90's vs. 00's : A rant about pussification of basketball

by **Fenix** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:45 am

Is that he heart of the difference between those two eras? Has basketball really transformed itself from a man's game to a show, where competivness and pride don't count anymore and everyone are only concerned with their egos and wallets? As much as I despise Shaq as a person, he's still greatly concerned with his legacy and has that inner fire great ones have which is rarer and rarer in today's NBA. It's not only what kind of human persons they are, but also the change of the game itself. I don't have to emphasize that this is more and more becoming a guards game and how the psychicality has no place on the court anymore. Big men are gone and so is handchecking, 'power' forwards and centres are getting more and more perimeter oriented... IMO, the basketball of the 90's was a game where the best players were dominating with both psychical and basketball skills, but there was always an equally pshychical answer for them. Nowadays, Lebron is unstoppable simply because no one can body him up on the perimeter. Man defense in the post is getting almost illegal and helf defense is more valuable than ever. Combine everything into the same package, and you'll get a game in which speedy guards became superstars overnight simply because no one is allowed to stop them on their way to the basket. Watching the Miami-Dallas finals with old school legends in it (Shaq, Payton, Mourning), I'm beginning to realize how much I miss those aspects of the game that are quickly dissapearing - psychical man defense, swagger, toughness... We all remember stories about Jordan's 'flu game', but MJ had very little of those games where he publically aknowledged his weaknesses (injury), simply because he was to proud, to competive and to smart to let opponents think that they have an edge on him. Same with AI - he just shut ups and plays. Nowadays, players like Wade (or at least marketing mashinery around them - which wouldn't work without his approval) seem to play every game with a serious injury or illness. A couple of games ago he had a flu, now he has a damaged knee, but yet he still somehow manages to play at his best. Impressive, considering that his knee hurts so much that he can hardly even walk, yet he can still run and jump with the best of them. Look at the legends of the past - Stockton, Malone, Payton, MJ, Pippen. If there was talk about their injury, it had to be a serious one. You won't convince me that the whole world has gone through a heavy case of commercialization in the past ten years - this is primarily baskeball-oriented problem. Baskeball players went from being men and gentlemen to metrosexuals and that certainly shows in the way this game is being played nowadays.

by **-Young Buck-** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:00 am

i agree with the inury thing, they were talking about wade's flu like a week after he said he was fine. I think its just a way to make them seem "superhuman". Iverson is always injured and i never hear him talk about it. but it seems as if Wade has a hang nail its major news, and he is so great to play with it. As far as the toughness in the game, i think it has gone away, but some of it is because of alot of floppers. This isnt a mans game where a guy will say bring what you got, ill stop you. Todays game is if you are stronger then me and bang me, im going to flop like a woman. Just like that foul on Shaq by Stackhouse last night...how was that a fragant foul? he went for the block but shaq was too big and tall for him to leap over him. Plus im sick of all these players crying over a foul called. These refs dont make it up you know. The league is full of soft, babies that cry when they dont get their way, its about time someone isnt spoiled in the league.

by **Silas** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:10 am

I think we can blame it entirely on Manu Ginobili, Jason Collins, and Reggie Evans.

by **maes** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:53 am

I think it's a pick your poison type of situation.

The 90s weren't all wine & roses. I remember back then that Shaq was considered a walking offensive foul, because he was compared with guys with real skill like Olajuwon. And the game was slowed down so much that guys like Anthony Mason were Point Guards because he had the necessary power and upper body strength to handle the ball without getting hacked and stripped.

The main reason whistles were swallowed in the 90s is that because the league believed (correctly) that their stars made the money. People don't pay $200 for a ticket to see Michael Jordan & David Robinson foul out in the 1st quarter.

I think we can have a nice blend of offense & defense if they change the Fouling Out rules.

by **dada** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:19 am

I "almost" stopped reading when I read about hand checking. I just think its such a petty thing that people blow out of proportion. Its not that serious.

Anyways, theres a problem with originality in the NBA and I blame the media more than I blame the players. An example is where a few people on here criticized Kobe Bryant for pumping his fist after hitting that game-winner this postseason. People say he is copying MJ but I am positive MJ wasnt the first ever person to pump his fist after a big shot. Its just that we have seen that shot over and over and over so many times that we unfairly associate that iimage with him. Thats MJ's thing, just like the tongue. Now nobody else in the history of the world should do that. Just like MJ's fadeaway. Burn any player who takes that shot in hell. I say its plain unfair. Maybe we should watch more Classic games and curse people in the 80s/90s era for copying moves.

