First Set Of Returns For All Star Game

Im not hating im speaking the truth, Mcgrady doesnt deserve to be in the game, along with many others who are in that list like Shane Battier and Chris Webber.

Of course T-Mac cares. About the league, his team, his fans and game.

I wasnt saying he doesnt care what i ment is if he didnt speaking hypothetically your saying he could still play in the all-star game because his name is Tracy McGrady. Yeah maybe people wanna see him play in the game but i know i want to see people who deserve to be there not someone whos there on a reputation which is now gone.

Last edited by CMJ3 on Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Im not hating im speaking the truth, Mcgrady doesnt deserve to be in the game, along with many others who are in that list like Shane Battier and Chris Webber.

Why the hell not if there are fans wanting to see them play? It is not a -who's the highest scoring player contest- that you would apparently like it to be. It's popularity contest! Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis are extremely popular actors. That doesn't mean they win Oscars out of thin air.

Another great example is Michael Jordan case during Wizard era. He was a definite all-star caliber player, most famous basketball player of all time. But he was merely an aging veteran with Wizards, even though he scored 52 in one game, overall he was not all-star worthy stats wise.

But stats don't matter. Fame does. People want to see their favorite players play, and vote for their favorite players, no matter how biased that may be. Why? Because it is not about who is better, it is about who fans would like to see. That is why Michael played, what, you're telling me he did not belong in all-star team?

Because if you say T-Mac doesn't, then Jordan did not, since the precedent is the same. Which, is weird.

Last edited by Chris_23 on Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I know its a popularity contest but the whole debate here was that these Yao Ming followers (whole of China) are voting in players simply because they are on Yao's team, if it wasnt for those supporters i would imagine McGrady wouldnt be so high because true NBA fans know he is in terrible form and doesnt seem worthy of an all-star appearance.

So in fact the allstar ballot is entirely based on Yao Ming and Houston Rockets fanboys getting to see who they want in the allstar game because they outnumber the fanbase of other players by a huge margin.

Let me ask you Chris_23 if an Estonian player was in the NBA of course your going to vote for him even if he does suck but would you vote for the rest of the players on his team simply because they play with your country's player? If so then i can see which side you support and its pointless arguing.

Because if you say T-Mac doesn't, then Jordan did not, since the precedent is the same. Which, is weird.

Tracy McGrady is no Michael Jordan no matter how famous he is. Michael Jordan deserves to play in every all-star match he is the greatest player to ever live who cares about fame, he would of made it anyway. The funny thing is that Jordan was voted in by the Coaches and Vince Carter was the starter and he gave it up to Jordan for one last time so its a totally different incident.

Last edited by CMJ3 on Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This has been the case in the history of all star contest! Look at Lakers in 98! Look at Bulls in mid 90's! Did you know that BJ Armstrong was an all-star? He wasn't even half of what T-Mac currently is (ignoring the injury) Bulls had many fans, voted for their favorite players, biased towards their favorite team. So what? Why should they not? Player is supported by so many fans he deserves the spot! So now that chinese do it it is somehow wrong?

Why?

How come can it be wrong if so many NBA fans support the player and want to see him play? That's what all-star game is about. And Yao has alot of fans outside China as well, this was evident during last years all-star balloting regional statistics. T-Mac is an all-star, even if his perfomance is not amongst those top of the league. He is an all-star because he has so many fans and supporters and people want him to play there. I'm no fan of him by a long shot, but I consider him, among with Kobe, Carter, LeBron, Wade, Shaq as those all-star personas. They are sort of unique, more flash type personas, different in ways, characteristic. Sure, Pierce, Johnson, Carmelo etc are probably better than half of those players, but so what? If fans prefer seeing others then that's the way it is.

Let me ask you Chris_23 if an Estonian player was in the NBA of course your going to vote for him even if he does suck but would you vote for the rest of the players on his team simply because they play with your country's player?

No of course not. I can't believe you even asked something as stupid as this. Unless the estonian player (aka the late 90's Dallas Maverick Martin Muursepp who scored 24 against Clippers) is actually all-star worthy (doing 24ppg constantly) then of course I would. But if he is not, then obviously not.

But obviously international players get their home country votes. So what? There's never so many of them as to give someone an unworthy position.

Anyways, I got tired of this talking-to-the-wall discussion, enjoy your day CMJ

OK let me get this straight you think because they have fans and supporters they are an All-star. You obviously dont know what an All-star title is to an NBA player.

I think i might rally up a fanbase then join the NBA and i will become an All-star w00t!

That is why Michael played, what, you're telling me he did not belong in all-star team?

even though he scored 52 in one game, overall he was not all-star worthy stats wise.

