) accidental. It's odd that Bowen has been involved in his share of incidents and nothing has been done since that tends to be the NBA's MO.

Having said that, I don't buy into the whole idea of a "Spurs conspiracy". Odd as it may be that Bowen has escaped scrutiny where other players haven't, I don't believe the league is trying to influence the series or has instructed the referees to do what they can to help the Spurs advance.

[magius]

i think the problem with bowen isn't that he's deliberately undercutting. i think its just the nature of his defense to crowd as much as possible to interfere with the jumpshot. he closes in aggressively and sometimes his momentum can push him further than perhaps he intended. can this be dangerous? perhaps. but how do you stop players from doing that which can also be construed as good hard nosed defense? do you suspend them and make the nba softer than it already is? do you foul them to same effect? either way i wouldn't call it 'dirty.'

the wally flying kick is pretty scary, and i think he should have been suspended for one game for that - even though it was by no means 'dirty' or pre-meditated imo. kicking allen in the back is perhaps pushing it a little in regards to the definition of 'kick', it was more akin to 'get off me.' often times people fall on others or are fouled midair in layup to far more vehement reaction.

that said i wouldn't mind if bowen is suspended in the future (which i fear is bound to occur; sadly, in event, it will probably be due to public pressure than the actual occurence) i would mind if he is suspended for being' dirty.' for i think that just isn't the case, as you said, i don't think his actions are pre-meditated or intentional at all.

i'm not saying that my views are unquestionable, only that the argument is debatable. it is not straight cut out and out he is dirty for a fact, or that he should be suspended, or 'that was absolutely this' as it seems the topic had been implying. the videos, the evidence, have not been without doubt, and that is why he hasn't been suspended.

he plays within the rules, to the edge of the rules. some people complain that this isn't 'purist' or that it is somehow 'unfair.' i think its more purist than (for example) all these routine bs moves to the basket and obvious flopping to draw fouls from almost every star in the nba. never in the history of the nba has it been so easy to get to the line. so who are the rules really benefitting here? perhaps in the future they will be amended to zero contact and a 2 foot gap, but until then i really don't see bowen as a 'dirty' player.

what peeves me really is calling the spurs a 'dirty' team. does manu flop? yes. but who doesnt? everyone from nash to fisher, everyone does it. manu flops awkardly, thats it. horry did the exact same thing that baron did. in fact it is a foul i've seen countless times in the past. never before has it been called dirty with such enthusiasm. in fact the spurs are maybe one of the most passive champions in nba history, aggression is usually instigated by the opponent!

'dirty' is simply public propaganda imo, a defense mechanism if you will, against straight up losing. its an excuse, plain and simple. suns fans would probably call the dalhi lama or st. theresa's reincar-fucking-nation dirty if they came to game 6 and the spurs somehow won. "omg! did you see st. theresa put her hands together at 00;10;25;42 of the 4th period [insert mandatory youtube clip zoomed into hands]? she was praying for the spurs! BITCH!"

[Drex]

the wally flying kick is pretty scary, and i think he should have been suspended for one game for that - even though it was by no means 'dirty' or pre-meditated imo.

By no means dirty or premeditated? Do you jump with your feet aiming at people faces? It was so obvious man, I can understand where are you coming from, I consider (maybe a couple years ago) myself a tough defender, and I remember only once that a player shooted and then fell down on my foot. If you're going to contest the shot with a hand to the face and you're close to the offensive player, it could happen, but you also have control of yourself, and if a 14 year old boy can be coordinated enough to move their feet and stop another player from being hurt, how a professional basketball player can't? "Accidents" like kicking people repeatedly don't happen very often, Bowen knows what he's doing, he's just very good at hiding it.

'dirty' is simply public propaganda imo, a defense mechanism if you will, against straight up losing. its an excuse, plain and simple. suns fans would probably call the dalhi lama or st. theresa's reincar-fucking-nation dirty if they came to game 6 and the spurs somehow won. "omg! did you see st. theresa put her hands together at 00;10;25;42 of the 4th period [insert mandatory youtube clip zoomed into hands]? she was praying for the spurs! BITCH!"

