Indiana Pacers Offseason Thread

[Indy]

OK, so many of you may remember my comments in last years offseason. I made certain guarentees about a certain team winning it all. The nut job was more nuts then I thought, Tinsley and Jermaine got hurt, Rick Carlisle lost the team, and we began a downward spiral.

Last season I said that if this Indiana team doesn't win a championship, we need to blow it all up, which includes trading Jermaine O'Neal. However, at this point, JO's trade value is far too low, and with all that's happened I don't think its fair to him to give up on him now.

The Fire Rick Carlisle plan:

FIRE RICK CARLISLE! This is the number one priority. I know it seems unfair because of all the Rick has gone through with this team, but that's the business. Jackson and Tinsley are not going to get a whole lot in return in trades unfortunately I don't think, and if Rick is going to continue to coach here, they HAVE to be moved. I'll give you an example of how bad the relationship between Tins and Rick is.

Before 1 home game late in the season, Tinsley was out on the floor in his warmups warming up for the game. Rick went up to him and told him that Anthony Johnson was going to be starting instead of him because he's been playing well. He also said that Saras was going to be substituted in before him, because Larry told him the Saras needs more minutes at the point. Tins then went off on a profanity filled rant and stormed off the floor. He did not return for the game, and it was announced that he missed the game because of a sinus infection. A sinus infection... This is not an isolated incident. Tinsley may be hurt a lot, but if he went somewhere else, I'm telling you right now, he'd be hurt less. Tinsley hates playing for Rick Carlisle so much that he exaggerates his injuries in order to get out of having to play in Rick's offense. Personally, I choose Tins over Rick.

I also choose Granger and David Harrison over Rick. Rick had a famous problem in Detroit where he refused to play Tayshaun Prince over Michael Curry. I don't want the same thing to happen here, I want him out so these two guys can flourish.

Hire Rick Adleman. He is known for being a players coach, and I think Tinsley would love playing for him. I think his injuries would miraculously disapear if Adleman was coaching. This is an opportunity too good to pass up, and I hope TPTB (The Pacers top brass) don't drop the ball on this one, but they will, and Rick will still be on the sidelines next year.

Sign and Trade Peja Stojakovic Seeing Peja in a suit for all the critical games in the playoffs gave me a nasty taste in my mouth. I see what all the Sacramento fans were warning us about. Peja's a great shooter, and it was fun to watch him for the last part of the season, but he just doesn't help this team at all right now. Danny Granger is going to be an all-star down the road, but he needs the minutes. In order for him to get the minutes Rick and Peja need to go.

Possible deals for Peja: Peja/17th pick To Houston for Luther Head/8th pick

Peja/Tinsley/Foster to Phoenix for Kurt Thomas/Leandro Barbosa

Peja to Orlando for Jameer Nelson

Peja/Tinsley to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich

Peja/Foster/17th pick to Golden State for Mickael Pietrus/Andris Biedrins

Peja/Jackson to Washington for Caron Butler

Peja to Sacramento for Ron Artest

I would do any one of these trades, but I think I may bust a nut in my pants if we did the Chicago trade. I'd be shocked if it happens though. Its too bad Larry Bird is so in love with Peja. He'll re-sign him, and probably overpay.

Re-sign Fred Jones
He made a convincing argument to be re-signed in the playoffs. If it wasn't for Fred Jones, we would have been swept by New Jersey. He is an extremely underrated player when he's playing well. It will only cost 3.5- 4 million a year to keep him, and I think he's worth it.

The keep Rick Carlisle plan:

Whether or not Rick is on the bench next year makes such a huge difference in who is kept and who isn't. I would rather fire him, but this is the more likely offseason scenario, given that Larry loves Rick.

Trade Jackson and Tinsley This is a must if Rick is on the bench next year. Possibly moves:

Tinsley to LAL for Chris Mihm.

Tinsley/Jackson/Foster to Denver for Earl Boykins/Reggie Evans

Tinsley to Boston for Kedrick Perkins

Tinsley/Jackson/Foster to Cleveland for Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Tinsley/Jackson/Foster/17th pick to Utah for Matt Harpring/Mehmet Okur

Jackson/Tinsley to Detroit for Carlos Delfino/Kelvin Cato

Jackson to Dallas for Marquis Daniels (Very likely)

Ok, I'm tired of typing, but don't worry folks, I have more to say. I'll do the rest later.

[Matt]

if i was the Pacers GM i'd force Carlisle to start Granger and play him 35mpg.....that kid has ALOT of potential and his game evolved nicely during the season.

Secondly get rid of Peja.....too many injuries, bad playoff performer, shitty defender.

I'd also want to add a player or two that can create a shot for themselves.....Fred Jones can do that, but i don;t know if Pacers want to start him or not.

