Proof that Steve Nash is the MVP..

[TRUball]

(unlike Phoenix where EVERYTHING is there to suit Steve Nash, that's why they fall apart when he's gone).

Yeah... except in the last game against the Lakers they made there run with Nash on the bench.

[samson1028]

What the hell? I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the team is built around Wade and Shaq, not just Wade (unlike Phoenix where EVERYTHING is there to suit Steve Nash, that's why they fall apart when he's gone).

That's the point. Miami is not build around Wade. Meaning that compare to Suns, which build around Nash, Wade isnt performance as well in Miami as Nash in Suns. You can say he have the potential, you can say if shaq is gone he can perform even better, you can say he can carry the team to the final w/o shaq. BUT when looking to the mvp award, which is a award given to a player's performance during the season, we look at facts, not how much potential or whatever thing he has. And in the fact, Nash's performance in this season is better than Wade.

Wade made the play-offs without Shaq in his rookie season, what have you been smoking?

Nash make the playoff too w/o Amare, with 50+ wins, how about that?

Anyway, we are talking about the current season, can you dont make comparison with the past.

Why not say Wade deserve mvp because he played well before he joined nba. [/b]

[BIG GREEN]

Cause we're talking about the nba not college?

[J@3]

That's the point. Miami is not build around Wade. Meaning that compare to Suns, which build around Nash, Wade isnt performance as well in Miami as Nash in Suns. And in the fact, Nash's performance in this season is better than Wade.

Are your posts confusing or what... THINK MAN U MUST THINK BEFORE POST!!

Anyway... I have no idea how you've decided Wade isn't performing as well in Miami as Nash is in Phoenix because the team isn't built around Wade. What if Amare comes back next season and averages 30/10? Will that mean he isn't performing as well as Nash because the team will still be built around Nash?

You can say he have the potential, you can say if shaq is gone he can perform even better, you can say he can carry the team to the final w/o shaq.

But I never said that. Where are you pulling this stuff?

BUT when looking to the mvp award, which is a award given to a player's performance during the season, we look at facts, not how much potential or whatever thing he has.

No one's talking about potential, are you replying to the right thread?

Nash make the playoff too w/o Amare, with 50+ wins, how about that?

Have you heard of "Shawn Marion"?

Anyway, we are talking about the current season, can you dont make comparison with the past.

What the hell? It's relevant, I can will make comparison with the past.

Why not say Wade deserve mvp because he played well before he joined nba.

So his 27ppg, 6rpg and 7apg while LEADING the team to 50 wins isn't good enough for you at this moment?

[Matt]

good to be back.....

now, let's check Nash's record against the 2 best PG's in the league....Kidd & Billups.....

Kidd....against Kidd he averaged 13.5ppg, 3rpg, 5.5apg and 1.5topg on 47.8% shooting. Record 1-1. (*note* in Kidds win, Nash went scoreless)

Billups....15.5ppg, 1rpg, 8.5apg and 4TO/pg on 35.7% shooting.

what did Billups do however....against Nash he averaged 31ppg, 2.5rpg, 8apg and 3TO/pg on 55% shooting. (2 wins might i add)

So, if Nash can't outperform elite players at his own position why should he be MVP? Perhaps if his team wasn't 12 games behind the leagues leader then i might see a case. IMO, it should go to someone on an elite team.....that being a 60+ win team. We'll have 3 of those.

[samson1028]

Are your posts confusing or what... THINK MAN U MUST THINK BEFORE POST!!

If you cant read, can always ask for reference.

Anyway... I have no idea how you've decided Wade isn't performing as well in Miami as Nash is in Phoenix because the team isn't built around Wade. What if Amare comes back next season and averages 30/10? Will that mean he isn't performing as well as Nash because the team will still be built around Nash?

a) I said wade isnt performing as well because from the offensive end, it is very obvious suns clicks more than miami.
b) You are the one said the suns is build around nash. And now you are saying even Amare comes back i'll still say nash is better because the team is build around nash. What are you talking about man!