Every team whines, even the Spurs had those 0.4 videos. "omg! the cl0ck started late!!11!@!@!"

[magius]

By no means dirty or premeditated? Do you jump with your feet aiming at people faces? It was so obvious man, I can understand where are you coming from, I consider (maybe a couple years ago) myself a tough defender, and I remember only once that a player shooted and then fell down on my foot. If you're going to contest the shot with a hand to the face and you're close to the offensive player, it could happen, but you also have control of yourself, and if a 14 year old boy can be coordinated enough to move their feet and stop another player from being hurt, how a professional basketball player can't? "Accidents" like kicking people repeatedly don't happen very often, Bowen knows what he's doing, he's just very good at hiding it.

maybe it was obvious to you, but it wasn't to me. i think it was a dangerous play, and he deserved a suspension, but i think he overjumped to contest the shot, and then in the air, just didn't know what to do.

do you play 82 games plus playoff games, at pro intensity year after year? 30+ mpg? are you 6'7, 200? a 14 year old can also shoot free throws at 80% up, why can't shaq?

this is what i mean people say that they know that bowen 'knows what he's doing.' how do you know what he's doing? i'd be much more inclined to believe the quotes of nba executives (quoted in a previous post), that say otherwise. i'd be much more convinced by the fact that not one sun has backed up amare.

every team whines, but not with this much coverage. and even worse it downplays the obvious quality of basketball. whine about the officials, go ahead, its a standard. but calling the other team 'dirty'? a little underhanded, akin to someone shouting "you're a poopy mouth!"

[Drex]

do you play 82 games plus playoff games, at pro intensity year after year? 30+ mpg? are you 6'7, 200? a 14 year old can also shoot free throws at 80% up, why can't shaq?

We're not talking about something like shooting, that takes a lot of practice. Besides, the ball in Shaq's hands looks like a grape. We're talking about knowing what to do with your legs. You know were your foot is going to be in the next play. He's a world class athlete, not some regular guy walking down the street. You can tell that he's doing it on purpose by watching the videos. You just don't put your foot forward when somebody is already coming back down from a layup or dunk, you don't knee somebody in the groin trying to batlle for position, same as you don't wave your arms like a retard trying to get the foul. Again, they're professional basketball players, and suddenly they become "stupid" on one play and don't know what to do in that moment? Those are the things that downplay the quality of basketball, because that led to two of the best Suns players and one of the best role players of all time to be suspended and ruined what could've been a really great series.

[magius]

No. I can't tell. apparently you can tell.

you don't think footwork takes a lot of practice?

you're saying just because a 14 year old (according to you, i don't agree) knows where his feet are going to be, etc., etc. all the time a pro should be able to do so too. I'm saying by that logic if a 14 year old can shoot free throws at 80% a pro should be able to as well. Its the same logic, and obviously invalid, you only choose to apply it when it benefits your point of view. shaq's relatively humungous hands has nothing to do with it, its like me saying bowen has big feet.

the knee to the groin was accidental, one can even say nash moved forward more than he had to in order to draw a foul, but thats beside the point. bowen apologized, nash accepted. if the guy who actually got hit in the groin can accept an apology, there must be something to it not being intentional, yes? nash isn't going around pointing at his groin every time he sees bowen, maybe fans shouldn't either.

don't 'wave your arms like a retard?' i guess the entire nba is dirty then. you think bowen is the only one who 'waves his arms like a retard'? give me a break. or when nash, marion and amare do it are they just waving to the crowd?

bowen didn't lead to amare and diaws suspensions. amare and diaw led to amare and diaw's suspensions. stay on the bench. nobody in utah came off the bench when baron davis knocked fisher down, nobody in utah came off the bench on jrich's closeline. what makes phoenix deserve preferential treatment?

what ruins the quality of basketball is when people bitch and make excuses about insignificant little things that aren't even, without doubt, there, rather than focus on the quality of basketball.

