Proof that Steve Nash is the MVP..

by **benji** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:34 pm

Well Diaw had 22pts 12rebs 6asts tonight proving he is MVP...or is it Marion for getting 22-6-6? Or maybe Nash for 13pts and 11asts?

They might have lost but I'm over that because Nash also made the Sonics better players. His greatness is infectious.

Just like he won the MVP for improving both Phoenix and Dallas last season, so he should win it again. And next year too. The guy is better than Jordan ever was, you add Nash to the Suns they go from 29 wins to 60. Adding Jordan to the Bulls took the team from 27 to 38. Man, Jordan was such a bust, they should've just waited and gotten Nash a decade later.

Nash is so good, if you put KevC on the team he'd average 10 points a game. And he's Korean (not Asian) for darkosakes!

by **Keith Frazier** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:56 pm

DB wrote:
John stockton averaged 17 points on 50% shooting & 14 assists and 3 steals per game for a big part of his career. Kevin Johnson 20 pts 10 assists 50% type of player, tim hardaway 22 points 10 assists,...and many others who have zero MVP's. They had great seasons and great playoff games...Nash aint that special. But Kobe and Lebron are tough...

Nash didn't have Karl Malone to depend on. Malone had a HUGE impact on the game in all aspects. Its not even close when you compare Malone (maybe the greatest PF ever) to anyone of Nash's teammates. Stockton had it easy and could take a break even in the playmaking aspect as Malone was a very very good passer.

by **Keith Frazier** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:56 pm

When it comes to the MVP, I have a saying:

"Stats don't mean a thing unless you're favorites for the Ring."

The Lakers and Cavs are not favorites for the Ring. See, I'm not talking about top 10 favorites, I mean the real cream.

So regardless of whether you average 30 or 35. its not important unless you play for the Pistons, Spurs, Suns, Mavs.

I would have said Heat a few months ago but I just don't see them winning the title now (bye bye Wade). Nash vs Dirk with Nash winning.

Bluesky · by **Andrew** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:00 pm

Just a friendly request Keith, if you've got something to add to your original post it's preferable if you edit the original one rather than making another post straight afterwards. There's certainly exceptions, it's fine if you're responding to a post that was made while you were typing up your original reply or if you're bringing up an old thread and you happened to be the last one who posted in it, but in that case there's no reason for two posts. So in the future, please try to avoid double posting by editing your original post if you've got something extra to add. Thanks. (Y)

by **J@3** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:04 pm

Keith Frazier wrote:When it comes to the MVP, I have a saying:

"Stats don't mean a thing unless you're favorites for the Ring."

The Lakers and Cavs are not favorites for the Ring. See, I'm not talking about top 10 favorites, I mean the real cream.

So regardless of whether you average 30 or 35. its not important unless you play for the Pistons, Spurs, Suns, Mavs.

I would have said Heat a few months ago but I just don't see them winning the title now (bye bye Wade). Nash vs Dirk with Nash winning.

By your logic, the only teams in the entire NBA who can have MVP candidates are "Pistons, Spurs, Suns, Mavs."... this is a direct byproduct of the lack of NBA coverage in Australia. Hopefully one day you'll be able to download games (Y)

I would have said Heat a few months ago but I just don't see them winning the title now (bye bye Wade). Nash vs Dirk with Nash winning.

Maybe all of the journalists who vote on these things should consult you on who you consider to be title contenders before they vote. My God, are you serious with all of this? What if the Heat do win the title? Are you going to take the award off Nash and give it to Wade, since the only reason according to you he's not a candidate is that you don't consider his team a contender anymore?

by **samson1028** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:30 pm

Jae wrote:
Maybe all of the journalists who vote on these things should consult you on who you consider to be title contenders before they vote. My God, are you serious with all of this? What if the Heat do win the title? Are you going to take the award off Nash and give it to Wade, since the only reason according to you he's not a candidate is that you don't consider his team a contender anymore?

