The new generation of NBA players

[cyanide]

This just occurred to me:

In the space between Jordan's retirement in 1998 and LeBron's drafting into the NBA in 2003, there weren't that many players that could be considered absolute superstars, if we take the likes of Jordan, Larry and Magic into consideration.

You could argue back with players like Kobe or Amare Stoudemire, but really, those two guys are now starting to become absolute forces. Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan could be considered, but the numbers they were putting up wouldn't rival the likes of David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon. Jason Kidd was spectacular, but he pales in comparision to John Stockton.

Shaq and Iverson were probably the lone superstars at the time, but Shaq feels to me a dominant big man who can score and play defense, but the numbers attribute to his gifted body rather than physical skills and Iverson comes to me as a great scorer and competitior, but nothing more.

I think we're only now starting to see the flashes of brilliance in Wade, LeBron, Carmello, Dwight Howard, and others that could be considered true superstars. Is the level of competition significantly greater than before or did we just see a crop of good talent but no exceptional talent? Maybe it's just me, but I feel the next generation of superstars would go beyond what we've seen in the last five years.

Discuss.

[-Young Buck-]

Lebron is very gifted, and is probably the most like the superstars you are comparing this generation to. Magic, Larry, and Jordan. I feel that those 3 legend grow even bigger after they retire because all anyone shows of them are their highlights, there game winners, and talk about their championships. I dont really agree with your opinion on Shaq and Iverson. What has Carmello or Howard done? Are they really better then Shaq and Iverson? Sure Shaq is big and strong, but he cant be as great as he is base on just those two things. Earlier in his career he wasnt that big and strong. Iverson is one of the best player ever. I think you are really downplaying these players that came after Jordan, and before this new generation. I hope you have at least watched these players play earlier on in their career. I dont want you basing this topic on just because Mello, LeBron, and Wade are the most popular these days.

[cyanide]

I know Carmello and Howard haven't proved anything, but I can envision those guys to become potential superstars. In fact, those guys could amount to nothing. I just can't see LeBron or Wade declining though, especially from this point after having incredible seasons.

I may be downplaying Iverson, but that's how I feel about him. I just can't picture him among the elites.

[Matthew]

Stockton superior to Kidd? In what way? And don't just say "thats just how i see him", there must be some line of thinking that led you to the conculsion.

As for iverson, in 2001 he wassimply the best. To call him just a good (or even a great) scorer is discounting his value. He played his role often injured and led his team on one of the all time great playoff runs. The only thing that stopped him was one of the all time great teams in the 2001 lakers in the finals... but it wasnt until after game 4 did you get the feeling the series was actually over, which was another testiment to iversons greatness that season.

You say kobe is only now becoming an absolute force, but in 2001 he averaged 28.5 ppg. in 2003 he averaged 30 ppg. If that isnt a force in your books, i dont know what is. Also don't discount tmac in 2002 and 2003, he posted massive numbers. Additionally, as good and as much as i like him (he should run for president one day), David Robinson is not the player Tim Duncan was in his prime. Hakeem in my opinion is one of the top 5 centres and a top 15 player, so even someone like KG isn't compariable to him. But when you line Shaq's career upto Hakeem, then you can compare the two.

As young Buck eluded to, alot of fans are confusing the popularity of the game now with the greatness. They think just becuase Wade, Lebron and Melo are household names, that they are better then players 3 years ago. That's not true. They are about the same, and you cant sell the players of 3 or 4 years ago short like that.

[cyanide]

It's not because they're household names, but I should say that age plays a big factor. We now have more young guys posting numbers as if they're in their prime, but have yet to reach their prime. This still takes T-Mac and Kobe into account.

Maybe I'm looking at stats too much with Stockton and Kidd rather than what the players were able to bring to the team. After giving it a second thought, Kidd was superb, but during those five years, it just felt like there was a mixture of big stars, but you can't exactly pinpoint who was the unanimous best player in the game (other than Shaq).

[-Young Buck-]

Maybe you are just living in the moment, and at the moment the guys you named are the top players today. I dont know if they are worthy of being named with Magic, Jordan, and Bird, but they are some of the best in the current nba. Again the only one you named that has done anything as far as championships is Wade, and he had a little help from Shaq, who you were putting down, and alot of other very talented role players. Shaq has been to the finals with 3 different teams, and on two of them he was the main guy. Sure he is slowly declining as a player, but he is one of the best centers ever. Dont let his current play fool you into believing this is how he has always been.