[Drex]

No. I can't tell. apparently you can tell.

It's just as easy as watching the plays. It's not that hard to tell, even if you're the biggest Spurs fan in the world, what Bowen has done.

you don't think footwork takes a lot of practice?

you're saying just because a 14 year old (according to you, i don't agree) knows where his feet are going to be, etc., etc. all the time a pro should be able to do so too. I'm saying by that logic if a 14 year old can shoot free throws at 80% a pro should be able to as well. Its the same logic, and obviously invalid, you only choose to apply it when it benefits your point of view.

Not really, you're not getting the point. If somebody's jumping, you can tell where he's going to land. He's in the air, you know your feet are going to be near the space that the shooting player is going to land, how difficult is to move your foot back so that you won't cause an injury?

shaq's relatively humungous hands has nothing to do with it, its like me saying bowen has big feet.

the knee to the groin was accidental, one can even say nash moved forward more than he had to in order to draw a foul, but thats beside the point. bowen apologized, nash accepted. if the guy who actually got hit in the groin can accept an apology, there must be something to it not being intentional, yes? nash isn't going around pointing at his groin every time he sees bowen, maybe fans shouldn't either.

That's got nothing to do with it, maybe Nash just wanted to keep playing and not be a bitch like most players who whine a lot.

don't 'wave your arms like a retard?' i guess the entire nba is dirty then. you think bowen is the only one who 'waves his arms like a retard'? give me a break. or when nash, marion and amare do it are they just waving to the crowd?

I was just taking a shot at Kobe, like when people were saying that his fouls on Manu & Jaric were not intentional, and were "natural basketball moves".

bowen didn't lead to amare and diaws suspensions. amare and diaw led to amare and diaw's suspensions. stay on the bench. nobody in utah came off the bench when baron davis knocked fisher down, nobody in utah came off the bench on jrich's closeline. what makes phoenix deserve preferential treatment?

Hey, I don't agree with the suspensions, but a rule is a rule, sadly. I'm not blaming Bowen for that, I'm not sure why you're bringing that up now.

what ruins the quality of basketball is when people bitch and make excuses about insignificant little things that aren't even, without doubt, there, rather than focus on the quality of basketball.

Agree on the first part, but you can't deny that there are some things that Bowen does that are beyond great defense and just crowding the opposing player on jumpshots and layups. If he were grabbing the jersey, pushing, etc, then it wouldn't be such a big deal.

[---]

shaq's relatively humungous hands has nothing to do with it

Try shooting free throws with a ball small enough so your hands would be the same as Shaq's compared to the NBA ball. It is very hard to shoot.

you're saying just because a 14 year old (according to you, i don't agree) knows where his feet are going to be, etc., etc. all the time a pro should be able to do so too. I'm saying by that logic if a 14 year old can shoot free throws at 80% a pro should be able to as well. Its the same logic, and obviously invalid, you only choose to apply it when it benefits your point of view.

It's human nature to know where your feet are going. Women don't spit out Steve Nash's and Chauncey Billups' non stop you know. Free throws aren't human nature, having control over your limbs are.

the knee to the groin was accidental, one can even say nash moved forward more than he had to in order to draw a foul, but thats beside the point.

Please stop, this is where it really shows you didn't watch the video. I just made a gif of the video to show you frame by frame:



You can clearly see that Nash does not move into him during the kick, because Nash stops moving and sets his feet at the same time Bowen still hasn't made his pivot. Now one thing that really strikes me about this move. That move is made to give you space. Yet, when you do that, you are supposed to turn to the side and then but your foot in the same place as Bowen did, because when you turn your body your protect the ball and lessen any chance of something like this happening and possibly picking up and offensive foul.

