Source: Nash to be MVP

[Jackal]

You basically just re-said what Tuomas said.

He never said he considered Amare the centerpiece, he was in fact saying that Nash is the centerpiece. Read what he said.

He said that when people say that the Suns are without their leading scorer, they make it sound as if Nash is just a role player.

[fgrep15]

why is it that people mention whom the Suns lost but not who they gained?

Cause it doesn't help their argument.

[Carmo]

but if you stuck Nash in the Lakers system, there's a good chance they get a couple more wins.

and who was going to score the extra points needed to win?

[fgrep15]

^
Who said that, no way the Lakers win more with Nash, they just don't have the options for his game to be effective. If Nash was on the Lakers, he'd have to play the game all the other PG's play that people hate on, which is scoring all the time. Nash can't drive and dish to guys behind the arc on the Lakers and expect them to all hit 40%+ or close to it.

[Carmo]

PHX4LIFE said it

[Fenix]

Q, Amare and Joe Johnson last year combined: 406 3pts, 58ppg, 20rpg, 7.1apg.

James Jones, Raja Bell, Kurt Thomas, Boris and Eddie House this year combined: 438 3pts, 55.7ppg, 22.9rpg, 12.5apg.

It's hard to say that they lost more than they gained, at least in the terms of the output.

[fgrep15]

That's also with KT missing a lot of the season, if you add Tim Thomas to that also, who basically became the replacement of KT, you see that they had more production.

[benji]

Let me start by saying my ballot would been: 1. Wade, 2. LeBron, 3. Dirk, 4. Kobe, 5. Arenas. So. I'm not a Kobe4MVP person. But Kobe is a better choice for MVP than Nash easily.

Let's get to all the various meme's that are being thrown out.

First of all, I've done this before so I apologize. But in regards to "Nash makes his teammates" better, we should all know how he does this by now. By dominating the ball and stopping them from dribbling.

Let's look at each player again.

Shawn Marion - He had the best season of his career this year, clearly Nash's doing right? Then why is it better than 04-05? 04-05 was as good as 02-03, though Marion did grab more rebounds. Nash can't improve him there.

Marion has changed how he scores from 79% jumpers in 02-03 to 60% this season. Which appears to be more a result of the system than Nash, though the jump from 68% assisted to 76% has been helped by Nash.

His DReb and OReb % in 0203: 16.5 and 5.1
0405: 7.7 and 19.8
0506: 7.9 and 21.3

Raja Bell - His PER since 0304 has been 12.69, 12.14, 12.94. As noted before Bell's jumper % has gone from 86% to 92%, shooting .483 in Utah, .563 in Phoenix. Though his assisted rate has fallen from 86% to 83%.

% of shots in the first 15 secs of the clock: 58% in Utah, 77% in Phoenix. His usage rate has fallen from 21.8 and 19.5 in Utah to 14.8 in Phoenix, his turnover rate falling from 9.8 and 8.7 to 6.9. However his assist ratio jumped from 9.7 to 16.0. So he was using fewer possessions, turning it over less on them and passing more.

Overall he didn't change terribly in terms of total efficiency however.

Boris Diaw - Here's the one a lot of people are rushing to point to as Nash's greatness first.

Diaw rebounded more than ever, passed more than ever, used the most possessions of his career by a hair. His shooting also shot up 100 points and his turnover rate was far lower than ever before in his career. But look at how his shot selection changed...from 66% jumpers to 49%. He also shot better despite being assisted LESS than he was in Atlanta. His early shots also increased from 57% in the first 15 seconds to 72%.

To me at least, it seems that most of his improvement came from it being his third year (when players usually improve the most) and being placed into a role better suited to his abilities.

James Jones - I don't really want to go over him in detail, but he was basically the same player in Indiana except for one thing. His turnover rate was halved. The result of him not having to create possessions anymore since Diaw and Nash were allowing him to just sit and fire away.

Leandro Barbosa - Here's another guy who basically had the same season he had his first three but cut his turnovers by a third and thus improved. I would say however he benefited from getting to play alongside Nash at the two guard, last season he played mostly point guard and almost never next to Nash. The reverse was true this season as he got to log a ton of minutes next to Nash.