[Indy]

if i was the Pacers GM i'd force Carlisle to start Granger and play him 35mpg.....that kid has ALOT of potential and his game evolved nicely during the season.

Secondly get rid of Peja.....too many injuries, bad playoff performer, shitty defender.

I'd also want to add a player or two that can create a shot for themselves.....Fred Jones can do that, but i don;t know if Pacers want to start him or not.

You're absolutley correct on all 3 points.

I love Jackson, but the Jackson for Daniels swap is a trade I'd like to do. Marquis Daniels is very good at creating his own shot, and I think he'd fit in well here.

[cyanide]

While I don't have much to say to all the points, I was just incredibly surprised to see you scream bloody murder against Rick when just last year you were claiming he should've been COY.

[shadowgrin]

I was just incredibly surprised to see you scream bloody murder against Rick when just last year you were claiming he should've been COY.

The whole Ron Artest betrayal incident changed Indy's outlook on Pacer-life.

[air gordon]

ESPN lists Peja's FA status as "Early termination option". care to explain this Indy.. anyone??

[Silas]

I like your Ilgauskus trade, it'd really make Indiana a huge low post threat, and Ilgauskus would be involved in more of a set offense, the kind of offense he shines in. This would also take some pressure of Jermaine, but it'd leave a gaping hole in the back court that they'd need to solve, still its definitely worth it.

[Indy]

ESPN lists Peja's FA status as "Early termination option". care to explain this Indy.. anyone??

He has a year left on his contract, but he has a player option to opt out of it. He has already said he will opt out in order to get a more secure long term deal, but he says he fully intends to re-sign here. Larry also said he will look to resign him.

[Laker Socks]

OT: KG has that early termination option in 2008.

The lakers have the 2008 cap space plan. Could it be? Of course, Jerry west is no longer our GM so the chances are slim. But still...

Back on topic, Mihm for tinsley? Wow. that would be a great deal for the lakers and a decent one for Indiana. Hell, Mihm/Cook for Tinsley would still be a good deal for the lakers.

[Fenix]

Wow, it looks like Pacers will play a 2nd fiddle to teams like Detroit, Mavs and Miami for a while. It looks like Stojakovic will be resigned, which is bad, because I don't believe a heartless and defensless jump shooters with diminishing skills should be anything more than your 3rd or 4th best player, not to mention that you already have a guy, tailor made to play a 2nd fiddle as your star. IMO, Indiana is a team of very good role players. Sure, Detroit is also just like that, but at least they stay healthy and their collective talent is greater than that of Indiana. And most of those trades are a joke.

[_marsal]

I'd re-sign Peja. They need firepower. Besides him Sarunas (who was cold in the 2nd half of the season) they don't have a shooter on their team. They need to get rid of Tinsley (who i really like when he's PLAYING but because of all the injuries, he must go) and Jackson (too streaky, can't count on him and most of the time he's taking bad shots - besides, i really like Fred Jones)..And should trade Jermaine and get a low-post presence in return. KG would be great (maybe trade Jax, Tinsley and O'Neal for him) , but even someone like Odom or Krstic or Marion or Bosh..you get the point.
Oh and yes, trade Rick and get Adelman. I'm tired of seeing the Sarunas signing going to waste (he plays him at SG which is stupid)...

[Laker Socks]

Trade rick?

How is that possible?

[_marsal]

OK, switch trade with fire

[Indy]

Looks like Al Harrington is coming back to town in a sign and trade, most likely for Croshere, or possibly AJ or Tinsley. I don't know how I feel about that, but its a move that's needed to stay in contention.

We also made a 5 year 35 million dollar offer to Bonzi Wells, not sure how I feel about that either.

If we can get both of those players, its worth it as long as we pick up a shooter in a trade for some combination of Foster/Tinsley/Jackson. Too bad Denver doesn't have any worthwhile shooters, they'd be perfect takers for Foster/Jackson. Unfortunately, unless they are willing to give up Andre Miller for that package, they aren't going to make a good trading partner for us. And he DEFINITLEY doesn't help the outside shooting.

A lineup of AJ/Bonzi/Granger/Harrington/JO would get zoned to DEATH. Granger has showed a nice outside shot, but I don't want to have to rely on that.

Thats a very, very strong defensive roster, that's for sure.

Rick Carlisle and JO have been given a lame duck status. If this season is sub-par again, then both will be gone next summer. Both are definitley here to stay for this season.