Well season mvp is meant for the performance of the season. In the end who wins the title is another issue. Journalists look at the performance of the teams in the season. The team with better record should naturally get more attention. This sounds logical, surely you don't want to hear headlines like "MVP kobe, drops another 81, but Lakers is out of the playoff", "Despite 51 by MVP LeBorn, Caves loses" or "MVP Wade, droped 45, Heat lose to Suns".

Well i know nash do sometimes have these kind of headlines too. But Suns is always winning, so it is not often. But if Kobe or LeBorn wins it, these headlines would appear often next year, except for some unexpected offseason movement.

by **Fenix** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:34 pm

I really think Nash lost an edge in the second half of the season and that D'Antoni's system is even more important for Suns' success than we know. I think that even without Nash, this is still a 40 win team. Without Kobe or Lebron, Lakers and Cavs would be in a good position to win the lottery.

by **J@3** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:35 pm

Well season mvp is meant for the performance of the season. In the end who wins the title is another issue.

That's sort of the point I was raising. The Suns are 50-26, the Heat are 50-27... so basically 1 loss behind, yet he's written Wade off as an MVP candidate because the Heat (and their 1 game behind) aren't a title contender in his opinion.

@VanK... I had suspected that too, I might see if the numbers reflect it. Same goes for Billups.

Edit: His numbers have dropped all round, turnovers are about the same but he's averaging roughly 1ppg and 3apg less in the 2nd half of the season. The Suns have also lost more games in the 2nd half of the season.

by **samson1028** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:46 pm

Hmmm, I agree Jae to a extent. Is right that he shouldn't just says Heat is out of the title, it's still the top 6 teams to be a contender (nets has just joined into the mix).

But sometimes the record is somehow affected geographically. Heat is in a weaker East Confrence, it plays more with weaker Eastern teams. No disrespect for the Heats, but i think this contributes to the records. In fact sometimes the heat's offence looks lose. They dont seems to know where to run the ball, etc.

This reply is not really link to the thread, but jus to reply Jae's post.

by **J@3** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:56 pm

I think alot of it depends on the actual team... some teams in the East might have inflated records based on where they're playing, but you can't really rule out a team with guys like Wade and Shaq. If their offensive game is a bit queer (which isn't surprising considering they play guys like Antoine Walker) they're still only a loss behind Phoenix. I get the feeling the Suns have shown their hand this season, teams like Miami and San Antonio still have something left I reckon.

by **Keith Frazier** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:45 pm

Jae wrote:
Keith Frazier wrote:When it comes to the MVP, I have a saying:

"Stats don't mean a thing unless you're favorites for the Ring."

The Lakers and Cavs are not favorites for the Ring. See, I'm not talking about top 10 favorites, I mean the real cream.

So regardless of whether you average 30 or 35. its not important unless you play for the Pistons, Spurs, Suns, Mavs.

I would have said Heat a few months ago but I just don't see them winning the title now (bye bye Wade). Nash vs Dirk with Nash winning.

By your logic, the only teams in the entire NBA who can have MVP candidates are "Pistons, Spurs, Suns, Mavs."... this is a direct byproduct of the lack of NBA coverage in Australia. Hopefully one day you'll be able to download games

I would have said Heat a few months ago but I just don't see them winning the title now (bye bye Wade). Nash vs Dirk with Nash winning.

Maybe all of the journalists who vote on these things should consult you on who you consider to be title contenders before they vote. My God, are you serious with all of this? What if the Heat do win the title? Are you going to take the award off Nash and give it to Wade, since the only reason according to you he's not a candidate is that you don't consider his team a contender anymore?

Its worth buying yourself a good satellite dish. It looks expensive at first but I promise you won't regret it in the long-run. I can see you need it.