Eddie House - House shot worse, assisted less, and turned it over more than he had the year before in Sacramento. Increased his usage rate. Played less with Nash than any other Sun.

Kurt Thomas - He was worse than his 04-05 season but is an interesting case. He fell halfway between his old rebounding and his high of 04-05. His shooting moved back up to the level it was a few years ago, 04-05 was a low point. His turnover rate also jumped back up after being quite low in 04-05, but his usage rate was the lowest of his career this season, losing 2.5 possessions off 04-05.

Kurt went from 89% of his attempts as jumpers, and 62% in the first 15 seconds to 72% and 76%. Which is consistant systemwide with the Suns.

Then there's Steve Nash...he might be the best evidence of the "system" (and the quality of his teammates) unless he's also making himself better. (He's made the Mavericks and Lakers better so I don't see why not.)

Pre-Phoenix: .529 eFG and .580 TS%, 0/8 10apg seasons, 8.5 assists per 40 min avg, 112.8 ORtg, 34.0 assist ratio
Phoenix: .571 eFG and .620 TS%, 2/2 10apg seasons, 12.6 assists per 40 min avg, 117.6 ORtg, 38.8 assist ratio

Over a third of his career assists come from just the last two seasons.

Nash is a great player, the best point guard in the league easily and underrated on defense (Only five point guards drew more offensive fouls and Nash finished in the top 25 for everyone) but he's not the MVP.

Would the Suns be worse without him? Of course, what team wouldn't be worse without their best player. But did Nash contribute to his teams success more than Wade, LeBron, Kobe or Dirk? Not unless you use things that can't necessarily be proven like "he makes his teammates better" or "leadership" but that's fine. Let the team beat writers and announcers hand out awards to their favorite players to watch, interview or makeout with. The most important trophy isn't handed out until the very end of the playoffs.

but can't even muster a 3 to 1 turnover ratio.....which is the standard PG's are judged by.

Which is pretty stupid as a/to ratio is a pretty meaningless statistic...

[GloveGuy]

The mark of a mvp is that he puts his teammates in a better light. He doesn't make his teammates better persay, he makes them seem better (which kobe has never done). In order to make ones teammates seem better the team has to win.

Says who? Since when is that the criteria for being the MVP? John Stockton did that until he was 40, yet it's Karl Malone who has two MVPs, not Stockton. When did KG make his teammates seem better? That's a bullshit criteria. I'm tired of this praise for Steve Nash because he can run the floor and find an open man. Isn't that what all point guards are supposed to do? It's not like Nash is making the shots. Kobe's making the shots. He's the creator AND the scorer.

To answer that question I give you this: so was it mike d'antoni who got nash to increase his ppg, apg, fg%, 3pt%? If you actually watched basketball you'd see that the lakers this year play with more intenstiy and more efficiently. Sorry, but that's not all kobe. See last year. If people are going to say that nash's stat jumps from dallas to phoenix is due to a system that benefits him and d'antoni, then I'm going to say that kobe's stat jump from last year to this is due to the triangle and phil's implementation of it.

FYI, the Lakers played triangle last year, so your point is meaningless. And last time I checked, Nash's assists went down from last year.

duncan, jordan, magic. You're right, every year IS different, and this year there is no duncan, jordan, or magic. there's kobe putting up numbers on a bad team.

Time to face the facts. Kobe Bryant is the most dominant shooting guard since Michael Jordan.

And everyone really needs to shut up about Nash's team getting worse. Every year's different. It still doesn't change the fact that the supporting cast is miles ahead of Bryant's.

[The_Flying_Tomato]

Last year you may not have said that. James Jones, Eddie House, Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Kurt Thomas, etc. Probably the only ones getting more than 10 mpg last year were KT and Bell. Nash brought his crew from nowhere. And of course they just needed the right system..

[benji]

2004-05 Minutes Per Game
K. Thomas: 35.7
R. Bell: 28.4
T. Thomas: 27.3
B. Diaw: 18.2
J. Jones: 17.7
E. House: 13.1

[fgrep15]

Last year you may not have said that. James Jones, Eddie House, Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Kurt Thomas, etc. Probably the only ones getting more than 10 mpg last year were KT and Bell. Nash brought his crew from nowhere. And of course they just needed the right system..