Yet Bowen put his foot while his body was front on with Nash. How will he protect the ball? The move makes no sense.

bowen apologized, nash accepted. if the guy who actually got hit in the groin can accept an apology, there must be something to it not being intentional, yes?

Are you saying that if someone accepts an apology, they accept the act wasn't intentional? Since when did acceptign an apology also mean you believe the persons action were unintentional? There may be something unintentional in it, and that was probably he didn't intend on picking up an offensive foul. He didn't even leave his foot on the floor after the move to "make space", he quickly retracted it but didn't look to move. It was truly a "kick" movement.

bowen didn't lead to amare and diaws suspensions. amare and diaw led to amare and diaw's suspensions. stay on the bench. nobody in utah came off the bench when baron davis knocked fisher down, nobody in utah came off the bench on jrich's closeline. what makes phoenix deserve preferential treatment?

I agree here, Diaw and Stoudemire didn't need to get off the bench. I personally don't like the rule becuase its human nature to react. Amare and Diaw forgot about the rule and made a mistake.

what ruins the quality of basketball is when people bitch and make excuses about insignificant little things that aren't even, without doubt, there, rather than focus on the quality of basketball.

I agree that alot of this Bowen stuff isn't that big a deal. I will, however, have a huge problem with Bowen when someone gets seriously hurt.

[magius]

i watched the video before you made the gif, i didn't and don't think it is, without a doubt, intentional. if you do, that is fine. i also dont think its a big deal, but it seems to be one of the supposed 'proofs' that have been presented.

Try shooting free throws with a ball small enough so your hands would be the same as Shaq's compared to the NBA ball. It is very hard to shoot.

It's human nature to know where your feet are going. Women don't spit out Steve Nash's and Chauncey Billups' non stop you know. Free throws aren't human nature, having control over your limbs are.

women don't spit out players with tim duncan or shaq's footwork either. foot speed and lateral movement at the nba level are hardly 'human nature.'

i'm not saying shooting free throws isn't hard. and by the way, shooting free throws IS having control over your limbs.

Are you saying that if someone accepts an apology, they accept the act wasn't intentional? Since when did acceptign an apology also mean you believe the persons action were unintentional? There may be something unintentional in it, and that was probably he didn't intend on picking up an offensive foul. He didn't even leave his foot on the floor after the move to "make space", he quickly retracted it but didn't look to move. It was truly a "kick" movement.

his apology wasn't "i'm sorry for kicking you in the groin," his apology, was "you know i didn't mean that." and in that case, yes to your first question.

I agree that alot of this Bowen stuff isn't that big a deal. I will, however, have a huge problem with Bowen when someone gets seriously hurt.

thats all i'm looking for.

Hey, I don't agree with the suspensions, but a rule is a rule, sadly. I'm not blaming Bowen for that, I'm not sure why you're bringing that up now.

sorry must've gotten it mixed up from somewhere else.

Agree on the first part, but you can't deny that there are some things that Bowen does that are beyond great defense and just crowding the opposing player on jumpshots and layups. If he were grabbing the jersey, pushing, etc, then it wouldn't be such a big deal.

yes, but i don't think they are intentional.

[---]

women don't spit out players with tim duncan or shaq's footwork either. foot speed and lateral movement at the nba level are hardly 'human nature.'

Ummm... how did you get to this? I said having control over your limbs is natural. Anyone can have good enough control over there legs that they can move them out of the way of a landing player to avoid injury. It's natural for a human to do something so simple, complex footwork is a whole other matter, a very hard skill to master.

i'm not saying shooting free throws isn't hard. and by the way, shooting free throws IS having control over your limbs.

Yes, its having control over your limbs, but as I said about footwork, its a skill that takes time and practice to master. Being able to do something as simple as moves your legs out the way of a falling player (on multiple occasions) isn't a skill you need to masture. It's something all humans capable of moving their legs can do.

I don't see how you can compare something as simple being able to get out the way to complex footwork skills possesed by only a handful of players or free throw shooting at 80% which is known as "skilled" in the NBA.