He was a definite all-star caliber player, most famous basketball player of all time

Hold up. What exactly are you trying to say here?

What I'm pissed about is that the All Star Game invites should be handed out to those deserving, not Shane Battier, not Chris Webber, not Steve Francis, not Stephon Marbury, etc.

Guys like Zach Randolph (26/10) should be there. I'm as big a T-Mac fan as anyone, but he does not deserve to be there. Yes its a popularity contest and that's what I don't like. All Star Game appearances help define a players legacy. They show how good they were back in their day. Do you not think people are amazed by Shaq being in oh-so-many all star games and that it helps define his greatness?

When Shane fucking Battier begins making All Star Games because he plays on Yao Mings team, those All Star Game appearances lose their worth.

In my opinion, the coaches, GMs, whatever should decide who goes. Why the fuck is everyone voting for all the Rockets players anyway? Why not pull out a tape of a Rockets game and jack off over that?

EDIT:



F | Shawn Marion
Phoenix Suns
PPG 20.2 | RPG 9.6 | APG 2.0 | SPG 2.1 | BPG 1.7

ASG 07 Votes: 130,710



F | Carlos Boozer
Utah Jazz
PPG 22.6 | RPG 12.3 | APG 3.2 | SPG 0.7 | BPG 0.5

ASG 07 Votes: 113,289



F | Zach Randolph
Portland TrailBlazers
PPG 25.3 | RPG 10.2 | APG 1.5 | SPG 0.7 | BPG 0.3

ASG 07 Votes: Unknown, less than 100,192



F | Shane Battier
Houston Rockets
PPG 8.5 | RPG 4.0 | APG 2.7 | SPG 1.1 | BPG 0.9

ASG 07 Votes: 265,340


Hooray for All Star Voting!

Last edited by --- on Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OK let me get this straight you think because they have fans and supporters they are an All-star. You obviously dont know what an All-star title is to an NBA player.

I think i might rally up a fanbase then join the NBA and i will become an All-star w00t!

lol, yes I obviously don't know what an All-star title is to an NBA player. But, thankfully, if I don't know, then you obviously do not know either. And if you think we -must know what an all-star title is to an NBA player- to conduct this discussion, then obviously we should not discuss this at all.


Anyways, while from the one hand I also dislike that it's a popularity contest, from the other hand it is good this way. You see the most popular players there. You see players majority of the fans want to see, instead of players minority of fans want to see.

And how do you really determine who would be 'worthy'? It is not a best-players contest, it is an all-star. I doubt it will ever change, because popularity contests tend to be just that. Popular. And what's more, there will ALWAYS be fans who don't like it.

Have entire contest based on fan-vote? People would scream Yao gets too many votes for some reason.

Have entire contest based on coach-vote and/or analyst vote? People would scream Nash does not deserve all those votes.

Have entire contest based on stats? People would scream Garnett doesn't deserve all those votes.

Nobody will ever be really happy. But it won't change anyway, it's a popularity contest and in such an environment, which is majority based, people will always favor this over those minor, small amount of fans who think the system should be different just because an aging or injured ex-all-star gets votes for current competition or otherwise.

That's really all there is to it.

Last edited by Chris_23 on Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thankyou Flite_23 at least you have some sense on the Allstar game. Let me put this too you Chris_23 seeing as it is a popularity contest what would you think if the whole Houston Rockets squad got voted in as the West Team and they played the Best of the East Allstars. Do you think that that game would be fun to watch and would be a good game based on who the fans voted in????

lol, yes I obviously don't know what an All-star title is to an NBA player. But, thankfully, if I don't know, then you obviously do not know either. And if you think we -must know what an all-star title is to an NBA player- to conduct this discussion, then obviously we should not discuss this at all.

So when a commentator says to a player hes an all-star caliber player do you really think they say that because hes famous?? And as i said before for an NBA player to get voted into the allstar game then its an honour to them not just because they have fans, but because they were voted in by members of the league and people who actually know basketball and it gives them some recognition for how they have played during that season. Once you have been classed as an all-star you should be classed as an elite player during that season, not just because you have fans.


And i always thought it was

Eastern All Stars - Best of the East
Western All Stars - Best of the West

Not

Eastern All Stars - Most popular in the East
Western All Stars - Most popular in the West.

Last edited by CMJ3 on Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thankyou Flite_23 at least you have some sense on the Allstar game. Let me put this too you Chris_23 seeing as it is a popularity contest what would you think if the whole Houston Rockets squad got voted in as the West Team and they played the Best of the East Allstars. Do you think that that game would be fun to watch and would be a good game based on who the fans voted in????