House and Jones are not very significant players to the team. KT and Bell were already starting or starting caliber players, and the only guy getting many more minutes is Diaw, but even he played 18.2 MPG.

[magius]

Says who? Since when is that the criteria for being the MVP? John Stockton did that until he was 40, yet it's Karl Malone who has two MVPs, not Stockton. When did KG make his teammates seem better? That's a bullshit criteria. I'm tired of this praise for Steve Nash because he can run the floor and find an open man. Isn't that what all point guards are supposed to do? It's not like Nash is making the shots. Kobe's making the shots. He's the creator AND the scorer.

when did kg make his teammates seem better? hassell, hudson, rasho, griffin, even wally to an extent. Who is to say that malone did not concurrently make john stockton seem better? You know whats bullshit criteria? basing the mvp entirely on a ppg average. I'm tired of this praise for kobe because he can run the floor and take a shot. Isn't that what all shooting guards are supposed to do? just because kobe has more value to his shit team doesn't mean he's the most valuable player in the league. If you're hiring someone for a job would you hire the valedictorian of a shit community college or a harvard graduate.

FYI, the Lakers played triangle last year, so your point is meaningless. And last time I checked, Nash's assists went down from last year.

FYI the lakers playing triangle last year means nothing. If anything it shows pj deserves even more praise. Anyone can run the triangle, not anyone can run it well. Not to say rudy is not a good coach, but pj has made a career out of the triangle. If you don't think that having pj coach the triangle makes a difference then i can't help you. Are you telling me that if i told sam mitchell to coach the spurs using the exact same playbook as pop the spurs would be the same team? give me a break. If that were the case coaches are completely insignificant. just hire any schmuck off the street and tell him to run the triangle.

Time to face the facts. Kobe Bryant is the most dominant shooting guard since Michael Jordan.

And yao ming is the most dominant centre since shaq. whats your point?

And everyone really needs to shut up about Nash's team getting worse. Every year's different. It still doesn't change the fact that the supporting cast is miles ahead of Bryant's.

to put up good numbers with good teammates on a team with a good record is far more impressive then posting impressive stats on a crap team. Of course it looks like the lakers are playing well right now against phoenix, but this is the mvp of the regular season.

[The_Flying_Tomato]

House is significant to the team. He's a great guy to jolt us a bit when we're sucking offensively. We need to play him more here. Jones is, agreed, pretty worthless. He was key, but T2 took that away.

[dada]

The way people talk about the Lakers being a "bad" or "losing" team you would have thought they only won 15-20 games.

Anyways..

Just a few comments.

Anyone can run the triangle, not anyone can run it well. Not to say rudy is not a good coach, but pj has made a career out of the triangle.

Phil Jackson hasnt really done a better job than Rudy. Before Rudy left he had basically they were basically going the same pace (in terms of team record). I wouldnt put either over the other on performance with team over the past two years.

Who is to say that malone did not concurrently make john stockton seem better?

If putting your teammate in a better light is the standard for mvp then there shouldnt be a question about whether or not he makes guys better. "Who is to say Karl Malone..." isnt really helping that case since it doesnt show clarity as to whether or not he did.

just because kobe has more value to his shit team doesn't mean he's the most valuable player in the league

Why shouldnt it? Its not 'best player on a good team', its 'most valuable player' so it should be measured on value to team and from I just read you concede Kobe as being more valuable to his team.

to put up good numbers with good teammates on a team with a good record is far more impressive then posting impressive stats on a crap team[quote/]
The best case for Nash is the argument about value to team and if its about "good numbers with good teammates on a good team" then its definitely Dirk Nowitzki, Chauncey Billups or even Lebron since his superior numbers basically make up the difference of 4 games between the 2 teams.

If you're hiring someone for a job would you hire the valedictorian of a shit community college or a harvard graduate.

I personally wouldnt jump the gun on any Ivy League grad since most people are aware of the grade padding going on in those places to keep reputation up. A person going to a community college doesnt mean they are less educated than the other guy, it just means they werent born with a golden spoon in there mouth which would make them able to pay the shitloads of money they charge to attend those schools.

[Matt]

all i know is that Kobe IS making his teammates better when it counts.

EDIT: nash should use some of his MVPism to try and not get abused by Smush.