Peja decided he was leaving as soon as he heard Rick was coming back. I believe he really hated Rick. He got a big money offer from New Orleans, and that's all its really about for him. Losing him doesn't really hurt too much, its probably for the better, although our outside shooting is really going to suffer with the roster the way it is now, and the two most likely additions (Bonzi and Al) aren't going to help that much. Mike Miller or Matt Harpring sound pretty good right now as guys that could come off the bench and provide scoring. If Bonzi is signed, I am against re-signing Fred Jones, because we'll need a shooter coming off the bench as a two guard, and I honestly believe that James White will be better then Fred Jones in 2 years, and he'll have an even more exciting arsenal of dunks.

I really hope Shawne Williams is a surprise and can come in and contribute right away. I do think he'll be a nice player in the future, but I'm still a little peeved about passing on Marcus Williams. I would have been willing to start him this year, and move AJ and Tinsley for a shooter.

Jack and Tins are most definitley gone, especially with the news that we are actively pursuing Bonzi.

[iKe7in]

How could they sign Bonzi for that much? It would be more than the MLE and they don't have any cap room, especially if they were to bring in Harrington in the sign and trade.

Personally I think the point guard situation is the worst of any team in the league, and I don't know how they could have passed up any point guard in the draft, let alone Williams.

[Indy]

How could they sign Bonzi for that much? It would be more than the MLE and they don't have any cap room, especially if they were to bring in Harrington in the sign and trade.

5 years 35 mil is the MLE smart guy. And bringing in Harrington in a S&T wouldn't affect that cap at all. That's the whole point of a trade.

Personally I think the point guard situation is the worst of any team in the league, and I don't know how they could have passed up any point guard in the draft, let alone Williams.

Worst of any team in the league? It's not good, but that's a stretch if I've ever seen one. When Tinsley is healthy he is an excellent point guard, Johnson is the best backup PG in the NBA, and Sarunas hit the rookie wall, but I'm not ready to give up on him yet, he just needs a more stable roster.

[iKe7in]

I thought th MLE was more like $5 mil a year? Sorry, my bad. And what I meant with Harrington was that even if they were able to dump a salary like Croshere, signing Harrington wouldn't save them any money.

And Tinsley is definitely a rotation guy, but I'd have trouble ranking him in the top 20 of point guards in the league. Johnson is not the best backup in the league, Claxton and Mo Williams were. I'd still put Nate Robinson, Chris Duhon, Damon Jones, Tyronn Lue (now that Claxton's there), Breven Knight, Devin Harris, Earl Boykins, Jarret Jack, Earl Watson, Derek Fisher and Shaun Livingston ahead of him. He's better than a lot of backups, but overall the position for the Pacers is weak. They should have tried to make a run at Claxton or Cassel.

And Saraus is not a point guard, he's more like a two guard in a point guard's body. He's a pretty good depth player, but he's by no means going to be a star or even starter in this league. And I didn't know there was a rookie wall for a 30 year old, 7 year euro-pro. I know he didn't play a 75 game schedule, but he didn't play nearly as many minutes a game, and there was certainly less pressure on him as a 7th or 8th option instead of a first.

[Indy]

And Tinsley is definitely a rotation guy, but I'd have trouble ranking him in the top 20 of point guards in the league. Johnson is not the best backup in the league, Claxton and Mo Williams were. I'd still put Nate Robinson, Chris Duhon, Damon Jones, Tyronn Lue (now that Claxton's there), Breven Knight, Devin Harris, Earl Boykins, Jarret Jack, Earl Watson, Derek Fisher and Shaun Livingston ahead of him. He's better than a lot of backups, but overall the position for the Pacers is weak. They should have tried to make a run at Claxton or Cassel.

Have you ever seen Jamaal play? Are you one of these fans that just started watching the NBA last season? After the brawl Jamaal was the best player on the team, and was an all star candidate. He was the number 1 scoring option and is capable of putting up 30+ point games. He's a wizard with the ball, and has gone through stretches where he puts up 10+ assists every game. Top 20? You have GOT to be kidding me. The injuries and attitude keep him out of the top 5, but he's still top 15 even with all the problems.

And Saraus is not a point guard, he's more like a two guard in a point guard's body. He's a pretty good depth player, but he's by no means going to be a star or even starter in this league. And I didn't know there was a rookie wall for a 30 year old, 7 year euro-pro. I know he didn't play a 75 game schedule, but he didn't play nearly as many minutes a game, and there was certainly less pressure on him as a 7th or 8th option instead of a first.

There's a rookie wall for every NBA rookie. Its a completely different leauge from Europe. Sarunas is a point guard. In fact, he's like the definition of a point guard. The biggest problem with Sarunas this season is that Carlisle played him at the shooting guard position too often, and that is really not his position at all. He's absolutley horrible playing shooting guard. I question if you've ever seen Sarunas play, other then a few minutes of ESPN games or something like that. I watched Sarunas play up close and personal 81 times last season (7 missed regular season games, and 6 playoff games). He was fantastic in the first half of the season when he was the starting point guard. Then he started playing more two, and his season went downhil.

