Official MVP Talk

[GloveGuy]

Who's it gonna be?

Let's be real, it's essentially down to three players. These guys:



Now while the second one is having a career year, and the first one is basically doing the same thing he did during his MVP year last year, except with less, this shouldn't be any contest, in my opinion.

Kobe Bryant is the league MVP.

There should be no doubt. C'mon, aside from Lamar Odom, he has Smush Parker, Brian Cook, and Kwame Brown. When those guys are your number 3-4-5 scorers, you know something's wrong.

There's no one doing more with less. Lebron and Nash have solid supporting casts, at least way more solid than Bryant's. Even though we just started hearing their names this year, I'd much rather take Boris Diaw(who was horribly mis-used with the Hawks), James Jones, and Barbosa over the Smush, Cook, and Kwame trio. I don't even have to run down Lebron's teammates -- Kobe's pale in comparison. After the underachieving Odom, the team is made up of guys who would normally be in the 8-12 range on most NBA rosters.

I'm thoroughly convinced that Kobe has gotten the most out of his team. I've watched him try to play the Nash role on that squad and it doesn't work. They're not good enough. They don't make open shots. Kobe's domination of the basketball gives the Lakers the best chance to win. There is no one more valuable to his basketball team than Bryant is. Without Kobe, they're the Knicks of the West sans any remote talent.

And on a final note, Kobe Bryant has practically been the 2005-2006 NBA season. The 81 point game, the reconciling with Shaq and Phil, the highest PPG since Jordan's in 1987. There is no choice here, fellas. Kobe Bryant is the Most Valuable Player in the league.

[TRUball]

I agree, but you forgot about Dirk... and Brand... and Billups... the race is going to be so close it's not even funny... I just read an article that said Dirk was the MVP, and he named the 5 people on his ballot and Kobe wasn't on it. Again this was the Dallas News, so he must of just 'forgot' about the 62-61.

[dada]

Dirks been slacking off recently and the Billups & Brand MVP talk has cooled down. At this point i agree with Gloveguy about those three guys. Its just that the other guys deserve notice and in recent years there has always been a clearcut guy leading the way.

[*Los Angeles*]

Yeah i think its down to those three, but Kobe should win it because of what GloveGuy said, Nash and James have better support even though Odom and Brown have improved since the all star break so Kobe has to score 40 a night to win. I heard someone say this, i think it was Tom Tolbert who said it on ESPN but if Kobe doesn't win it this year he will never win it.

[Fresh8]

The MVP race is simply way too close to call this season. Every candidate means so much to their team and is worthy. However, I would just like to bring up the one point. If Team MVP is supposed to be the Most Valuable Player to their team... shouldn't NBA MVP be the most valuable player to the NBA?

I believe that this should narrow the candidates down to the players that make their name be heard and help bring in money for the NBA. Therefore, the MVP should go to players who are excellent in themselves, help their teams and help the league be promoted.

If your team is a really good team, the main guys are going to be well-known. It's the same with players who are individually brilliant themselves... they will be well-known too. And once you put all the criteria together... you're going to have a smaller list of MVP contenders.

So if I went with my criteria... the likes of Kobe, Wade and Bron would come out on top. With Dirk, Nash and Billups close behind them. Of course, when I say how much a player means to the NBA... in Australia, it means to me how much they are known over here since bball isnt even that popular. If a players' name is known here, they must be doing something right, right?

I don't know but does that sound reasonable to all of you?

I know I haven't answered any questions... basically I just want to know if what I've said sounds reasonable of if it's just stupid?

[powerhoward85]

Nah...

The supporting cast thing is not true. Look at the suns games when nash didnt play at all. The were lose in offense and couldnt get open shots. Nash runs their play and make them look as if they are great supporting cast. Remember Q? He looks good last year but is now having a bad year in New York.

In addition, most of the guys now on the suns rosters are new. Yet they can play games like they have been for years.

Nash brings the team up by making everyone around him better. Kobe too brings the team up, but is all about himself and himself only. As far as 1 on 1, I would say he's the best now, but for mvp, it would still be nash this year.

[J@3]

Bill Simmons said something interesting that made me think, it doesn't happen often... I mean him saying something interesting, and me thinking...