Not everyone has amazing footwork or great free throw shooting skills. Everyone can prevent an injury in those situations that Bowen was in by moving their foot out the way.

Anyway, even after all this, I stil don't hate Bowen. I dislike him for what he has done but I still have trememndous respect for his defensive capabilities. However, whe he does eventually really hurt someone, he's gotta go.

The NBA needs to let Bowen know he can't be doing this or he will continue to do so and eventually cause an injury. Imagine if Greg Oden in his first game came down on Bowen while shooting and done to his ankle what Grant Hill did? All that promise down the drain. Prevention is the best cure.

[Andrew]

i think the problem with bowen isn't that he's deliberately undercutting. i think its just the nature of his defense to crowd as much as possible to interfere with the jumpshot. he closes in aggressively and sometimes his momentum can push him further than perhaps he intended. can this be dangerous? perhaps. but how do you stop players from doing that which can also be construed as good hard nosed defense? do you suspend them and make the nba softer than it already is? do you foul them to same effect? either way i wouldn't call it 'dirty.'

Is undercutting a player really defending the jumpshot though? Once a player is airborne the defender usually challenges the shot by jumping up to put a hand in face. I agree that it's difficult to police because tough defense usually has the potential for a lot of contact and a lot of contact means there's potential for an accident to happen and possibly an injury. A player's momentum probably does contribute to that and again, it's difficult to make that call but that's why the NBA reviews these incidents on tape because if there is any unacceptable behaviour they can take appropriate analysis. Does that lead to overanalysis? Perhaps, but snap decisions that are made without any kind of review aren't exactly fair either.

that said i wouldn't mind if bowen is suspended in the future (which i fear is bound to occur; sadly, in event, it will probably be due to public pressure than the actual occurence) i would mind if he is suspended for being' dirty.' for i think that just isn't the case, as you said, i don't think his actions are pre-meditated or intentional at all.

I must concede I can't sit here and say without question that his actions are intentional or premeditated, however considering it's not a couple of isolated incidents we're talking about I can't help but think there's something more to the situation. Even if the intent is not to injure the opposing player - which would be unquestionably dirty, in my view - the tactics themselves could still be considered dangerous and that's something the NBA should take into account because while tough defense should be encouraged, methods that could result in injury should not.

Kobe Bryant's suspension is a good example. I think it's safe to say it wasn't his intention to hurt his opponents but swinging his arm to the side was intentional and the Lakers' claim that it's his regular shooting form based on 50 video clips is laughable because Kobe shot the ball close to 2000 times this season and didn't swing out like that every single time. In any event, the result was he caught an opponent in the face and the league's stance on the matter was that whether or not there was intent to injure - which I don't think there was - it was a dangerous tactic and they would not tolerate it.

The same could be said of the incidents involving Bowen which is why it's so strange the league hasn't done anything about it. Right or wrong, they usually crack down on things like that. The fact that they haven't leads to the conspiracy talk, though as I said before I don't buy into any of that.

But as I also said in my last post, how many times can a player be given the benefit of the doubt? Can you put down the undercutting to Bowen's momentum every time, or is there something else going on in the time where it's led to someone getting injured?

i'm not saying that my views are unquestionable, only that the argument is debatable. it is not straight cut out and out he is dirty for a fact, or that he should be suspended, or 'that was absolutely this' as it seems the topic had been implying. the videos, the evidence, have not been without doubt, and that is why he hasn't been suspended.

I agree, but again it's a bit puzzling considering few of these incidents no matter who's involved are completely without doubt, yet the NBA normally hands out a suspension.

'dirty' is simply public propaganda imo, a defense mechanism if you will, against straight up losing. its an excuse, plain and simple. suns fans would probably call the dalhi lama or st. theresa's reincar-fucking-nation dirty if they came to game 6 and the spurs somehow won. "omg! did you see st. theresa put her hands together at 00;10;25;42 of the 4th period [insert mandatory youtube clip zoomed into hands]? she was praying for the spurs! BITCH!"