But I never said that. Where are you pulling this stuff?

From what you've said.

No one's talking about potential, are you replying to the right thread?

You are. In your post, you said miami isn't build around wade unlike suns is in nash's case. This does sound to me that you are trying to say if miami is build around wade, wade can have more room to perform and improve than now.

Have you heard of "Shawn Marion"?

Waht a good question, indeed i have. But Marion is not a player who is good at creating hiss own shot. Most of the time is a pass from others, especially nash. It limits the level of help to be given to nash because many others can do so too, except marion is much better in doing that.

What the hell? It's relevant, I can will make comparison with the past.

When we are talking about who should win the current year mvp, why you keep bringing up the past.

So his 27ppg, 6rpg and 7apg while LEADING the team to 50 wins isn't good enough for you at this moment?

Hey he can have better state if shaq is out for the whole season.
















But should end up with 40+ wins.

To matt, i get your point, and though i still support nash to win, it's fine even if a piston wins, because i think they play very well this year too. Especially billups.

[BIG GREEN]

You make good points but your english is lacking. It's hard to understand you...but still...i'll say lebron deserves mvp JUST as much as nash.

[samson1028]

You make good points but your english is lacking. It's hard to understand you...

Sorry, my bad.

but still...i'll say lebron deserves mvp JUST as much as nash.

O ya, i've left him out. As far as Jae says wade deserve mvp with his 27ppg 6rpg 7apg while leading miami to 50+ wins, Lebron is 32ppg 7rpg 7apg while leading Cavs to 40+ may be 50+ wins w/o a big man like shaq to help him, he deserve more mvp attention.

[J@3]

a) I said wade isnt performing as well because from the offensive end, it is very obvious suns clicks more than miami.

Wade is not a PG, Nash is. It's not Wade's job to make the team "click".

b) You are the one said the suns is build around nash. And now you are saying even Amare comes back i'll still say nash is better because the team is build around nash. What are you talking about man!

I'm asking if you would say that, sarcastically. I'm guessing that got lost in translation.

You are. In your post, you said miami isn't build around wade unlike suns is in nash's case. This does sound to me that you are trying to say if miami is build around wade, wade can have more room to perform and improve than now.

Well you assume wrong, I'm stating the facts as you so love to do. I'm not talking about potential so stop looking for hidden meanings in what I'm saying.

Waht a good question, indeed i have. But Marion is not a player who is good at creating hiss own shot. Most of the time is a pass from others, especially nash. It limits the level of help to be given to nash because many others can do so too, except marion is much better in doing that.

Shawn Marion was a constant 19ppg guy before Nash arrived, it's not like he's some scrub who needs to be force fed points.

When we are talking about who should win the current year mvp, why you keep bringing up the past.

Because it's relevant. If you can't understand that maybe you shouldn't be trying to debate.

O ya, i've left him out. As far as Jae says wade deserve mvp with his 27ppg 6rpg 7apg while leading miami to 50+ wins, Lebron is 32ppg 7rpg 7apg while leading Cavs to 40+ may be 50+ wins w/o a big man like shaq to help him, he deserve more mvp attention.

How annoying, I'm not advocating Wade for MVP at all. My entire argument was that Wade shouldn't be out of the MVP running purely because Keith Frazier doesn't consider Miami a title contender. I don't think he should be the MVP, I've never said he should be the MVP and I won't say he should be the MVP.

[samson1028]

Wade is not a PG, Nash is. It's not Wade's job to make the team "click".

What do you mean? Clicking a team's play is all player's responsibility.

I'm asking if you would say that, sarcastically. I'm guessing that got lost in translation.

Indeed i am.

Well you assume wrong, I'm stating the facts as you so love to do. I'm not talking about potential so stop looking for hidden meanings in what I'm saying.

Ok, you are stating facts.

Nash is a foreigner. Yao is a foreigner.

Hey i'm stating the facts too, but are they related to the topic??

Guess what i'm trying to mean.