When will you start participating in discussions and presenting arguements that actually exist and are fact based, not what-if's? Bitter Carmelo fans surprise me more every day it seems.

I'll give up. Believe what you want, just know that T-Mac will be probably in starting lineup unless injury takes him out, and strong majority of NBA fanbase will approve and the show will not be any less spectacular because of it.

Cheers and nite nite

Well seeing as you are hooked on the All star game should be based on popularity im presenting you with scenarios in which the game would result based on popularity.

Me being a Carmelo fan has nothing to do with this, i know your a hater anyway but it doesnt bother me when i see him averaging 31.0 ppg 5.6rpg and 4.1apg and he proves you stupid haters wrong.

I'm Carmelo hater? lol, no, I am not. I have no hate towards any player in the league and am usually symphathetic towards players who are in the receiving end of such. In fact I've watched every Carmelo game this season I've had the chance through TVU just because he's the highest scoring player in the league (I tend to be fan of individual achievements).

Yet again you act like a brat CMJ though, why call me a hater when I have never ever displayed any discontent towards Anthony? Why even derail this topic this way CMJ? You never ever base your opinions and arguements on facts - at all?

It's far from derailed. He's debating the way the All Star Game is set up. Heres the bottom line:

The All Star game should not be a popularity contest.

The All Star game should be played by those that deserve it.

Shane Battier should not be an All Star simply because he plays on Yao Mings team.

I cant be bothered with this argument ive seen many Melo haters before and you seem like one to me but thats just my thought and it has nothing to do with this debate. So all in all Chris_23 i ask you one simple question and then im finished.

Would you like the allstar game to be based on popularity or based on a players performance during the season which is voted by the members of the league??

From what I know, Battier is FAR from making the all-star team, what's your point Flite_23?

All star game should not be a popularity contest and it should be played by those that deserve it. Yes. Well, tell me how do you determine who deserves it?

Fans are one way of determining who deserves it. NBA is not a statistics league. Fans are the blood of the league, all-star game is the only event fan feedback is taken highly and directly into account. Find a way better than the current system for all-stars game, propose it to Stern and see what he thinks.

Fact remains that very strong majority of NBA fans prefer the all-stars game the way it is. They love having the chance to vote, they love seeing their favorite players play even if they don't play their best ball of all time.

As you both are epic Anthony fans, let me ask you this, LeBron and Anthony. Anthony has been alot more effective this year compared to floppy James. Does that mean Anthony should be considered more of an all-star than LeBron James, while James has much larger fanbase?

It's an all-star game, not all-best game. Star does not necessarily mean -best-. How hard is that to understand? You get all-best teams at the end of the year. Maybe Stern will amuse fans and create an all-best weekend, but sadly, that's not what all-stars game is about.

Would you like the allstar game to be based on popularity or based on a players performance during the season which is voted by the members of the league??

Define 'members of the league'?

I talked about it already. If analysts or coaches would vote the players, Nash would be definite number 1. Fans would moan. So?

Or you mean players of teams? I'd love that, but I don't see how this would do anything much differently other than become another issue of potential race, with european players getting less votes just because NBA is filled with american highfliers and similar players tend to like similar things.

There is no perfect system. Fact is that current all star starters would 99.5% of the time get there even with player/coach vote. While T-Mac probably would not get coach vote, he would get player vote. Or are you saying players would not vote T-Mac in? lol, yes, they would. Not a fact, but I'm very sure they would.

What are you on about?? Last time i checked All star was a high ranking in any sport. As i stated previously it was originally the BEST of the East and the BEST of the West.

As you both are epic Anthony fans, let me ask you this, LeBron and Anthony. Anthony has been alot more effective this year compared to floppy James. Does that mean Anthony should be considered more of an all-star than LeBron James, while James has much larger fanbase?

At the moment i would consider them to be spot on even, both teams have similar records and Both players are playing quite well, to say James has been floppy is a bit extreme.

NBA is not a statistics league.

So why the hell did T-mac say a couple years back that he was purely playing for stats?? Why is the MVP based on stats?? Why is the NBA championship based on the stats of how many games are won??

Fact remains that very strong majority of NBA fans prefer the all-stars game the way it is.

Well it seems your the only one in this thread....are you saying people in here are not part of the strong majority of NBA fans when the whole site is dedicated to NBA live a game based on the NBA??


A better current system would be to let the GMs decide on who are ALL-STARS this year. Its not like all the players are gonna be crap and not entertaining, Yao would still make it etc. But most of those players in those rankings wouldnt which is fair enough.