[Mayerhendrix]

Maybe you are just living in the moment, and at the moment the guys you named are the top players today. I dont know if they are worthy of being named with Magic, Jordan, and Bird, but they are some of the best in the current nba. Again the only one you named that has done anything as far as championships is Wade, and he had a little help from Shaq, who you were putting down, and alot of other very talented role players. Shaq has been to the finals with 3 different teams, and on two of them he was the main guy. Sure he is slowly declining as a player, but he is one of the best centers ever. Dont let his current play fool you into believing this is how he has always been.

Recently I actually read an article about how Jason Kidd tells his kids to be the scorers in a basketball game and to lead the team because playing second-fiddle rarely leaves as much of a legacy. In the current generation of NBA players, he's definitely the #1 pure point guard out there because of his balanced game. Stockton put up more assists and brought his teams very far, but he and Kidd both helped their team's to success and, in their respective times, will both be remembered as being great point guards.


The '03 draft class, Dwight Howard, and other young players may be emphasized a bit too much by the media, yet they're breaking records rapidly and displaying solid talent. Right now it's looking like Lebron and D-Wade and maybe Melo will be very high on the all-time scorers list and the likes of Dwight Howard may end up putting 15-10 or 20-10 for the rest of their careers.[/b]

[---]

i have read all these post but it might of already been said, Vince Carter was nuts from 1999 - 2002

[cyanide]

Maybe you are just living in the moment, and at the moment the guys you named are the top players today. I dont know if they are worthy of being named with Magic, Jordan, and Bird, but they are some of the best in the current nba. Again the only one you named that has done anything as far as championships is Wade, and he had a little help from Shaq, who you were putting down, and alot of other very talented role players. Shaq has been to the finals with 3 different teams, and on two of them he was the main guy. Sure he is slowly declining as a player, but he is one of the best centers ever. Dont let his current play fool you into believing this is how he has always been.

I'm not saying they're in the ranks of Magic, Jordan, and Bird, but I'm saying the young guys with potential could very well break records and bring championships to their respective teams. I have not been putting down Shaq as I said he could have very well been the only superstar in those five years, but what I'm saying is that Shaq was the "most dominant player in the game" at the time but he was contested by many others to be the "best player in the game." It seemed like there was an influx of various players that could make it to superstar status, but you never had a core like Jordan, Magic, or Larry that could consistently be considered the best in the game.

[The X]

I think the fact that the 2003 draft class was so strong (Lebron, Wade, Melo, Bosh, Hinrich etc) has really helped the game....you've also got Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudemire & a couple of others from surrounding draft classes....all these guys are very marketable, so this is a good thing for the league....it also helps the game that guys like Kobe are at the top of their games, as are players like Pierce, Carter & T-Mac (when healthy)....Iverson, Garnett & Duncan are still bringing it....Yao is getting there....Dirk is a bonafide superstar, as is Steve Nash....you've got international players making an impact....it's a whole lot of difference influences that are creating the new generation of NBA players....and with playoffs like this past seasons, it is really helping these guys....when you see what Lebron & Wade did in the playoffs, that was amazing....same with Dirk (minus NBA Finals)....what Amare did last year against Duncan & Spurs....what Melo does during almost every week....

but yep, it's good times....

[air gordon]

as Matthew was aluding to...Tim Duncan of course. this guy is good enough to spark the debate on whether he or Karl Malone is the best PF to ever play the game

these 2 aren't on the level of the greatest but i going to mention A.I and Bryant as superstars but Matthew also covered that point

[cyanide]

It was bugging me about why I felt those five years just seemed empty, and I think I can make a few more attributions regarding Iverson and Bryant. Those two guys came into the league as selfish players. While they transformed into players that can help their respective teams, they're still considered selfish (while not everyone would agree with me.)

Tim Duncan deserves more credit than I gave him. He's more of a low-key player that contributes more in terms of intangibles than with stats, so yes, I would say he would rank as a superstar. Unfortunately, he's difficult to market in the likes of Jordan or LeBron, which might explain my "feeling empty."