If the Heat win the title then it will be unexpected. When is the last time a team unexpectedly won the title? Detroit right? The MVP that year was Tim Duncan, correct? Well I think we can all still appreciate that he was the deserved MVP of that year, just as we would appreciate that Nash is the legit MVP this year even if the Heat win the Championship. Nash has a weaker team this year, better individual production and its simply a weak field because the other championship favorites have a wealth of talent compared to the Suns. And specifically Wade won't win it while Shaq is still a top 2 center in the NBA.

by **J@3** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:53 pm

If the Heat win the title then it will be unexpected. When is the last time a team unexpectedly won the title? Detroit right? The MVP that year was Tim Duncan, correct? Well I think we can all still appreciate that he was the deserved MVP of that year, just as we would appreciate that Nash is the legit MVP this year even if the Heat win the Championship. Nash has a weaker team this year, better individual production and its simply a weak field because the other championship favorites have a wealth of talent compared to the Suns. And specifically Wade won't win it while Shaq is still a top 2 center in the NBA.

What are you dribbling about? Since when are Phoenix a championship favourite to start with? Ignoring the fact that they're obviously your favourite team (massive fan est. last season I'm guessing) most (knowledgeable) people place Detroit, San Antonio, Dallas and probably Miami above them. There's nothing but question marks over the Suns, they couldn't get it done last season with their best player still in the line-up... now they are back and Amare's not, Nash is declining as the season goes on and the rest of the team are unproven in the play-offs. Not to mention their record isn't a stand out in the league, so once again, when did they become one of the favourites?

by **Keith Frazier** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:11 pm

Jae wrote:
If the Heat win the title then it will be unexpected. When is the last time a team unexpectedly won the title? Detroit right? The MVP that year was Tim Duncan, correct? Well I think we can all still appreciate that he was the deserved MVP of that year, just as we would appreciate that Nash is the legit MVP this year even if the Heat win the Championship. Nash has a weaker team this year, better individual production and its simply a weak field because the other championship favorites have a wealth of talent compared to the Suns. And specifically Wade won't win it while Shaq is still a top 2 center in the NBA.

What are you dribbling about? Since when are Phoenix a championship favourite to start with? Ignoring the fact that they're obviously your favourite team (massive fan est. last season I'm guessing) most (knowledgeable) people place Detroit, San Antonio, Dallas and probably Miami above them. There's nothing but question marks over the Suns, they couldn't get it done last season with their best player still in the line-up... now they are back and Amare's not, Nash is declining as the season goes on and the rest of the team are unproven in the play-offs. Not to mention their record isn't a stand out in the league, so once again, when did they become one of the favourites?

Dribbling? I don't respond to this kind of reference. Its called an opinion, and by the way Phoenix are far from my favorite team, not even in my 3 favorite teams. Detroit share the wealth far too much to present an MVP. The Spurs are cancelling eachother out of the MVP race the same way Shaq and Kobe did in LA. And Dirk will finish top 2 in MVP voting, but compare the talent level in Phoenix to any of the top teams and you have your clear MVP, just like last season though even more clear now. This is the last time I'm responding to this subject as its obviously bringing out the worst in some of you ladies, something I'm not into.

by **J@3** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:16 pm

and by the way Phoenix are far from my favorite team, not even in my 3 favorite teams.

Could've fooled me, since 13 of your 14 posts here are about Steve Nash and the Phoenix Suns.

Nash was far from the clear MVP last season.. not even remotely close. Why does he get credit for things he doesn't control, like the natural development of young players talents and a GM who finds the best players for that particular team/system?

by **samson1028** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:47 pm

Jae wrote:
What are you dribbling about? Since when are Phoenix a championship favourite to start with? Ignoring the fact that they're obviously your favourite team (massive fan est. last season I'm guessing) most (knowledgeable) people place Detroit, San Antonio, Dallas and probably Miami above them. There's nothing but question marks over the Suns, they couldn't get it done last season with their best player still in the line-up... now they are back and Amare's not, Nash is declining as the season goes on and the rest of the team are unproven in the play-offs. Not to mention their record isn't a stand out in the league, so once again, when did they become one of the favourites?

Well i do agree that nash is declining. But hav u been watching nba?

Suns is always a contender, and is one of the favourites, above heats.

the Heats, after the poor start and now with the injuries to key players like william and Mouring, what makes you think that they are a better contender than the suns.

By the way, the 2 meetings between them have the suns leading 2-0.