Yes. Well, tell me how do you determine who deserves it?

Based on stats and team performance much like they do the MVP.

Actually he's right behind Melo at the 5th spot (they select 4 forwards to go to the ASG). So yeah, he's right there. It's not like he got 1 vote and I'm complaining, he's actually a contender.

How about Anthony actually takes his team to the playoffs and actually do something? LOL.

What does that have to do with the All Star game which is based on SEASON performance, you could ask the same about KG couldnt you??

And i always thought it was

Eastern All Stars - Best of the East
Western All Stars - Best of the West

Not

Eastern All Stars - Most popular in the East
Western All Stars - Most popular in the West.

Unfortunately, that is only true in terms of selecting the reserves. Though I am happy Chris Bosh is second in the East in voting for East Forwards (though Jermaine O'Neal isn't too far behind, while Lebron has more than twice the amount of votes Bosh has).

Small point, but this year, Carter is lacking in votes, while instead, this is the year hes looked as close to in his premier years in Toronto, instead of recent injury-riddled years (not neccesarily injury prone in NJ, but seems like this is his best season after going to NJ, talking about more towards his final 2 years or so in Toronto; full of injuries yet one of the tops in getting votes).

I know that the best of the west etc isnt shown in the starters but what i ment is that how it should be, the best players in that conference at that position for the Season so far which is decided by League Gms and Coaches. If that were to be put into context then the lineups would look something like this.

West
C - Yao Ming
PF - Carlos Boozer or Dirk Nowitzki
SF - Carmelo Anthony
SG - Kobe Bryant
PG - Steve Nash

East
C - Dwight Howard
PF - Chris Bosh or Emeka Okafor
SF - Lebron James
SG - Joe Johnson
PG - Jason Kidd

Why dont the coaches and owners or whoever choose the players. I mean come on Shane Battier over Boozer? Well who else are a billion chinese going to vote for other than Yao's teammates?

What's with the Emeka Okafor? In fact, western PF should be Jermaine O'Neal who has either as good or better stats than Bosh or Okafor (except rebounds in Bosh' case), and his team is doing alot better? Or Joe Johnson? Forgetting Dwyane Wade? Nearly as many points and rebounds, alot more assists and better team perfomance? I mean, at least according your guidelines of season and team perfomance.

This actually shows how hard it is to determine who is more worthy for an all-star team spot. Which is why it's great that it's 50-50. Half of the team of fan votes, another half from coach votes. Half from popularity, half from skill. Most mixed in-between.

Usually if a player does not get what some bitter fans call 'must have starting lineup spot' that's reserved for the most popular players, coaches get the player the spot in the team one way or another, as long as he's worth it. I'm sure it'll be the same way this year.

In fact, western PF should be Jermaine O'Neal who has either as good or better stats than Bosh or Okafor (except rebounds in Bosh' case),

What does Bosh and Okafors stats have to do with Jermaine? They are from different conferences.

This actually shows how hard it is to determine who is more worthy for an all-star team spot. Which is why it's great that it's 50-50. Half of the team of fan votes, another half from coach votes. Half from popularity, half from skill. Most mixed in-between.

I would rather something like vote for one player at each position. That way 9 of the 12 left over spots would be decided by someone who has a brain capable of understanding what players deserve to be All Stars.

it's probably been mentioned, but I think T-Mac and Battier are obviously are benefitting from being Yao's teammates. of course here comes the billion people in China voting, and theyt vote for his teammates because they don't really know anyone else in the league (let alone smaller market players like Marion)
Steve Francis can tell you it worked out for him a few years ago.

plus, it's going to be stacked in the west... at the forwards you got KG & TD with Dirk off the bench and so you got Lamar, Marion & Boozer fighting for the last 3 spots (since the West isn't so deep with Guards). Lamar's injury definitely hurt his chances to get in. Kobe & Tmac will win the start and I tihnk Nash & Paul will be voted as reserves, assuming AI doesn't get traded to GS.

Why the hell not if there are fans wanting to see them play? It is not a -who's the highest scoring player contest- that you would apparently like it to be. It's popularity contest! Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis are extremely popular actors. That doesn't mean they win Oscars out of thin air.

...But if who got the Oscars was decided by Internet voting, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise and Bruce Willis probably would get a lot of them if they were in the same movies as Jackie Chan

I tihnk Flight_23 has made some good points by now - We shouldn't question whether the ASG is a popularity contest - it obviously is - we should debate whether we like it to be a popularity contest or not.

I don't like it the way it is - my best suggestion of improvement is to let the coaches/players decide who plays.