I think I'm understanding why I'm singling out LeBron and Wade as guys who could potentially be the dominant force that we haven't seen since Jordan is because of not just their stats, but because they're able to really make a huge impact on their teams. Another reason: they're very marketable.

[Mayerhendrix]

i have read all these post but it might of already been said, Vince Carter was nuts from 1999 - 2002

He's still reliable to put up 25-5-5 every night for NJ.

[BIG GREEN]

Another reason: they're very marketable

Yep..and that's the stat that Jordan had above all players before his time...the fact that he carried the NBA as an entity to another level. I see wade and lebron doing that as time goes along.

[KIG1]

Another reason: they're very marketable

Yep..and that's the stat that Jordan had above all players before his time...the fact that he carried the NBA as an entity to another level. I see wade and lebron doing that as time goes along.

I agree, the playoffs this year never got better ratings since when Jordan played. And a big reason of that is because LeBron and Wade both played in the play-offs.

[Metsis]

Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Vince Carter, Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemire, Tracy MacGrady, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Jason Kidd, Shaquile O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Kenyon Martin, Elton Brand, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Brent Barry, Michael Finley, Allen Iverson, Chris Webber, Yao Ming, Antawn Jamison, Gilbert Arenas, Larry Hughes, Michael Redd, Ray Allen, Lamar Odom, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace etc. etc. are all guy that were more or less dominant and all during post Jordan-pre King age. Okay some of them have just gotten up there in the last 3-4 years and some have faded fast, but all of these players have made some incredible high light reels and at one point were considered to have as much of star potential as anyone in the league... There were guys who could blow up big at any moment. Decide games, make the plays and were exciting to follow.

But with LeBron, Wade and Carmelo and Bosh etc. These are doing things at an age that they still should be learning the game and put up more pedestrian numbers and not be the brightest stars in the league. It was apparent when they changed the rules, was it last summer or the summer before that. With guys like King James and Chris Bosh and Dwight Howard coming in straight from High School and having immediate impact on their respective franchises, when you see that and then you decide, we can't allow kids that young get into the league!!! What the hell???

Young guns such as Bron, Wade and Melo are good and they put the rest of the post-Jordan-pre-King age guys at a dimmer light, simply because most of the star guys didn't get into the league when they were 18 to 20, but when they were from 23 to 24... Most guys need time to get adjusted and this bunch of ready guys have eternally changed the way things work in the league. Like Dumars giving up on Darko last season... I bet he would like to take that one back right now. He now has an opening at the center slot. Darko is what, 20 or 21 right now... 10 years ago, he would have had another 3-4 years time to develop before any team had given up on him, but with James, Bosh etc. pushing big numbers, they just had to give up on the tall Serbian...

I'm not saying that James, Wade, Bosh and Melo are better than Jordan or better than the guys in between, but I'm saying that these guys have changed the whole texture of the NBA draft. People are now expected to be ready to contribute from the start and when they can't they are pretty much written off in a single year... This is the legacy of 2003 draft class so far... Take Marvin Williams for example...

[thegreatdivide]

Metsis, while that was a very thought provoking post I tend to disagree with some points of yours.

1) Brent Barry should NEVER have even been considered on that list of players. While I appreciate the point you are making about highlight factor, he just doesnt evoke thoughts of Superstardom.
I think you drifted slightly off the course that this topic was created for.
I mean, if we're talking absolute Superstars between Jordans retirement and James' drafting - while using the likes of Bird, Magic and Jordan himself as benchmarks - then more than half of the people on your list would not qualify, then or now.

2) While 2003 was a draft yielding fantastic players I dont think it has a certain legacy to it. It is by no means a new phenomenon that players are discarded early on in their careers. It must be remembered and appreciated that the NBA is the BEST league in the world and as such deserves the BEST players playing in it. There are always other gifted, young prospects that are trying to prove their worth the next year.

Dont be offended by any means, I just think we're getting askew of where this topic should be going.

Personally, Shaq fits the bill as a Superstar during that period just off the top of my head.