Shawn Marion was a constant 19ppg guy before Nash arrived, it's not like he's some scrub who needs to be force fed points.

Well like you've said, it's before nash arrived. His role has change under the new system. I wont say he's no good, like i said in my pervious posts, he's good, but his role now is not to create his own shot as much.

Because it's relevant. If you can't understand that maybe you shouldn't be trying to debate.

Hey if why not norminate wade for Most Improve Player award, he plays good in the past, he plays better now.

How annoying, I'm not advocating Wade for MVP at all. My entire argument was that Wade shouldn't be out of the MVP running purely because Keith Frazier doesn't consider Miami a title contender. I don't think he should be the MVP, I've never said he should be the MVP and I won't say he should be the MVP.

Well i suppose many who read your post thinks that way.

Anyway, being or not a title contender does affect the voting. Because it's relevant. If you can't understand that maybe you shouldn't be trying to debate.

It's fine if you think nobody knows who's a true title contender now, let's use the term dominate team. Miami isnt a dominate team, it's a 2004 version of lakers-alike. The team is too unbalance.

[Fresh8]

Let's see your valuables, sirBy Ric Bucher
ESPN The Magazine

Anybody else sick of the MVP race already? I haven't even filled out my ballot and I don't want to read, hear or say another word on the subject. Of course, being the kind of guy who finds certain kinds of self-inflicted pain interesting, I volunteered to write a column on the subject.
This year, it seems, the MVP conversation began two weeks into the season and has never let up. Remember when Elton Brand was a frontrunner back in December? Didn't even Andrei Kirilenko get a mention after the Jazz bolted to that 4-2 start? Or was that his wife after ESPN The Magazine revealed her once-a-year-freebie for Andrei?

My point being: All the fuss about who is deserving and who isn't and what makes for an MVP and what doesn't is akin to debating what length of skirt turns a girl from sexy to a slut. No one's ever defined it and know one ever will. You eyeball the evidence and decide based on your personal tastes.

From all the conversations I've had on the MVP subject -- and, trust me, I've had five for every comment I've made on air or online -- MVP has a variety of meanings. For some, it's MEP, or the league's Most Excellent Player. For others, it's MVPOAWT, or Most Valuable Player on a Winning Team. Here's a popular one: MSIPOATTWBTE or Most Statistically Impressive Player on a Team That Was Better Than Expected. Generally, the easiest and safest pick is MVPOTBT: Most Valuable Player on the Best Team. This year has brought a new one to the mix: MDPDTSOATTFS, or Most Dominant Player Down the Stretch on a Team that Finished Strong. And, finally, there's MIP, or Most Indispensable Player, as in the guy whose team would absolutely fall apart without him.

If there's a reason to be particularly fed up with all the Let-me-tell-you-who-the-MVP chatter is this season, other than it's been going on all season and continues to mutate, that's precisely it. Without first defining MVP, and acknowledging that it's your definition and not necessarily anyone else's, it's like raging at your friends for not agreeing with your choice of Air Jordans.

So, for what it's worth, here are my choices for all above. And, yes, here's the disclaimer: these are my definitions. Acronymites, feel free to create your own, order your own hardware and have your own happy little award ceremony. The guy who eventually wins the real deal will not feel slighted, I promise you.

MEP --Kobe Bryant.

MVPOAWT -- Dwyane Wade.

MSIPOATTWBTE -- Elton Brand.

MVPOTBT -- Chauncey Billups.

MDPDTSOATTFS -- LeBron James.

MIP -- Steve Nash.

Of course, I may just ask my three-year-old daughter Chance to draw five stick figures -- she just learned how -- and make my selections based on which NBA players they most resemble. The problem with that is, having seen her work, I might have to explain to the league office how Stromile Swift and Francisco Elson made my ballot.

And when it comes to self-inflicted pain, you have to draw the line somewhere.

[benji]

I refuse to believe the Lakers, Cavs or Heat wouldn't have absolutely fallen apart this season without Kobe, LeBron and Wade. Or that a team like Minny wouldn't be even worse without KG. And would we even be talking about the Spurs or Mavericks if they didn't have their big guys. I'd say Ric Bucher can suck me but I don't want him anywhere near me.