1. Ten years from now, who will be the first player from this season that pops into my head?

Is anyone alive going to answer that with "Steve Nash leading Phoenix to the play-offs while only having Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw"? LeBron James, while a legit candidate, is leading a team packed with talent to a 4th seed in the horrible East... not to mention that virtually every player on that team is actually worse compared to last season, yet people still carry on about Kobe not making his teammates better.

I don't have a criteria, but I think if you look at things objectively Nash is instantly ruled out... for starters there's the whole D argument from last season, secondly there's the fact that most premier PG's in the NBA have completely trampled him and spat on his grave (and no, I don't want the MVP of the league to be dominated by anyone) and third, people want to give him credit for everything except the parting of the red sea.

People act like Nash has single handedly turnt the team into great players... Boris Diaw the other day had a triple double, including 16 assists without Nash in the game... was Nash controlling him telepathically from the sidelines? Sure he gives them easy shots, he's a point guard, that's what he's supposed to do. The facts are he DOES have capable team mates, the team doesn't live and die on the basis of Nash putting up 20/10. Do they lose without him? Of course they do, but 1/2 the teams in the league would still lose if you took their starting PG away.

Cleveland should really be doing better then they are with the team they've got. As great as LeBron is, with that kind of supporting cast there's no excuse for being the 4th seed and no higher. People can try to discount those players as much as they want, but would you take Ilgauskas, Gooden, Marshall, Hughes, Murray and Jones over Smush, Odom, Kwame, Mihm, Cook? Of course you would, yet they're only 5 wins ahead of the Lakers.

People talk about the Lakers season like they've got a losing record and only scraped into the play-offs because every other team pulled out. The facts are they're .543, in the East that would be good for the 5th seed. Hell, if they were in the Northwest division they'd probably be the 3rd seed in the West with this new system. They're 7-3 in their last 10 which is tied for the best in the league, Kobe is averaging 42.6ppg in his last 5... and the funny thing is, most people who read this won't even be surprised.

The biggest criticism on Kobe is that he "doesn't make his teammates better"... which is a term I hate to start with, I mean point guards distribute the ball, if they do their job properly and give it to the guy with the most open shot of course their teammates are going to get "better"... do you want them to be a 2 time MVP because of it?? Anyways I'm not up on Ben's ultra indepth stats so I'll use my own basic ones:

Kobe Bryant: He is +7.8ppg compared to last season... for comparisons sake, Mehmet Okur, who will probably finish 2nd or 3rd in MIP voting, is +5.0. Kobe's taking 7 more shots and hitting at 2% more... statistically, most of Kobe's teammates are either the same as last season, or slightly better. Look at the Cavs where you'll see a significant drop with almost EVERY player on that roster. It's obvious to anyone who's seen the Lakers this season that Lamar Odom is better, even if the stats don't suggest it.

He's also getting stronger as the season goes on. But hey, who says Steve Nash is declining? He's averaging 13/10 with 3 turnovers in his last 5, MVP! MVP! MVP! Up until the last few weeks I was voting Nash for MVP too, but once you stop being blinded by the fact that the Suns MVP is their coach, and that most of the improvements in Nash's teammates are mostly a result of more minutes doubts start gathering.

But of course, Kobe has great teammates... despite the .500+ record and the play-off spot, he's playing on a losing team (I have no idea how people come to this conclusion) everytime Steve Nash takes a shit it puts on a jersey and puts up a triple double.

The supporting cast thing is not true. Look at the suns games when nash didnt play at all. The were lose in offense and couldnt get open shots. Nash runs their play

He's a point guard, that's what he's supposed to do.

[Cable]

Canadian bias aside, I think Nash deserves it this year, but it's really, really close. Like powerhoward said, you take Nash out of the game, Phoenix will lose. Now, the same can be said of Kobe, since if Kobe comes out, you lose 35-odd points, but I think the key difference is that Nash makes his teammates better. How many of the Lakers are having career years because of Kobe? I'd say few, if none at all. Every one of the Suns looks better when they play with Nash. Then of course, there's the 'and he doesn't even have Amare to do it' arguement. That one may be overused, but without Amare, the Suns don't have a true center, they barely have a true power forward. At least Kobe has Kwame and Mihm, who are better than most of what the Suns have in terms of big men. Marion isn't really a PF, and I think Thomas and Grant were both hurt at some point, if I'm not mistaken. That leaves the Suns with ... Pat Burke and Tskitishvili. You try to tell me that those two are better than Brown and Mihm. Btw, what happened to Paul Shirley?