Sure nash is declining as the season goes, shaq is declining as the year goes, all he said is "until playoff time, i'll be more focus" kind of stuff. With no disrespect for shaq, is that how a title contender's attitude should be? With this attitude will the Heat really wins?

Kurt is expected to be back like in the second round, and by then their paint defence should be better.

by **J@3** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:15 pm

Well i do agree that nash is declining. But hav u been watching nba?

So you say the supposed MVP is declining, yet they are still more of a contender than someone like Miami who have not only an MVP candidate of their own, but the 2nd best big man in the NBA? The Suns have been in trouble lately. The Heat players you mentioned will be back come the play-offs (Williams for sure, I'm not sure of the extent of Mourning or Posey's injuries).

As far as the Suns run in the play-offs, they might have beaten Miami twice in the regular season but they wouldn't meet unless both, by some miracle, make the finals. Phoenix have lost to Memphis twice this season, the Clippers have beaten them twice, Denver's beaten them once, the Spurs have beaten them three times, Sacramento's beaten them, Dallas has beaten them twice ... the only West play-off team they have a perfect record over is the Lakers, and God knows what Kobe will pull off in the post season.

For neatness sakes, and a rough comparison.

Suns record vs. Western Conference play-off teams: 11-12, 8-11 minus the Lakers and the Kings (7th/8th seed)

Suns record vs. Top 4 East Play-Off teams: 5-4 (2-4 minus Miami)

Miami record vs. Eastern Conference play-off teams: 14-11 (1-3 vs NJ, 1-2 Indiana (when Artest was with them) 2-2 Cleveland)

Miami record vs Top 4 West Play-Off teams: 0-8

What does this tell you? The odds are that Phoenix will have more trouble getting through their own conference play-offs, and once they do they're a 50/50 chance of beating whoever they come up against (unless it's Detroit)... Miami look more likely to get through their own conference but will most likely get drilled by whoever they face... doesn't that cancel each other out?

by **Jugs** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:18 pm

Why aren't you guys bringing in the Mavericks and Dirk Nowitzki in the contender/MVP discussion.

Dirk should be MVP this season :headbang:

by **samson1028** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:55 pm

Jae wrote:So you say the supposed MVP is declining, yet they are still more of a contender than someone like Miami who have not only an MVP candidate of their own, but the 2nd best big man in the NBA? The Suns have been in trouble lately.

O ya, you're bringing up the big man. With Amare out for the whole season except 3 games, nash still manage to lead suns to 50 wins. Can wade lead miami to 50 wins do if shaq is out the whole season but only play 3 games? Think hard. :lol:

And like i said in pervious post, Miami can win 50 because they're in a weaker confrence.

In addition, true nash is declining, so what? He has been great throughout the season except lately. Wade, is he great the whole season? No way. Is hard to stay throughout the whole season, there will be times of declining and inclining.

Pls think hard before you reply. Man! Think hard.

In addition, Dirk is worth mentioning, in my opinion, he would be above wade for sure, as he's the best player in his team and no single dominate side kick is in his team, the other players are well balanced.

by **J@3** on Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:10 pm

O ya, you're bringing up the big man. With Amare out for the whole season except 3 games, nash still manage to lead suns to 50 wins. Can wade lead miami to 50 wins do if shaq is out the whole season but only play 3 games?

Since you apparentely watch basketball, I'm guessing you realise the differences in Wade and Nash... apart from the fact that they don't play the same position, Wade hasn't had his team/playing style custom built around him.

In addition, true nash is declining, so what? He has been great throughout the season except lately. Wade, is he great the whole season? No way. Is hard to stay throughout the whole season, there will be times of declining and inclining.

Nash is 31 or 32 years old, Wade is 23. The odds of Wade tiring as the season goes on are slim, especially since he does have Shaq to lessen the load somewhat. Not to mention with Amare gone all season Nash has had to shoulder more of a burden on the court, he's done it well but the numbers would suggest it's starting to catch up with him.

Pls think hard before you reply. Man! Think hard.

The fact that I've had to read everything you've posted 4 or 5 times to decipher exactly what you're trying to say before replying is a fairly good indication that maybe you should take your own advice.

by **benji** on Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:40 am

Wade is one of those insane players like Jordan who produces at the same rate in the playoffs as he does in the regular season.

