Kidd, Iverson, Nash

[Jackal]

Nash being picked over a healthy Kidd just goes to show...

[Matt]

it's a total insult to Kidd to be put in the same category as Nash if we are talking about their primes.

Kidd isn't the scorer that Nash is but he hit the big shots, played shut down defense, best rebounding PG, best passer and controlled the game like no other. You weren't gonna have career games against Kidd, whereas against Nash you can negate his scoring by scoring on his non existant defence.

[Masilo]

I say Kidd. He can't shoot but his playmaking abilities are among the best all-time and he is the far better defender than Nash and Iverson. Does a point guard need to score? In a team that relies only on run&gun offense like the Nash-Suns or Nash-Mavs, that's a big extra. In every other team his job on offense is done when he feeds the other scorers and hits his own open shots. Kidd can do that, and his defense in his prime was great. Among the players who played during Kidd's career, only Payton was a far better defender at this position.

Iverson's defense is way overrated. All he can do is getting in the passing lanes. He's very good at doing that and so he steals the ball 3 times per game. But ever thought about the opponent attacking more 80 times per game? Steals are so overrated...
He can stay in front of every player in the league because of his speed? Great but most of them will simply shoot over him.
Multiple scoring champion? Come on, he always takes 25-30 shots per game although he is a mediocre shooter. Look what Kobe does with the same amount of shots. Look what Nash does when he takes so many shots (series against Dallas in the playoffs 2005). Imagine what Dirk would do with the same amount of shots. Hell, there is such a bunch of players who can score 30ppg taking so many shots. The only thing Iverson is excellent in is drawing fouls and getting to the line. But the best offensive guard? Maybe in three of ten games when his shot is falling. In other 4 games he is good but not better than several other point guards in the league. In the last 3 games he will suck big time, taking his usual 25 shots and hitting 8 of them. And I haven't even started writing about his habit to hog the ball. Ever seen his teammates? They don't even move anymore on offense because they know they don't get the ball until Iverson dribbles himself to a corner against two defenders. That's the biggest reason why no scorer wanted to stay with the Sixers.

Nash is the best offensive point guard of them as he is a great shooter who does not force his shots very often. Also, he is a very good passer and ballhandler and likes to share the ball, passing the ball to his teammates where they need it. But his defense stinks. Even the best run&gun teams' offense will not work every game and then Nash's teams get slaughtered.

[Axel]

Nash being picked over a healthy Kidd just goes to show...

It goes to show absolutely nothing. Kidd is a better defender, but Nash is better offensively. They're both good in their own respects, and both have turned around franchises and lead their teams to success. Obviously Kidd has done it over a period of time, but that isn't really important to who is best in their prime.

[Matt]

alright, time to stop drinking the Nash love juice...anyone with any sort of intellect knows that Kidd in his prime shits all over Nash.

Kidd just plays hard and he outshustles MOST players in the NBA, big or small and that's a huge part of his game which ultimately lead to 2 NBA Finals appearances...not that Nash would know anything about that.

[Jackal]

It goes to show absolutely nothing.

It doesn't? It goes to show you either don't recall Kidd or didn't pay enough attention.

Kidd is a better defender, but Nash is better offensively.

Offense can be generated. Defense can't. Final possession, game tied, Kidd can drive take a layup, in a lot of cases he has had the ball on the final possession, do you see Nash defending a final posession successfully? Sure.

They're both good in their own respects

Yeah, and Kidd was better. A mediocre offensive game + good defensive game > a very poor defensive game + good offense. Heard of the saying defense wins championships?

both have turned around franchises

Martin, rookie Jefferson & Kerry Kittles opposed to Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion & Amare Stoudemire. Yeah, totally the same thing.

[Fitzy]

id definatly pick kidd in his Mr Triple Double days

[Matthew]

Vank, I hope your joking when you say Kidd was "very good" in the halfcourt offense when comparing him to Iverson (who carried his 76ers to the finals with their next best scorer was Mutumbo).

You're forgetting that AI has been playing PG only for the past two years, which is supposedly his prime. Sure, numbers prove that he is a good scorer and he has quite a few assists, but from a playmaking standpoint, he isn't exactly in the same league as Nash, Kidd and other pure PGs. That's why I rate Nash above AI when it comes to playing PG.

Thats fair enough, and you're entitled to take Kidd. But to say Kidd was great in the halfcourt and not acknowledge how good of a scorer Iverson was is a bit ignorant. It would be like having a who's the best centre thread, and someone chooses dwight howard over shaq becuase of Howards size.

it's a total insult to Kidd to be put in the same category as Nash if we are talking about their primes.

Absolutely. The MVP award has become a sham since nash won it.

The team was built around Iverson. He had scorers and they all wanted to leave.

Stackhouse, Hughes, Kukoc never asked to be traded. Isn't interesting how time diluets history. Soon people will say MJ won championships becuase he asked to win them.

No. He at least has a point. You haven't made one, other than trying to insult him. Go find out what an "ad hominem attack" is.

Don't make me spit my soda out in disgut. Wait wher'e the red font? Seriously, I didn't insult him. I used the example of how anyone can say anything, like Kidd is great at scoring in the halfcourt, but it doesnt mean its true does it?

I guess the movie making business will do that to you though .

[The X]

since we're talking in their prime, I'd have to go Jason Kidd without a doubt you're just lucky you didn't put Stockton in the poll

[GloveGuy]

Gary Payton.

Honestly, how Nash has 14 votes is beyond me. I'm seriously this close to leaving the forum, as I refuse to be part of a community where Steve Nash can compete in a poll against Jason Kidd.

The argument's already been made, but really, anyone arguing in favor of Nash is just embarassing himself.