[J@3]

That leaves the Suns with ... Pat Burke and Tskitishvili. You try to tell me that those two are better than Brown and Mihm. Btw, what happened to Paul Shirley?

You've conveniently ignored Barbosa, Tim Thomas, Eddie House (who is better than Smush Parker) and James Jones.

[artestfighttrainer]

05-06 NBA SEASON MVP
STEVE NASH

I'm sorry Kobe, Lebron, Billups, Brand, Dirk, Wade, Marion and Parker and their respective fans but Hair Canada is repeating.

MVP! MVP! MVP!

[Cable]

That leaves the Suns with ... Pat Burke and Tskitishvili. You try to tell me that those two are better than Brown and Mihm. Btw, what happened to Paul Shirley?

You've conveniently ignored Barbosa, Tim Thomas, Eddie House (who is better than Smush Parker) and James Jones.

I was talking big men, but okay. I'd only know of House though Live before this year, and Tim Thomas was thought to be done for the season. Nash made all four of those guys better this year. A quick look verifies that none of the Lakers made significant improvements this year compared to last, while the most of the Suns have made improvements of like 50%.

EDIT: Sorry, I missed your post. The Lakers may have improved some, but are you telling me that Kobe has made Kwame Brown something other than a bust? Or that Smush Parker doesn't really belong in the D-League? Like I said, it's real close; the arguement for Kobe could be that his team improved by 10 wins, and he did it with a bunch of D-League talent, and the arguement for Nash could be that he lead his team into a championship contender (maybe), while at the beginning of the season, no-one had the Suns ranked anywhere near that, and, of course, he did it without Amare.

[J@3]

Nash made all four of those guys better this year.

So players don't develop? They stay the same in every way every season? This isn't NBA Live.

Marion: 2ppg better than last season, playing an extra 2mpg and taking 1 more shot per game
Diaw: Doubled his minutes
Kurt Thomas: 3ppg and 3rpg WORSE with the Suns in 9mpg less
Barbosa: 6ppg better with 10mpg and 5shpg more
Tskitizvilli: 3ppg better with 400% more minutes
Thomas: Points, shots, shooting percentage all down with Phoenix in 3mpg less playing 50 less games
Jones: 4ppg more in 6mpg, still shooting a bad %
Bell: 10mpg more results in a 2ppg increase
House: Was averaging over 10ppg in Charlotte, has dropped since then

Increase in minutes = increase in statistical production.

A quick look verifies that none of the Lakers made significant improvements this year compared to last

Kobe Bryant isn't the point guard, and looking at that Suns list there's really no improvements to write home about. Most are directly related to an increase in minutes, to be honest the only one that isn't is Boris Diaw but even he is seeing a dramatic increase in minutes.

Look at Gerald Wallace's stats now compared to his Sacramento days, do you want to credit Brevin Knight with "making him better"?

while the most of the Suns have made improvements of like 50%.

Lol.

Edit:

EDIT: Sorry, I missed your post. The Lakers may have improved some, but are you telling me that Kobe has made Kwame Brown something other than a bust? Or that Smush Parker doesn't really belong in the D-League?

Kwame is a young player, he's made himself what he is. There's also the coach, single players don't single handedly make guys better. That has to be the biggest myth in basketball these days.

Like I said, it's real close; the arguement for Kobe could be that his team improved by 10 wins, and he did it with a bunch of D-League talent, and the arguement for Nash could be that he lead his team into a championship contender (maybe), while at the beginning of the season, no-one had the Suns ranked anywhere near that, and, of course, he did it without Amare.

