PENNY HARDAWAY

[putodelagoa]

Jordan left the team but most of the core players of the previous championship team were still intact in that '94 Bulls team, also add Toni Kukoc. It's not like the championship team was disbanded and a completely new set of players were led by Pippen. The closest team I could think of with that similar scenario are last season's Suns with no Amare..

Same old double-standard: Pip won because he had Jordan on his side, then, the next season he pushes the powerhouse Knicks to the brink of elimination on the semis and you should thank the supporting cast of BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant and The Waiter... BJ and HG were all stars that year, in many ways thanks to Pip. Kukoc was a rookie (clutch shooting one). Pip only had a 22pt, 8rbd, 6 ast and 3stl season. No big deal.

And tell me how was Hill offense superior to Pippen's? Don't get it... Pippen was a far superior shooter, with greater range. And as for the other talents, they were pretty much equal...

It's not a bad comparison (role-wise) the Amare\ Jordan one. But we all know who makes that Phoenix team work, don't we? It's not Amare... So don't even try to compare these two guys regarding their roles on those teams.

[1CenT]

Grant Hill is amazing offensively, he had better ball handling, quicker first step, he had a better post up and face up game than Pippen..

Grant Hill coming out from Duke, he was a good playmaker, teamplayer and defender, if you watched him when he played on the magic, he was really a big help to the team, he was 10x better than francis running the team ( lol francis ) ...

I would say Pippen is definetly a better defender, he is 1 of the best, he is good offensively, but he is no way at Grant Hill's level. I don't see him any better as a playmaker as Grant Hill, they are both really good in that aspect of the game..

Grant Hill was better, but he was injured.. Grant Hill might have been 1 of the best...

On the other hand, Penny was great, but i don't think he would reach Jordan/Magic's level.. or even where Lebron and Wade is at now..

I think he is more at like the Ray Allen level, you know, the all-stars but not superstars..

Even tho during his run with the magic, he was superstar level, winning all nba first team, and having crazy publicity.. that was more of a Shaq making him better and Nike doing promotions...

Don't get me wrong, Penny's my fav player of all-time.. I just hear a lot about how he is sumwut overrated even at his prime..

[Silas]

I dont think Penny was quite on the Ray Allen level. Penny was more famous, but he wasn't better. He was a better playmaker and maybe defender but that is it. When Ray Allen was the same age as Penny, he was just as athletic and he's easily one of the top 5 shooters in the history of the NBA.

[Matt]

On the other hand, Penny was great, but i don't think he would reach Jordan/Magic's level.. or even where Lebron and Wade is at now..

I think he is more at like the Ray Allen level, you know, the all-stars but not superstars..

Even tho during his run with the magic, he was superstar level, winning all nba first team, and having crazy publicity.. that was more of a Shaq making him better and Nike doing promotions...

Don't get me wrong, Penny's my fav player of all-time.. I just hear a lot about how he is sumwut overrated even at his prime..

what? that's crazy. Before Penny left Orlando he was amazing. He was far better than LeBron or Wade are at now. And he was a superstar. When Shaq went down this guy picked up the slack and start dominating. Instead of the usual 20ppg he got his numbers to 27ppg + 7&7, whilst keeping Orlando intact in the rough East.

During his time only Payton & Stockton were better than Hardaway @ the point.

dont think Penny was quite on the Ray Allen level. Penny was more famous, but he wasn't better. He was a better playmaker and maybe defender but that is it. When Ray Allen was the same age as Penny, he was just as athletic and he's easily one of the top 5 shooters in the history of the NBA.

Penny > T-Mac > Ray Allen

[Silas]

A healthy Tmac is better than Ray, but A healthy Penny isnt better than Ray.

but thats the thing, healthy. Ray is twice as consistent as both of those guys combined.

[Metsis]

Pippen on the other hand, just played the triangle offense where he knew exactly what he was supposed to do at every second. It wasn't like he was running a half-court offense. Just an offense of three guys attacking, two guys watching. That was chicago as much as that is Lakers today. If someone like Smush Parker can have great numbers doing the triangle offense, well that doesn't do too good for Pippens credits

Yeah. He has 6 rings because he just standed right there...watching.

We all know this discussion will never end. It has been done before. "Pip had Jordan", "Pip was overrated", "He shouldn't be on the 50 best ever", etc.etc.etc...

He could play lock down defense on 4 positions on the floor, had a complete offensive game, no way in hell he didn't have some baseline moves, and his shooting range covered the 3pt line. He deserves top 3 considerations as the best sf all time, along with Bird and Dr. J.

Sure, Hill at his peak was no chump. He simply was not in the same league as this guys, and no, posting stats won't make me change my mind, as I remember Pip's MVP season in 1994, his prime, and many other accolades. Hill was more of a scorer, if you want, while Pip didn´t take over unless it was needed. But he dominated in other ways. I'm sure you might remember the game where both Jordan and Pip scored 40 points each... He was Batman, no doubt, to Jordan's Superman, but Batman is still a formidable opponent.

I don't think anyone said that Pippen wasn't the best of all time... I was just saying that the triangle offense and the fact that basically three players control the flow of the offensive game is going to give anyone great stats. Smush Parker had a great year stat wise last winter, but that was because he played the triangle offense... If you get the ball every time on offense at least once or twice, you are going to make things happen... That much is for sure...

Pippen was a great player and he was absolute powerhouse on defense, but Hill is a better offensive player... Do I think Grant Hill is better than Pippen, well no. Pippen's defense was so good and the fact that Grant Hill's fantastic career has been chopped off at the ankle section. If Hill had never hurt his ankle, he would likely be in that top-50 players of all time list.

Pippen is better than Hill, but Hill had a better offensive game than Pippen. This is what I've been trying to say all along... And this is when comparing the guys before Hill got hurt and when Pippen wasn't 56 or something...

[Matt]

Hardaway
Named to the All-NBA First Team in 1994-95 and 1995-96, and to the All-NBA Third Team in 1996-97

Allen
Named to the All-NBA Second Team in 2004-05.
Selected to All-NBA third team for 2000-01 season

Hardaway's competition for the G spot included.....John Stockton, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, Mitch Richmond, Clyde Drexler, Tim Hardaway, Reggie Miller.

Allens
AI, Kidd, Nash, Wade, Arenas, Kobe, Payton & T-Mac.