[iKe7in]

Have you ever seen Jamaal play? Are you one of these fans that just started watching the NBA last season?

I've watched the NBA for about eight years now, and with the cable package I have there are about 20 out of market games a week, and I try to watch about 7 or 8 of them.

After the brawl Jamaal was the best player on the team, and was an all star candidate.

So after the top three scoring options were gone he was the best player on the team? Who did he have to beat out, Jeff Foster?

He was the number 1 scoring option and is capable of putting up 30+ point games.

Pretty much any rotation player in the league is 'capable' of putting up 30 point games. Last season Tinsley hit the 30 point mark...ummm...zero times. He actually only scored 20+ four times. But good to notice that he did score 5 points or less 11 times. In terms of assists, he hit double digits twice, and 24 times had five or less. He had 3 or more turnovers 19 times, and 10 times had equal or more turnovers than assists 10 times. In terms of shooting, he only shot 50% ten times when taking more than five shots.

So basically, he's not a scorer, he doesn't have the assist numbers of a good point guard, he turns the ball over a lot and takes a lot of shots but hardly ever hits even half of them. Sounds like an all-star to me

He's a wizard with the ball, and has gone through stretches where he puts up 10+ assists every game.

Really? Because in the last two seasons he hasn't done that once. The closest he came was early in the 04'-'05 season he had back to back games of 10 and 9, but in those games scored a combined 9 points, fouled out of one and had 6 turnovers.

The injuries and attitude keep him out of the top 5

Yeah, his attitude and injuries keep him from being one of the top 5 point guards in the league. That, and his lack of scoring ability, his low assist totals, his inconsistency, his turnovers and his shooting ability.

I've heard of hometown bias before, but this is ridiculous. Stop making up stats!

[Indy]

Jamaal is the perfect definition of a player that stats don't tell the whole story. If he is ever healthy you'll see what I'm talking about. He's had stretches of health where he has been absolutely brilliant. It's clear to me that you just haven't watched him play very much.

I think if Rick were gone his health would magically get better, but since he'll be back, Jamaal needs to be moved.

[iKe7in]

Jamaal is the perfect definition of a player that stats don't tell the whole story.

And you were trying to prove to me earlier that he's capable of putting up 30+ points and goes on streaks when he gets 10 assists every night, so why are you basing your argument on stats and then avoiding them when they turn out to disprove your points? Stats may not tell the whole story, but they tell msot of it. If he was truly a good playmaker, his assist totals or his teammates assist totals would be higher, and his turnovers would be much lower. If he was truly a wizard with the ball, he wouldn't take so many three pointers, which he sucks at (24% last year).

If he is ever healthy you'll see what I'm talking about. It's clear to me that you just haven't watched him play very much.

If he's ever healthy? His games played and game starts have gone up every year he's been in the league (except his first two seasons, 42 then 40). Yeah he was injured as a rookie/soph, but the last time he missed significant playing time was three years ago.

Clearly I haven't watched him as much as you, but I have seen enough of him to know that he's not at the point where he can be an elite point guard who makes all his teammates better and contribute to a championship, and probably never will be. He's a good backup on a good team, or an average starter on a mediocre team.

He's had stretches of health where he has been absolutely brilliant.

So far the only time I've seen him put up big numbers and contribute to wins was right after the brawl. But then he was pretty much the only scoring option they had left. They lost about 45 points per game, so someone had to make it up. He's probably put up the same type of numbers if he had played in Charlotte (a la Brevin Knight).

I agree he needs to go, but he could just become the backup if they were able to land a legit staring pg in a trade or in the next draft, becuase right now it looks like they'll have a nice lotto pick next year

[ThaLiveKing]

What are you talking about . . Rick Carlisle just needs to change his offense. This guy Won 61 games with the Pacers and kept them in playoff hunt for two years!! Rick is one of the best coaches in the league. He just needs to switch up the offense IMO. And that's what Bird wants the Pacers to do!!


When the Pacers are healthy, they are better than Miami and as good as Detroit. they are still elite, when healthy

[Silas]

I disagree, I feel last season they were one of the elite teams in the league, and before Artest got suspended they had a fantastic shot at winning the title, but now they just have too many holes to fill. They are definitley going to make the playoffs next season, but as far as contention goes, I'd say they have a little ways to go.

[ThaLiveKing]

^^ True. But Any team would hate to play a healthy Indiana Pacers team in the playoffs

[Silas]

Just like any team would hate to play a healthy Kings team or healthy Nets team or healthy Cavs or healthy Spurs... There are the few playoff teams (Wizards, Bucks, Grizzlies, and possibly Lakers) that were weaker than the rest but most the playoff teams this year (when they're healthy) were pretty solid teams.