[Fenix]

The thing is, we're living in a decade when hype is everything that matter. You can say that we have Arenas, Wade, Mcgrady, Howard and all those stars, but keep in mind that the 90's had a lot of stars, as much as we have now, it's only that they've been forgotten. Penny, Grant Hill, Kemp, hell, even Glenn Robinson (21ppg scorer for his career), Jerry Stackhouse (had a 30ppg season),... All those guys would be viewed as stars nowadays. Someone once said: if Steve Smith played today and had a cooler name, he'd have a multimillion shoe deal and would be considered to be a superstar. Also - I know many of you will hate me saying this - League made a lot of changes during the past 5, 10 years, so that elite scorers score a lot more than they used to. Quick, athletic guys without a jumpshot (Wades and Parkers) would be less efficient than they are now. I reality, Penny was just as good as Wade, and yet you can prove otherwise with stats. Inflation of stats is one of the worst things that happened to basketball in recent history. Would we have Tony Parker scoring 20ppg on .550 FG% in 1993? Really?

[Metsis]

I admit, that there are a couple of borderline guys on that list, but most of them were considered stars then and most of them are still considered ones. I even left out Stackhouse, Hill, Mourning etc.

But my point was that no matter what your age is, if you don't start producing right away, you are written off and can't even get a chance later...

NBA is the best league in the world. They should have the best players, but it doesn't mean that it actually has the best players... Not all players fit the NBA mold perfectly, but could still be considered tops of their field...

Fenix did have a very good point... The rules have changed quite a lot from the year 1990 to this day. And a good part of the change has been made to reduce defenders from using their hands too much. Which of course enables guys like Wade and Parker to be the players they are. Penny was great... But comparing players that have played in different era's has always been difficult. Rules change, people change, the game changes.

[thegreatdivide]

Metsis, very nice closing statement.

Your point about producing right away is very true and thats because the NBA is all about money. Its about getting asses in the seats at games and getting people excited. Rule changes do nothing to help promote basketball fundamentals.

Im having trouble remembering what i wrote previously. As i accidentally closed this screen trying to reply.

I just think that the word Superstar is thrown about far too much.

Also, to touch back on the Darko being dealt too early thing...Unfortunately for him and his many fans, he is not what you'd call marquee.
Its just my guess but i'd say it would be hard to market your basketball team to fans with a timid foreigner as the face. Teams NEED players with flair and personailty in the NBA more than they need a player with a firm grasp of fundamentals.

Im also pretty sure that most people on this board would say that VC is Waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Joseph Forte, but if you look at their college stats (keeping in mind that Mr. Forte is one of those players who was given up on in the pros.) you'd find it hard to see why:
Vince Carter:

MIN FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG TPG BPG SPG PPG
95-96 N Carolina 17.9 49.2 34.5 68.9 3.8 1.3 1.2 0.6 0.6 7.5
96-97 N Carolina 27.6 52.5 33.6 75.0 4.5 2.4 1.4 0.8 1.4 13.0
97-98 N Carolina 31.2 59.1 41.1 68.0 5.1 1.9 1.1 0.9 1.2 15.6
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS 26.0 54.7 36.8 70.5 4.5 1.9 1.2 0.8 1.1 12.3

Joseph Forte:

MIN FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG TPG BPG SPG PPG
99-00 N Carolina 33.2 45.9 35.9 75.2 5.5 2.6 2.4 0.4 1.5 16.7
00-01 N Carolina 34.7 45.0 37.7 85.3 6.1 3.5 2.5 0.4 2.0 20.9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS 33.9 45.4 36.8 81.0 5.8 3.0 2.4 0.4 1.8 18.7

Its about marketability.

Dont get me wrong guys, Im all for modern day Superstars but if we're talking Bird, Magic, Jordan etc. then a lot of todays Superstars are a Looooong way off.

[J@3]

Im also pretty sure that most people on this board would say that VC is Waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Joseph Forte, but if you look at their college stats (keeping in mind that Mr. Forte is one of those players who was given up on in the pros.) you'd find it hard to see why:

I think that was just more the fact that Carter's game was better suited to the NBA than Forte's. No one gave up on Forte, he just didn't play very well at all. College stats can be fairly mis-leading, there's a reason a guy like JJ Redick who put up close to 30ppg in college only just scrapes into the lottery, where someone like Tyrus Thomas who's numbers are nowhere near as impressive is a top 5 pick. It's more about how someone's game translates as opposed to anything else.

[thegreatdivide]

Totally agree Jae.

I was in a roundabout way trying to point that out myself. Its just that when i closed my first response i couldn't remember how i worded everything.

Sidenote: hehe, I used to sign Joe Forte to my team in every NBA Live game.