[Matthew]

when did kg make his teammates seem better? hassell, hudson, rasho, griffin, even wally to an extent.

If you think KG made Wally, Hudson and Hassell better, why dont you credit Kobe for Making Smush and Kwame Brown better players?

You know whats bullshit criteria? basing the mvp entirely on a ppg average.

Nobody in their right mind is saying Kobe deserves the MVP becuase he led the league in scoring. They're saying he was the most valuable player because of his scoring input on an otherwise helpless laker ballclub.

I'm tired of this praise for kobe because he can run the floor and take a shot.

What the fuck? That has to be amongst the dumbest conculsions I've seen on here. Nobody is priaising kobe for being able to run the floor and take a shot.

just because kobe has more value to his shit team doesn't mean he's the most valuable player in the league. If you're hiring someone for a job would you hire the valedictorian of a shit community college or a harvard graduate.

So by that analogy I'm assuming you felt Dirk or Billups were the MVP?

FYI the lakers playing triangle last year means nothing. If anything it shows pj deserves even more praise. Anyone can run the triangle, not anyone can run it well. Not to say rudy is not a good coach, but pj has made a career out of the triangle. If you don't think that having pj coach the triangle makes a difference then i can't help you. Are you telling me that if i told sam mitchell to coach the spurs using the exact same playbook as pop the spurs would be the same team? give me a break. If that were the case coaches are completely insignificant. just hire any schmuck off the street and tell him to run the triangle.

Some interesting points there, but remember last season there was no smush parker, there was no kwame brown, and lamar odom was a shell of himself. Some credit needs to goto Phil Jackson, I'm not denying that. But you cant take it away from these lakers.

And yao ming is the most dominant centre since shaq. whats your point?

Actually Amare took that crown last season.

to put up good numbers with good teammates on a team with a good record is far more impressive then posting impressive stats on a crap team.

That "Crap" team is up 2-1 with homecourt against the Suns. Which is thecrap team again?

[Matt]

not only was Kobe posting impressive stats, but his team was WINNING. Now he's changed his game up on the fly @the most important time of the year and his team is still winning.

the worst thing about picking Nash is that he doesn't play defense....none.

[Matthew]

Whats even more interesting is Nash Fans say the main reason for nash getting the mvp is he makes his teamates better. well, surely no one can deny that on paper nash has superior teamates to kobe.. and yet in this series kobe is making his teamates better than what nash is to his teamates.

I wonder what reasoning we'll get if the lakers win, im guessing "its an award for the regular season, not the playoffs" jibberish.

[J@3]

I don't get all of this stuff about the Lakers being a losing team... they finished with a winning record, made the play-offs and now (irrelevant to the MVP award) are 2-1 up in a play-off series against the 2nd seed.

[Matt]

Playoffs is where REAL MVP's are born....Kobe is just playing a perfect game right now.

Speaking of playoffs, look like Peja has disappeared again

[dada]

Playoffs is where REAL MVP's are born....Kobe is just playing a perfect game right now.

Kobe isnt even sinking his regular shots and LA is still winning and people are still talking about his excellent play.

[air gordon]

as remarkable as a season Bryant had, i don't like the idea of giving the MVP award to a player on a team that's not even a top 5 team in their own conference

i would have voted Dirk or Wade as the MVP

but then again i think the league needs to be more specific on the criteria used for determing the MVP

baseball's best closer, i think it's called the Rolaid's relief player of the year or something like that has a specific system. the NBA should look into this as well imo

[magius]

The way people talk about the Lakers being a "bad" or "losing" team you would have thought they only won 15-20 games.

i'm not saying they're a "bad" team or "losing" team. When I say "crap" team I mean crap teammates (which i thought you'd understand within the context of the post).

Phil Jackson hasnt really done a better job than Rudy. Before Rudy left he had basically they were basically going the same pace (in terms of team record). I wouldnt put either over the other on performance with team over the past two years.

you're kidding right? you think that rudy t can come int la and learn how to coach the triangle to even close the same extent as phil? come on. This (rudy t) is the coach who is not even reknown for his tactics, and who's expertise is a big man led team. To say that kobe and the lakers did not directly benefit from phil coming back is ludicrous. Have you forgotten how much a shaq-kobe laker team improved when phil took over? Have you forgotten the improvent of the bulls? The lakers would not be in the playoffs it weren't for phil. They wouldn't be in it without kobe either, no doubt, but the point i'm trying to make is that phil has had as much of an impact on this laker team as d'antoni the suns.

