PENNY HARDAWAY

[putodelagoa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4N0PSyuZ_I

another player shattered by injuries. Grant Hill.....probably the best SF of the lates 90's behind only Pippen.

Hill was probably better than Pippen... Especially late 90's... Pippen still had Jordan by his side and that's one hell of a side kick... Hill didn't have that much help in his Detroit days...

I'm not saying that Pippen wasn't good... He was probably one of the best perimeter defenders in his prime, but Hill had a way better offensive game.

This is heresy. Pure and Simple... Of course Hill was better thant Pip in the late 90's. Pip was going downhill. Fast.
In his prime, he was 3 orders of magnitude better defender than Hill, had a smooth shot Hill could only dream about, and was a better playmaker. He also had a temper...

[Jeffx]

good song, i used to love orlando when they had Shaq and Penny. Good time, no...Great times!

I think we all thought the Shaq/Penny Orlando Magic would be the next NBA dynasty. They had the pieces, but it didn't work out.

[Wayansfan]

i think penny was one of the most determined players in the nba during his prime. I can't think of any weakneses he might have had......if you don't count injuries lol!

[[Q]]

Last time I heard about Hardaway was that he was playing in the summer league games, but he was averaging like 8 turnovers a game.... I seriously think that he's commited to coming back, but his body can't do the things it used to do.

That was just in one game though, and he also had 11 points, 9 rebounds and 9 assists. But yea, the turnovers is killing him

I remember reading during the playoffs that there was a few teams that were interested in him, including Memphis, LA Lakers, Miami and Houston.
I'd love to see him go with Memphis. If he does, then I know what team I'll be using for my Live 07 dynasty..

man I wish I got to see him play. I went there the day after Penny played.

[Matt]

had a smooth shot Hill could only dream about, and was a better playmaker

just before Hill left Detroit he had and excellent jumper, extending out to the 3. A far as playmaker goes, Hill was no chump. He played some point and his assists averaged of about 7 (?) show what he could do.

[Mayerhendrix]

just imagine if somebody like LBJ suffered a career ending injury... man the cavs would be fucked

So would the NBA as a whole, Lebron's a household name....it'd suck for the level of interest in the league.

[Fenix]

had a smooth shot Hill could only dream about, and was a better playmaker

just before Hill left Detroit he had and excellent jumper, extending out to the 3. A far as playmaker goes, Hill was no chump. He played some point and his assists averaged of about 7 (?) show what he could do.

We didn't say Hill sucked at it, it's just that Pippen was better . Apg average don't tell you a lot, Pippen was just a much better playmaker (which was his primarily role) and a overally better offensive player, not to mention his defense.

[Matt]

depends what you mean by better offensive player. Hill had more tools to his game.

[Fenix]

Such as?

[Matt]

quick off the dribble with a good cross-over, excellent mid range game, owned the baseline, post up, cath & shoot, turn-arounds, face ups. You name it, he did it.

EDIT: This thread has made me order some DVD's from Pontel

i think i got
Game 7 of Houston vs Phx in 95
Chicago vs Lakers 97
Detroit vs Washington 99 (Hill 46pnts)
Chicago v Dallas 97 i think....Jordan 40+ Rodman Rodman 20+reb
Chicago v Milwauke....same as above.

[Metsis]

Grant Hill was pretty much unstoppable while he was still in Detroit... Too bad his ankles got hurt so badly... Pippen was good, but Grant Hill was better... His offensive game was a thing of beauty and could basically do anything wihtin the three point line. The three pointer was the only thing that was missing from his arsenal. Anything else, he did great.

He was and still is a good playmaker... Hill that is... Pippen on the other hand, just played the triangle offense where he knew exactly what he was supposed to do at every second. It wasn't like he was running a half-court offense. Just an offense of three guys attacking, two guys watching. That was chicago as much as that is Lakers today. If someone like Smush Parker can have great numbers doing the triangle offense, well that doesn't do too good for Pippens credits...

[Fenix]

Yeah, MJ would be just another Jason Richardson if he didn't have the triangle. And it's not like Pippen led Jordanless Chicago and Portland to the conference finals and Hill didn't even get out of the first round - ever. Hill was great, but not that great. Every skill Matt named Pippen owned.

[Andrew]

Yeah, MJ would be just another Jason Richardson if he didn't have the triangle.

As much as the triangle offense benefited the Chicago Bulls, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration to say the least. Michael Jordan had already reached a much higher level than Jason Richardson before Phil Jackson became head coach and the triangle became Chicago's bread and butter.

[Matt]

i think he was being sarcastic on that j-rich comparison

[putodelagoa]

Pippen on the other hand, just played the triangle offense where he knew exactly what he was supposed to do at every second. It wasn't like he was running a half-court offense. Just an offense of three guys attacking, two guys watching. That was chicago as much as that is Lakers today. If someone like Smush Parker can have great numbers doing the triangle offense, well that doesn't do too good for Pippens credits

Yeah. He has 6 rings because he just standed right there...watching.