[The X]

Gary Payton.

Honestly, how Nash has 14 votes is beyond me. I'm seriously this close to leaving the forum, as I refuse to be part of a community where Steve Nash can compete in a poll against Jason Kidd.

The argument's already been made, but really, anyone arguing in favor of Nash is just embarassing himself.

I think people just read the poll & who they thought was better now....surely poll results wouldn't be so close if they had of read the first post:

who would u want in his prime?

[Matt]

Gary Payton.

Honestly, how Nash has 14 votes is beyond me. I'm seriously this close to leaving the forum, as I refuse to be part of a community where Steve Nash can compete in a poll against Jason Kidd.

The argument's already been made, but really, anyone arguing in favor of Nash is just embarassing himself.

i'm sure you read the ESPN poll on top 10 PG of all time. Nash #9....Payton #10........i find that ridiculous since Payton more than doubles Nash All-Star appearances, has more Finals appearances and he was a regular on the All-Defensive team.

[TRUball]

i'm sure you read the ESPN poll on top 10 PG of all time. Nash #9....Payton #10........i find that ridiculous since Payton more than doubles Nash All-Star appearances, has more Finals appearances and he was a regular on the All-Defensive team.

You're joking right? Even now I'd take Kidd over Nash, not even close to being close if we are talking primes.

[Andrew]

Sure Iverson's got individual talent but it barely helps his team improve.
Kidd makes everyone participate while putting up a somewhat decent amount of points on a good night. It's no surprise that Iverson's team kept hanging around .500 all season while the Nets went on 2 double digit win streaks.

I don't dispute Kidd's abilities. I'd just take AI myself, and suggested a situation in which Iverson might be more successful.

What would you consider the right team for Iverson?

He had scorers around him, they all had to leave because they didn't like him hogging the ball. At that point, he couldn't play point guard, and wouldn't run a normal offense because he wouldn't pass to start a possession.

2001 was the best year for him with the only team they could get around him. A bunch of defensive stoppers who couldn't shoot and didn't want to.

As I said, a team with bruising and unselfish players a little like Isiah Thomas' Pistons. Players who are tough defenders but capable scorers. With AI's style of play the Sixers wouldn't have the same kind of distribution but that might not matter. I think Iguodala could become the right kind of player to be AI's main complement offensively and he's not a shabby defender either. Find some "enforcer" type big men and shore up the bench a bit (particularly at point guard) and I believe the Sixers would be in much better shape.

Honestly, how Nash has 14 votes is beyond me. I'm seriously this close to leaving the forum, as I refuse to be part of a community where Steve Nash can compete in a poll against Jason Kidd.

A bit extreme, don't you think?

[Matt]

AI would thrive with a Rasheed & Ben combo IMO.

[Srbija]

This is a tough one. I will say AI when at his prime.

[Fenix]

i'm sure you read the ESPN poll on top 10 PG of all time. Nash #9....Payton #10........i find that ridiculous since Payton more than doubles Nash All-Star appearances, has more Finals appearances and he was a regular on the All-Defensive team.

What the hell was that about? Nash has two good seasons and he become a top 10 at his position? Better than Payton? Better than Kevin Johnson? How can one of the worst defensive players in the League becomes a superstar? How is that possible?

[Matthew]

You could make the agument for him being ahead of KJ, actually no you couldnt. That is a disturbing poll.

[BIG GREEN]

Regardless of what anyone thinks of nash (i dislike him)...the fact is...he's achieved something only two point guards before him have done. He's the mvp..twice in a row...the basketball world voted it. With that said, in all fairness, he should be in the top 10 pg of all time just because of that fact.

[Matthew]

So should Ben Wallace be considered a top 5 defender of all time becuase he's won DPOY 4 times? Someone could say John Paxson and Derek Fisher deserve to be in the top 15 pg's of all time becuase they are amongst the very few pgs who won 3 straight championships.

Winning an award twice doesnt elevate you into the league of Kidd, Isiah, Magic, Iverson, Stockton, Frazier, Cousy, payton. Look at the stats, look at how his teams have done after he left. He's not a top 10 pg of all time.

[Jackal]

Regardless of what anyone thinks of nash (i dislike him)...the fact is...he's achieved something only two point guards before him have done. He's the mvp..twice in a row...the basketball world voted it. With that said, in all fairness, he should be in the top 10 pg of all time just because of that fact.

Nah, I don't buy into that. It's dandy and all that he got the awards, well deserved and all, but you want to tell me you'd mention him amongst people like Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson (although he was more a SG) and John Stockton? Please.

Nash is Nash, he's good. He isn't great. Awards be fucked, he's not in that level of greatness. My argument may not be the strongest, but I think a lot agree when I say you can't say Steve Nash + Isiah Thomas in the same breath.

[artestfighttrainer]

I would say Kidd but Nash is very quickly catching up, may surpass Kidd soon

[GloveGuy]

i'm sure you read the ESPN poll on top 10 PG of all time. Nash #9....Payton #10........i find that ridiculous since Payton more than doubles Nash All-Star appearances, has more Finals appearances and he was a regular on the All-Defensive team.

It was disturbing, to say the least.

A bit extreme, don't you think?

For anyone who's actually seen Kidd in his prime, this shouldn't be debatable. For anyone who hasn't, don't vote.

[Amphatoast]

so 2 good years make you top 10 all time? hahahah this is stupid.

[Masilo]

so 2 good years make you top 10 all time? hahahah this is stupid.

Nash was a two-time All-Star and two-time All-NBA Third Team selection with Dallas. So he had some good seasons before. But right, these haven't been exactly top10 all-time caliber type seasons.