Why shouldnt it? Its not 'best player on a good team', its 'most valuable player' so it should be measured on value to team and from I just read you concede Kobe as being more valuable to his team.

how valuable can you be relative to the league if you're team isn't good? Yes, you read it right, kobe is more valuable to the lakers than nash to the suns. Just like if I put a 12th grader on a 1st grade basketball team - that 12th grader would be more valuable to that 1st grade team than the star 12th grader to a 12th grade team - does that mean he should be voted national player of the year and will get drafted #1 in the nba draft?

If putting your teammate in a better light is the standard for mvp then there shouldnt be a question about whether or not he makes guys better. "Who is to say Karl Malone..." isnt really helping that case since it doesnt show clarity as to whether or not he did.

let me rephrase that then. karl malone made john stockton look better.

The best case for Nash is the argument about value to team and if its about "good numbers with good teammates on a good team" then its definitely Dirk Nowitzki, Chauncey Billups or even Lebron since his superior numbers basically make up the difference of 4 games between the 2 teams.

and i would've voted any of them (except maybe chauncy) over nash, I already said that. what i'm saying is even though nash may have been the wrong choice, I still would've voted him over kobe.

I personally wouldnt jump the gun on any Ivy League grad since most people are aware of the grade padding going on in those places to keep reputation up. A person going to a community college doesnt mean they are less educated than the other guy, it just means they werent born with a golden spoon in there mouth which would make them able to pay the shitloads of money they charge to attend those schools.

let me be more specific. Anyone would take a harvard graduate from the bronx with a full sholarship over a community college bronx born grad valedictorian with a full scholarship.

If you think KG made Wally, Hudson and Hassell better, why dont you credit Kobe for Making Smush and Kwame Brown better players?

you're right he has made them seem better. That said, not to the same extent as past mvp's have their teammates.

Nobody in their right mind is saying Kobe deserves the MVP becuase he led the league in scoring. They're saying he was the most valuable player because of his scoring input on an otherwise helpless laker ballclub.

what i'm reading is this: no one in their right mind is saying kobe deserves the mvp because he led the league in scoring. They're saying he's the most valuable player because he led his team in scoring.

What the fuck? That has to be amongst the dumbest conculsions I've seen on here. Nobody is priaising kobe for being able to run the floor and take a shot.

what are you praising him for then? Just being able to take a shot without the running part?

So by that analogy I'm assuming you felt Dirk or Billups were the MVP?

dirk yes 100%, billups maybe.

Some interesting points there, but remember last season there was no smush parker, there was no kwame brown, and lamar odom was a shell of himself. Some credit needs to goto Phil Jackson, I'm not denying that. But you cant take it away from these lakers.

while smush and kwame are bodies, I don't think anyone would credit the lakers improvement to them. After all, while the lakers didn't have them, they did have caron and chucky. Look, I'm not taking it away from these lakers; What i'm trying to do is point out that it is unfair to take credit away from nash and the suns, and not do the same with the lakers.

Actually Amare took that crown last season.

key word: last.

That "Crap" team is up 2-1 with homecourt against the Suns. Which is thecrap team again?

I wonder what reasoning we'll get if the lakers win, im guessing "its an award for the regular season, not the playoffs" jibberish.

yes that is the reasoning. Otherwise the mvp would be voted on AFTER the playoffs, wouldn't it.

I don't get all of this stuff about the Lakers being a losing team... they finished with a winning record, made the play-offs and now (irrelevant to the MVP award) are 2-1 up in a play-off series against the 2nd seed.

like i said before, i wasn't commenting on them being a bad team. I was commenting on the fact that kobe's teammates aren't all that good. Crap team without kobe, average team with him.

[2pac]

WTF U GUYS ON NASH FOR MVP MY ASS!! kobe had 7 assists last game that is very unlikely kobe is sharing the ball!!! plus if nash was such a "GREAT LEADER" they would not be losing to a bad team like LA