About the flu thing, reporters are constantly looking for a good story and when they get something they will do the most with it. Its not like Wade went out there and said"Hey bitches, I got the flu so come watch me run and jump like I always do and make great plays so you can call me God." They asked him a question and he answerd. Nowadays the media pay more attention to it because it made great news in MJs time so it may make a great story now. It makes them look like they are updated on all basketball news and makes for a good time waster during the pregame.

by **Laxation** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:53 am

I always figured the media talked up Wades injuries so that they can have another excuse for the next 12 months... it worked last year, didnt it?

by **Sauru** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:23 am

my biggest 2 problems with the nba now are the flops and the stupid pump fake fouls. first the flops, they ruin the game. they need to start calling fouls on floppers. they need to prevent them from always taking a dive and ruining the flow of the game. secondly and even worse imo is the pump fake drawn fouls. i hate seeing a player like wade stoping to shoot, pump faking, then jumping into the defender to get to the line. i mean they actually jump into the defender, why is the foul not called on them? its very annoying. those are my 2 biggest problems with the nba as it is right now.

by **volsey** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:34 am

even worse imo is the pump fake drawn fouls

I hate those fouls also, the players dont even focus on making the shot, they just jump into the player and throw the ball.

by **OuT KasT** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:44 am

Just a way to get the foul and have the easier shot I guess.

by **Donatello** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:47 am

OuT KasT wrote:Just a way to get the foul and have the easier shot I guess.

No shit. That's the point. It's cheap as hell.

by **BIG GREEN** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:51 am

volsey wrote:
even worse imo is the pump fake drawn fouls

I hate those fouls also, the players dont even focus on making the shot, they just jump into the player and throw the ball.

It's one of the stupiest things in the nba;Reggie miller made his career on that. The refs starting to curb the flops...so i think they should start calling offensive fouls on jump shooters who jump into the defender. It's an obvious transgression that has gone on since the rules were invented.

by **dada** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:57 am

Maybe technical fouls for extremely obvious flops...similar to yellow cards for diving in football (soccer).

The refs have been doing a better job with those pump fake fouls in recent years. I've seen plenty times where guys didnt get the call, even an offensive foul once in a blue moon.

by **Matt** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:36 pm

Yohance Bailey wrote:
volsey wrote:
even worse imo is the pump fake drawn fouls

I hate those fouls also, the players dont even focus on making the shot, they just jump into the player and throw the ball.

It's one of the stupiest things in the nba;Reggie miller made his career on that. The refs starting to curb the flops...so i think they should start calling offensive fouls on jump shooters who jump into the defender. It's an obvious transgression that has gone on since the rules were invented.

actually i like that. It's just simply bad defence on the defenders part. The offensive player once he gets his man in the air decides to change up his shot and do a leaner instead, and gets whacked by the defender (who at this point cant do nothing about it).

The only problem is sometime they call it on a player who jumps perfectly vertical with his hands straight up, which can never be a foul even if a guy jumps into him.

by **Colin** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:49 pm

A good pump-fake drawn foul is nice. One where you fake the guy out and he's flying towards you. But if they just get them straight up in the air and jump into them...that's stupid.

And about Wade being sick. Like someone else said, he isn't going around letting everyone know he's sick and bragging about it or something. It's just the 'age of information' right now. At this point if Eduardo Najera's second-cousin has a daughter whose house burned down I wouldn't be surprised if it's "NBA" news over on ESPN, so of course they'll try to find anything and blow it up.

by **Cloudy** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:58 pm

I spend a lot of time watching NBA games this year, the most in my life. I do have to agree with the Pussification. The referees make really bad calls, they always make stupid wrong calls and they just replace it with another bad call for the other team. I see players bumping onto players and no fouls called, but once any player drive into the PAINT. Any contact is foul, bulllllllllllllllllllllshit. YAY

by **Teej2005** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:00 pm

That was easily a flagrant foul that Stackhouse did on Shaq. If you watch the 100 replays, you never see Stack go for the ball, just the arms. Stack himself is not a dirty player but to say it wasnt a flagrant foul is to watch the game blind folded.

If MJ were in his prime today he would average 40 points a game. The game is now made so there is more scoring...

by **-BHZMAFIA-** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:15 pm

Yohance Bailey wrote:
volsey wrote:
even worse imo is the pump fake drawn fouls

I hate those fouls also, the players dont even focus on making the shot, they just jump into the player and throw the ball.

It's one of the stupiest things in the nba;Reggie miller made his career on that. The refs starting to curb the flops...so i think they should start calling offensive fouls on jump shooters who jump into the defender. It's an obvious transgression that has gone on since the rules were invented.