Marion's role was never to really create his shot as much, 68% of his attempts in 02-03 were assisted, even in 03-04 when they had Barbosa at the point for much of the year it was still 60%. Last two years has been 73% and 77%. He's shooting worse on jumpers the last two years than he did in 02-03 with Marbury, even though more are assisted.

Like I said in the other thread, Nash's best asset is that he stops other players from dribbling. In a player like Marion's case this is great because he can't dribble.

Wade's job isn't to stop other guys from dribbling or set them up shots, it's to drop 30 points on 58% shooting while blowing past anyone who dares challenge him. The guy's a beast at drawing fouls. Compared to Nash he's drawn 328 to 76, while firing up 1710 shots to 1076.

it's a 2004 version of lakers-alike

You mean the team that went to the Finals and was 33-9 with Malone? Sounds like a contender and dominant team to me.

[BIG GREEN]

Let's see your valuables, sirBy Ric Bucher
ESPN The Magazine

Anybody else sick of the MVP race already? I haven't even filled out my ballot and I don't want to read, hear or say another word on the subject. Of course, being the kind of guy who finds certain kinds of self-inflicted pain interesting, I volunteered to write a column on the subject.
This year, it seems, the MVP conversation began two weeks into the season and has never let up. Remember when Elton Brand was a frontrunner back in December? Didn't even Andrei Kirilenko get a mention after the Jazz bolted to that 4-2 start? Or was that his wife after ESPN The Magazine revealed her once-a-year-freebie for Andrei?

My point being: All the fuss about who is deserving and who isn't and what makes for an MVP and what doesn't is akin to debating what length of skirt turns a girl from sexy to a slut. No one's ever defined it and know one ever will. You eyeball the evidence and decide based on your personal tastes.

From all the conversations I've had on the MVP subject -- and, trust me, I've had five for every comment I've made on air or online -- MVP has a variety of meanings. For some, it's MEP, or the league's Most Excellent Player. For others, it's MVPOAWT, or Most Valuable Player on a Winning Team. Here's a popular one: MSIPOATTWBTE or Most Statistically Impressive Player on a Team That Was Better Than Expected. Generally, the easiest and safest pick is MVPOTBT: Most Valuable Player on the Best Team. This year has brought a new one to the mix: MDPDTSOATTFS, or Most Dominant Player Down the Stretch on a Team that Finished Strong. And, finally, there's MIP, or Most Indispensable Player, as in the guy whose team would absolutely fall apart without him.

If there's a reason to be particularly fed up with all the Let-me-tell-you-who-the-MVP chatter is this season, other than it's been going on all season and continues to mutate, that's precisely it. Without first defining MVP, and acknowledging that it's your definition and not necessarily anyone else's, it's like raging at your friends for not agreeing with your choice of Air Jordans.

So, for what it's worth, here are my choices for all above. And, yes, here's the disclaimer: these are my definitions. Acronymites, feel free to create your own, order your own hardware and have your own happy little award ceremony. The guy who eventually wins the real deal will not feel slighted, I promise you.

MEP --Kobe Bryant.

MVPOAWT -- Dwyane Wade.

MSIPOATTWBTE -- Elton Brand.

MVPOTBT -- Chauncey Billups.

MDPDTSOATTFS -- LeBron James.

MIP -- Steve Nash.

Of course, I may just ask my three-year-old daughter Chance to draw five stick figures -- she just learned how -- and make my selections based on which NBA players they most resemble. The problem with that is, having seen her work, I might have to explain to the league office how Stromile Swift and Francisco Elson made my ballot.

And when it comes to self-inflicted pain, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Heh..i'm amazed that the whole basketball world is having the exact same thoughts we are. It's like that fucker took the words out of my head and wrote it down..i love it.

[artestfighttrainer]

Steve Nash 05-06 MVP Period unless he gets deported back to Canada.