The Suns have been a bit of a surprise, but I don't think that's reason enough to make him back to back MVP. He'd join the likes of Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem, Moses Malone, Wilt Chamberlain etc... as a basketball fan, I don't want to see "Steve Nash" up there because he fit into a teams system like a glove. Besides, Shawn Marion in his own right is an MVP candidate. I think that's indication enough that people who wrote them off are idiots.

[GloveGuy]

It's time to stop thinking about how Nash got his team to such record. Jae's right -- Mike D'Antoni is the Suns MVP, he made the system; Nash is just a contingent part of it.

The fact is, whether you do it by distributing, or do it by taking all the shots, wins are wins. And in my opinion, Kobe getting his team to 44 wins with the help he had, is more impressive than Nash getting 53 wins with the supporting cast he had. Regardless of how it was done, it was done, and it was more impressive.

[Malfa]

i bet money that nash would get it

[Mayerhendrix]

Nash = MVP.
THAT IS BULL.

In the fast system that D'Antoni uses, any decent passing point guard would excel and be able to give the ball to his teammates. It just works for Nash. Lebron James should win the MVP. In the past people argued he couldn't hit gamewinners and play well down the stretch, he's changed all of that. Lebron's been consistent and a great player for his team.

[powerhoward85]

It's time to stop thinking about how Nash got his team to such record. Jae's right -- Mike D'Antoni is the Suns MVP, he made the system; Nash is just a contingent part of it.

Jordan should never wins MVP, Jackson designed the system.

"Jordan, hand out your mvps NOW!"



Anyway, I really think mvp should be related to the fact of the game. You are right to say he's good because he fits into the system. Kobe is still good even if his supporting cast is shit. But nevertheless, we talks about mvp, and if nash is in the right system, performing the right performance, outshining others, he deserves it. Kobe, if in the same situation, deserves it too.

Nevertheless, it is not kobe not deserving mvp, is just nash deserves more.

[gergerjai]

Nash = MVP.
THAT IS BULL.

In the fast system that D'Antoni uses, any decent passing point guard would excel and be able to give the ball to his teammates. It just works for Nash. Lebron James should win the MVP. In the past people argued he couldn't hit gamewinners and play well down the stretch, he's changed all of that. Lebron's been consistent and a great player for his team.

Yes he hit a game winner or two, like many of the other candidates, and so that turns him into an MVP?
His supporting cast is probably the best among nash, kobe and dirk, see Newble( you know why he stayed in the hospital) started today and they beat the Hawks.
when you look at how weak the eastern conference is his team record doesnt sound superior, yet his stats are not outstanding enough.

[Christopherson]

This is going to be a race decided by all of the 2nd 3rd and 4th place votes players get. Some people will leave LeBron off simply cause his team is in 4th place, same beef for Kobe. I dont think it is fair, but thats the way I see it happening. Some will vote for buillips based on the best player/best team factor. I dont think he should be in the running personally. My ballot would look like this:
1 Black Mamba lol
2 LBJ
3 Nash
4 Dirk Diggler
5 D. Wade

[benji]

If I get to choose. I vote for Dwyane Wade. Maybe LeBron, but I guess I stay with the guy I picked three days ago.

Who will win? Well, Brons' picked up steam late...and if ESPN's vote is any indication he will.

[gergerjai]

Wade wasnt playing that great in the 2nd half of the season, and with such talent in his team the record isnt satisfactory to many people.
I would put Nash-Dirk up front and Kobe tied with James, and then there come Wade, Brand and Billups.

[Axel]

He's a point guard, that's what he's supposed to do.

What is your point Jae? Kobe is a scoring guard, and it's his job to score. Are we going to discredit his scoring because it's its his job to score? No. Should we discredit Nash for setting up teammates because he's a PG and he's supposed to? No, the entire reason they're MVP candidates is because they do it above and beyond what normal players do.....

I just think Steve Nash is more valuable because he is more versatile. He can obviously set his teammates up, and their "system" has proven to be nothing without him in the lineup. They got crushed by the Warriors. But he is also a scorer, and an extremely efficient one at that. He is shooting the ball 6% better overall, 7% better from the line (number one in the league), and 8.5% better from 3pt range! He's still averaging 19 ppg while averaging 10.4 apg. Compare that with Kobe, and he has just 4.5 assists per game. Nash is playing all parts of offense well, whereas Kobe is doing just one.