I agree, it seems like Wade is about to start doing this for the rest of his career now. It can also cause serious injuries like what happened to Kobe shoulder when he attempted to do it one game.

by **Fenix** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:30 pm

About the flu thing, reporters are constantly looking for a good story and when they get something they will do the most with it. Its not like Wade went out there and said"Hey bitches, I got the flu so come watch me run and jump like I always do and make great plays so you can call me God." They asked him a question and he answerd. Nowadays the media pay more attention to it because it made great news in MJs time so it may make a great story now. It makes them look like they are updated on all basketball news and makes for a good time waster during the pregame.

'Age of information' didn't started with the end of the 90's. If Wade and the team decided that they'll keep their injury informations confidential, they'd be able to do it. I mean, Jordan did a decent job of hiding his bad knee during his Washington days. Why shouldn't Wade be able to do the same, considering he clearly isn't bothered as much as he should be considering the reports?

my biggest 2 problems with the nba now are the flops and the stupid pump fake fouls. first the flops, they ruin the game. they need to start calling fouls on floppers. they need to prevent them from always taking a dive and ruining the flow of the game. secondly and even worse imo is the pump fake drawn fouls. i hate seeing a player like wade stoping to shoot, pump faking, then jumping into the defender to get to the line. i mean they actually jump into the defender, why is the foul not called on them? its very annoying. those are my 2 biggest problems with the nba as it is right now.

Regarding the flops - I really think there's a difference between notorious floppers of both eras, for instance Rodman versus Ginobili. Was Rodman flopping? Yes, but I consider that to be legitimate defensive tactics - you must get your opponent into a position to foul you. That's the main difference - Rodman did get his man into that position AND he did get touched. There was legitimate psychical contact every time. But with guys like Ginobili and Bell, they're just falling down.

I agree with Matt on the topic of pump fake fouls - they are just once again a legitimate tactic to draw a foul, a way to punish your opponent for playing bad defense.

by **Matt** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:48 pm

why is it that Stackhouse went to hoop hard twice, there was plenty of contact and no foul but when Wade goes there's touch fouls? Not saying he doesn't get hacked, but obviously theres a lot of ticky tack calls.

What we need is Charles Oakley back in the league, Rodman too and Dikembe's elbows. Wouldn't mind Bill Laimbeer too.

by **Fenix** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:32 pm

That'd be awesome :lol:

. Damn, I miss those NY and Chicago teams of the 90's. We need more of those hardnosed, tough guys who'd break your skull in a bar fight in a second. I want more Oakleys in this league and the scary thing is, that there isn't many out there available. I hope Nocioni will develop in such a player. He certainly shows all the potential.

by **Matt** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:28 pm

yeah Nocioni is a hardnosed guy. All i want from the game is a little more physical contact, especially in the post. Obviously call the pushoffs (Zo) and the holding, but let the guys play alittle. On the perimeter they should ease up too....i mean that's how guys like Darrell Armstrong, Jaque Vaughn, Charlie Bell and Lindsey Hunter make their living.

by **Matthew** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:31 pm

Is that a thought that developed (players on the perimeter should be allowed to be more physical) after Wade burned the pistons?

by **Fenix** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:37 pm

That and with guys like Harris and Barbosa got to the rim at will. That shouldn't happen, they shouldn't be able to 'dominate' in that manner. Wade I understand, he's a terrific player and I'm respecting him more and more, but there's an increasing trend of small speedy guards who get past their player simply because they're so fast that no one can't stay in front of them. That means that 'good defense' is kinda limited to the speed of your lateral movement, which shouldn't be the case. It shouldn't be (solely) an athletic discipline, but also a skill and the rules nowaday are preventing that.

Edit: just realized that Matthew was reffering to Matt and his affection towards Pistons.

by **The X** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:03 pm

people might mention that guards like Harris & Barbosa shouldn't dominate....but the NBA game had become very stagnant so the NBA tinkered with rules such as handchecking to try & speed up the game & make it more visually pleasing for the fans....most speedy guards like the 2 mentioned, as well as the likes of Tony Parker have benefited immensely from these rule changes....but we already know that....

by **Matt** on Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:26 pm

yeah but those guys "domination" is limited because they 1. can't shoot well enough consistently enough 2. once a big man comes over to cover the rim they often do miss (of course this requires precise rotations)

It's a bit worrying though, to see guys who aren't that quick, getting to the rim at will.

90's vs. 00's : A rant about pussification of basketball

90's vs. 00's : A rant about pussification of basketball

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