You have to consider the Heat a contender because of the fact that they play in an easy conference. Like the Pistons in 2004 (Garnett won MVP that year btw) you can pretty much romp though a decrepit conference if someone good gets injured and only face one tough series in the Finals. While any West team in the Finals will have at least one VERY TOUGH series and probably another tough series or two.

Can Nash lead the Suns to 50 wins with Marion playing only three games too? Because that's a more fair comparison.

Nash always tires out. He's done it every single season, that's why the Mavericks stopped playing him near the end of their seasons and why the Suns held his minutes down a lot last season.

Nash, like Billups shares the wealth too much to be MVP. Marion's a superstar sitting right next to him. I would analyze a teams top five men, or top eight if I was actually voting. But for now I'm content looking at the top two guys multiplying their PER by their minutes played and subtracting one from the other. As it stood a few weeks ago:

LeBron-Zydrunas: +34790
Wade-Shaq: +33271
Kobe-Odom: +31192
Dirk-Terry: +26730
Brand-Cassell: +26308
Gasol-Battier: +23593
Arenas-Jamison: +16251
Anthony-Miller: +12204
Billups-Hamilton: +9964
Marion-Nash: +7207

Of course, I'd also multiply by pythag win % since I'm in favor of the "best player with the least support on the best team" factor. If a guy has a 40,000 PER*Min difference over the next guy but plays for the Hawks I don't think that's as big of deal as say Bron or Dirk there.

by **Axel** on Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:16 am

Jae wrote:By your logic, the only teams in the entire NBA who can have MVP candidates are "Pistons, Spurs, Suns, Mavs."... this is a direct byproduct of the lack of NBA coverage in Australia. Hopefully one day you'll be able to download games Thumbs Up

No, actually it's by the logic that previous MVP winners have always came from dominant teams. You can deny that and call it an opinion, but the winners have clearly came from top tier teams.

by **benji** on Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:22 am

But there are examples of players who have come from not-so-dominant teams. Moses Malone and Bob McAdoo come to mind. Of course once the writers and broadcasters started picking instead of the players they'd just take whatever the "story" is or whoever gave them the best high five.

by **Kbryant8** on Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:03 am

Its_asdf wrote:
Kbryant8 wrote:ffsh,Nash going to get that cause fucking media is that thing what chooses MVP.Kobe should have that title.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say because your sentence would make an English teacher gouge his eyes out and commit suicide, but Kobe has been getting at least some good media attention.

Some people has been very impressed with his one-man show type of playing, while others use this to paint a picture that he's a selfish player. He has gotten a lot of media attention, but its mostly for his amazing scoring ability, not really to paint the picture of him as a hog.

Well.i love you too

by **samson1028** on Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:20 am

Jae wrote:Wade hasn't had his team/playing style custom built around him.

Sound like you're admiting that wade isnt playing as good? Well you've been thinking i must say.

Nash is 31 or 32 years old, Wade is 23. The odds of Wade tiring as the season goes on are slim, especially since he does have Shaq to lessen the load somewhat. Not to mention with Amare gone all season Nash has had to shoulder more of a burden on the court, he's done it well but the numbers would suggest it's starting to catch up with him.

Well that add up to what has mentioned above. Wade can play at this level is because of having shaq there for him. While nash don't have Amare there for him.

The fact that I've had to read everything you've posted 4 or 5 times to decipher exactly what you're trying to say before replying is a fairly good indication that maybe you should take your own advice.

by **J@3** on Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:46 pm

Sound like you're admiting that wade isnt playing as good? Well you've been thinking i must say.

What the hell? I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the team is built around Wade and Shaq, not just Wade (unlike Phoenix where EVERYTHING is there to suit Steve Nash, that's why they fall apart when he's gone).

Well that add up to what has mentioned above. Wade can play at this level is because of having shaq there for him. While nash don't have Amare there for him.

Wade made the play-offs without Shaq in his rookie season, what have you been smoking?

Proof that Steve Nash is the MVP..

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