Kobe's offensive efficiency is worse than in previous years, so I don't think he has played any differently than before.

Transcended the game? Does that include shooting the ball all the time?

This is just like baseball... people are so awed by huge numbers in the end that they manage to overlook how much inefficiency it took to get them. Players hit homeruns left and right, but nobody pays attention to how many damn strikeouts it it took to hit those home runs, and equally people are ignoring the number of shots and weak percentage it takes Kobe to put up 35 ppg.

[Fitzy]

i think itll be kobe

[Axel]

In the fast system that D'Antoni uses, any decent passing point guard would excel and be able to give the ball to his teammates. It just works for Nash.

It certainly hasn't worked for the Suns when they've played without him.

[gergerjai]

Nash is playing all parts of offense well

Added that he plays none part of defense well.
I think nash is more deserved to be the MVP simply because i though the Suns were over before the season--losing Amare, JJ and Q, but Axel, you gotta compare Kobe's fg% under multiple-teams and that of his wide open teammates, and also take a look at his eFG%/TS%.
His fg% is among the highest on the Lakers, and if he's not shooting that much, will his teammate get some open shots or will his team finish with 45 wins?

[J@3]

What is your point Jae? Kobe is a scoring guard, and it's his job to score. Are we going to discredit his scoring because it's its his job to score? No. Should we discredit Nash for setting up teammates because he's a PG and he's supposed to? No, the entire reason they're MVP candidates is because they do it above and beyond what normal players do.....

So why say things like "Kobe doesn't make his teammates better" if it's not his job? The point is, there are probably 3 or so other point guards in the NBA who could've stepped into Nash's slot at the Suns and had the same impact. You'll not find another SG in the entire league who could do that with the Lakers.

I just think Steve Nash is more valuable because he is more versatile.

How? He can only play 1 position and he couldn't defend a 6 year old, let alone any other player on the court. Kobe can play 1, 2 and 3... he's capable of defending all of those players, and if need be he can create for his teammates aswell.

He can obviously set his teammates up, and their "system" has proven to be nothing without him in the lineup.

Well duh, that's because he fits it perfectly. The Suns don't have another PG remotely similar to him, they're all pretty much SG's in PG's bodies.

He's still averaging 19 ppg while averaging 10.4 apg. Compare that with Kobe, and he has just 4.5 assists per game. Nash is playing all parts of offense well, whereas Kobe is doing just one.

I think I'd take Kobe's extra 16ppg over Nash's extra 6apg... but as you say, Kobe is a scoring guard so why compare him with a guy who's job it is to distribute?

Kobe's offensive efficiency is worse than in previous years, so I don't think he has played any differently than before.

Kobe:

Ranks #5 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking(27.77)
Ranks #6 in the NBA in Total Efficiency Points(2194.0)

Nash:

Ranks #12 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking(24.0)
Ranks #12 in the NBA in Total Efficiency Points(1872.0)

Apart from that, Kobe's shooting percentages are higher then they have been for the last 2 seasons. I don't really know where you're coming from with that.

Transcended the game? Does that include shooting the ball all the time?

If that's what he needs to do, yes. You can't act like the situations are identical, Kobe shares the ball the Lakers lose. It's that simple. I didn't hear people bagging Nash for scoring 48 against Dallas in the play-offs, in a game they lost.

This is just like baseball... people are so awed by huge numbers in the end that they manage to overlook how much inefficiency it took to get them

See efficiency ratings above. You're acting like Kobe is shooting 42%... which funnily enough, is what Iverson was shooting when he won the MVP.

and equally people are ignoring the number of shots and weak percentage it takes Kobe to put up 35 ppg.

No one's ignoring it, but I'll take 35ppg at 45% plus a play-off spot. Jordan shot 46% in 1998 when he won the MVP award, 23% from 3 and only shot 4 shots per game less than Kobe while averaging 7ppg less. Want to take it off him and give it to Gary Payton or Tim Hardaway?

It certainly hasn't worked for the Suns when they've played without him.

That's because they don't have a decent passing point guard, unless you want to count Andre Barrett when he was there