We all know this discussion will never end. It has been done before. "Pip had Jordan", "Pip was overrated", "He shouldn't be on the 50 best ever", etc.etc.etc...

He could play lock down defense on 4 positions on the floor, had a complete offensive game, no way in hell he didn't have some baseline moves, and his shooting range covered the 3pt line. He deserves top 3 considerations as the best sf all time, along with Bird and Dr. J.

Sure, Hill at his peak was no chump. He simply was not in the same league as this guys, and no, posting stats won't make me change my mind, as I remember Pip's MVP season in 1994, his prime, and many other accolades. Hill was more of a scorer, if you want, while Pip didn´t take over unless it was needed. But he dominated in other ways. I'm sure you might remember the game where both Jordan and Pip scored 40 points each... He was Batman, no doubt, to Jordan's Superman, but Batman is still a formidable opponent.

[Silas]

I saw Penny play just this past season when New York played in Seattle. Larry Brown put him in as the point guard, but he was like 0 for 5 from 3pt and 0 for 8 in the entire game. I was kind of hoping he'd score a bit, but he just missed everything he took, it was kinda sad....

That was also the game where Jamal Crawford scored like 2 pts in the first have and then came out and torched the Sonics for 35 in the 2nd, and they consequently lost, to the Knicks!

[MC Hao]

wow, i agree. this video is sad. i hope someone shows this to him and motivate him to put out one more good season to end his career.

[tempo]

hey matt, i got that chicago v dallas game off pontel as well not so long back. its pretty good.

hill was good but he wasnt in the same league defensivley as pippen was. in many ways he was better than jordan. this is indicated in his stats for the year jordan retired for the first time.

[tempo]

hey matt, i got that chicago v dallas game off pontel as well not so long back. its pretty good.

hill was good but he wasnt in the same league defensivley as pippen was. in many ways he was better than jordan. this is indicated in his stats for the year jordan retired for the first time.

[tempo]

hey matt, i got that chicago v dallas game off pontel as well not so long back. its pretty good.

hill was good but he wasnt in the same league defensivley as pippen was. in many ways he was better than jordan. this is indicated in his stats for the year jordan retired for the first time.

[Gundy]

Whoa, a triple post .

[MC Hao]

cant blame him, i was having trouble posting as well.

[Axel]

Oh no! That boosts him up to a sizeable .15 posts a day. Better spam the forums quickly so he doesnt catch you

[shadowgrin]

Penny was the bomb in his prime. Just reminiscing about how he gets past his man makes DWade look like a chump by comparison.
Trivia: T-Mac's idol is Penny.
Penny has jersey #1. T-mac has jersey #1
Penny played for Orlando. T-Mac played for Orlando
Penny's upside career ended because of an injury.
We all know where T-Mac might be possible heading with that aching back of his..

also u could probably add the fact that they just didnt keep chris webber

Why would Orlando get Webber when they already have Shaq? Same as Portland drafting MJ when they already have Drexler. It's one of those "what if" scenarios that gets no where. It's a good thought though, Shaq and Webber tearing up the paint, with Webber eventually shooting outside jumpshots (like what he does now) instead of going inside.

IMO
Defense: Pippen > Hill
Offense: Hill > Pippen

And it's not like Pippen led Jordanless Chicago and Portland to the conference finals and Hill didn't even get out of the first round - ever. Hill was great, but not that great.

Jordan left the team but most of the core players of the previous championship team were still intact in that '94 Bulls team, also add Toni Kukoc. It's not like the championship team was disbanded and a completely new set of players were led by Pippen. The closest team I could think of with that similar scenario are last season's Suns with no Amare.
The Portland team that Pippen led against the Lakers in the WCF was chock full of talent. Rasheed Wallace and Damon Stoudamire (before weed), Steve Smith was still deadly then, Brian Grant was still tough, Sabonis can still contribute significantly and they had Detlef Schrempf on the bench. It was no surprise when they went that far in the playoffs, but saying that Pippen led that Portland team w/o even acknowledging the talent that he had for support would be an overstatement of Pippen "leading" that team.
As for Grant Hill's supporting cast, the only good player he had with him for support that I could recall was Jerry Stackhouse.
Pippen's '94 Bulls supporting cast: previous championship team
Pippen's Portland supporting cast: see above
Hill's Detroit supporting cast: Jerry Stackhouse
Hill's playoff Detroit team maybe compared to KG's Wolves team that never got out of the 1st round.

[Matt]

Hill's Detroit supporting cast: Jerry Stackhouse

Actually he had Joe Dumars, who was still an All-Star during that time. Stack & Hill played for 1 1/2 season together. Detroit teams were always weak though. No front court, no depth.