I agree to a certain extent, it's become popular to blame the referees for losses in recent times. I mean, I've even received emails from people demanding I do something about the officiating which is odd considering I just run a fansite about a video game based on the NBA, but in any event I think it's safe to say a lot of fans are down on the officials these days. At the end of the day it's easier to say "the officials took it from us" or "the other team is dirty" than "we didn't get the job done" and to that end people do take it a long way. But I'd say that in some cases the "dirty" label is appropriate. A couple of Kevin Willis elbows to Scott Williams back in the day come to mind.

Anyway, even after all this, I stil don't hate Bowen. I dislike him for what he has done but I still have trememndous respect for his defensive capabilities. However, whe he does eventually really hurt someone, he's gotta go.

The NBA needs to let Bowen know he can't be doing this or he will continue to do so and eventually cause an injury. Imagine if Greg Oden in his first game came down on Bowen while shooting and done to his ankle what Grant Hill did? All that promise down the drain. Prevention is the best cure.

I'd agree with that. I don't exactly approve of his tactics and find some of the incidents very questionable as to whether or not they were on the level but he is an excellent defender toiling in an era where there are a lot of soft fouls. At the same time, they should reinforce the fact that a line will be drawn at some point and if that line is crossed action will be taken, just as they have done with other players including Kobe earlier this season. I think that's something they should have done already but moving forward I would hope they'll do that if necessary.

If they can warn players to settle down and cut out the complaining because they'll (arbitrarily) enforce a Zero Tolerance policy or suspend one of the league's top players because they're concerned about a tactic that's potentially dangerous and has caused harm to a couple of players, they can pull one of the league's top defenders aside and explain that a line will be drawn when it comes to certain defensive methods.

[Metsis]

This Bowen thing... It's plain wrong... The groin "footage" on this thread isn't at all conclusive or anything of the sort. It shows that Nash got too close, but still the fact that only the leg hits the man is something that is another factor as well... If Bowen didn't have to hit the man at all and he knew he was there, he could have avoided hitting Nash completely on the play too... If he couldn't have avoided hitting Nash, he would have hit him with his arms, shoulders, body etc.

The kick on Ray Allen was a sucker punch... There is no doubt about that.. It wasn't like Ray was sitting on Bowen (he couldn't have kicked him, if Ray was), but it was a deliberate move in Bowen's behalf... The kick on Amare was just as obvious too... Pure with intent and done on purpose... I've seen enough basketball plays and done enough moves on the court to know that sometimes people land on other persons legs... That's just a part of the game and is bound to happen at some point as ugly as it is... But kicking people in the legs, back and HEAD??? is not something I've ever seen in a game live and I've seen some pretty nasty tricks. I've played in one official game where I thought afterwards that it was practically a miracle that no one got really hurt in that game... There were some pretty nasty hits, but that's not basket ball...

But when it comes to Bowen... He is getting older... He is starting to lose some of that quickness he needs to be the defender he is known to be... And he basically doesn't want to give up his image, since that would pretty much mean the end of his NBA career at least... But he is in the eye of the storm right now... And its a good thing in my mind... If he keeps on resorting to these kinds of "tricks" he will be called upon his actions to face the jury...

And what comes to isolated incidents and games played... If this was an isolated incident that happened once or twice or over a decade it would be ok... But these things seem to be piling up in increasing number and I don't want to see Bowen end a career of any player because he can't "do it" any more... Next season he could en up doing this same thing for Durant and practically end his career by pulling a dirty trick and really hurting him... Or Kobe, LeBron, Wade, T-Mac etc. etc. The man is dangerous if he doesn't keep it clean... And if his body is failing him, as I suspect, then he should face the music and not try to hold onto the fact that he once was an excellent defensive player by all means neccesary...

I don't have much respect for the team or the player... It doesn't matter who you kick in the back, or leg or head or who you knee groin...