Move Over, Kobe...Prince is in Da House!!!

[maes]

That article is whacked.

How can anyone hold KIDS to a higher moral standard than PROFESSIONAL ADULTS in the same activity?

That's like blaming a kid for smoking when he grows up parents that shoot heroine and smoke crack.

[Andrew]

Andrew I think you need to put yourself into Prince's teammates' shoes. How would you like it if you were up by 50, with very little chance of losing, yet you're still on the bench like always, watching your teammate score 100+ points? The other team is probably not trying very hard at this point, and you've seen little action this season behind Ms. Prince, yet you're still on the bench. Wouldn't that make you upset?

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying it's a plan a coach should employ game in and game out, I'm not saying it was good for the teammates. I'm disagreeing with Vera Springer's take on the matter. She's not talking about Prince's teammates get the short end of the stick.

I'll go back to what she said:

"She didn't earn this," Springer said. "It was like picking on a handicapped person." Springer didn't blame Prince, though.

"It's nothing against Epiphanny. I have great admiration for her," Springer said. "This was an adult decision. Why would you do this against a team like ours?"

We'll dismiss the comparison between sports and mocking a handicapped person and leave that for the "politically correct" police. We could even dismiss the fact Vera Springer insulted her own team - which surely sends the wrong message and can't be good for morale - by denouncing them, probably unintentionally.

My issue is that she's behaving like a sore loser, saying things like "she didn't earn it" and suggesting it was poor sportsmanship simply because they are an inferior team. Like I said, was Prince's team supposed to take it easy on their weaker opponents? I don't think that's within the spirit of competition. It's not little league where the score is "fun to fun" so everyone goes home happy.

She's not saying it's bad for the game, she's not saying it's bad for Prince's teammates, she's essentially saying it was wrong to dominate a weaker team, that it was "like picking on a handicapped person". And I don't agree with that.

[Cable]

You can read it that way ... or you can read it as 'they were already winning by 50, why did they have to keep playing as hard as they can?' Maybe they keep it competitive, but not to the point where they're up by 50 and going on 20-2 runs or whatever. If you're up by 50, keep it competitive by trading basket for basket, not going on huge runs.

[[L3]1101]

However the article should be interpreted is up to the readers and both Andrew and the rest of us have their own point of views, which is what makes this discussion interesting.

But let's put this article aside, should the coach kept Prince in the game?
And did it ever occur to Prince to pass the ball and running some plays? Did she think of her teammates when she was playing? If the answer is no, then I think Prince has no sportsmanship nor any basketball sense.

[Cable]

no sportsmanship nor any basketball sense

... or honour, or any find of nice feelings in her body. How the hell do you score 4 times your team? I wouldn't be surprised if her team stood around the whole time at half court. Do you think any fans stayed to watch?

[Andrew]

Forget this convincing argument. If you feel that the starters should have been in there when the lead was up to 30pts to preserve the lead, that is sure is something...

That's not what I said. I didn't say it was necessary. I simply said it wasn't poor sportsmanship. Also, the article did mention that Prince was the only starter left in there.

Poor sporsmanship is leaving that girl in a HIGH SCHOOL game when the winning team is winning by ALMOST 100 POINTS. I've already given my opinion about comparing high school sports to professional sports

As Maes said, it's holding high school players to a higher standard than the pros. If a coach insists on letting a player chase a milestone, better he do it in a regular season game that they're leading than jeopardising the season/game in a close contest.

There's nothing wrong with scrubs playing out the game "properly". I'm not disputing that. I'm talking about King launching a 3pter when basically everyone is walking off the court in the dying seconds of a blowout game. That's wrong and I never heard anything about King or the Players association appealing the fines he received.

I was talking more about Gordon's late shot there, but as far as King is concerned I still don't think it's a big deal. To me it's like putting up a shot from beyond midcourt as the quarter ends. It's playing to the final buzzer.

Does that include leaving in your starters all the way to the end even when the lead is well over 50pts???

As I said before, Prince was the only starter remaining in the game.

You can read it that way ... or you can read it as 'they were already winning by 50, why did they have to keep playing as hard as they can?' Maybe they keep it competitive, but not to the point where they're up by 50 and going on 20-2 runs or whatever. If you're up by 50, keep it competitive by trading basket for basket, not going on huge runs.

But again, since when are the winners obliged to keep it fair and allow the other team to have a chance? Why should they keep it competitive by allowing the other team to trade baskets with them?

[Cable]

Does the other team really have a chance if their losing by so much? It's not keeping the game fair; it's not running up an already high score.

[Andrew]

But again I ask, what obligation does have a team have to keep it competitive and allow the other team to score so it can go basket for basket? Why shouldn't they keep playing the game? By all means yank their starters, I'm on board with that idea, I understand that one. Why shouldn't the scrubs play their best? What's wrong with the scrubs playing well and continuing to run up the score? Why should they stop playing the game, just to make it "fairer" for the losing team?

[Cable]

Well, that raises a good point. Is it okay for scrubs to extend the lead? I would say yes, if they can, then by all means go right ahead. But it wasn't scrubs who extended the lead nor was it all scrubs on the court. It was Prince, who had (insert number here)-odd points, still in the game and still running up the score. Is that good sportsmanship?

[Andrew]

Fair enough, I thought you were talking about scrubs continuing to run up the lead in general. In the context of Prince's game, it's perhaps not within the spirit of the unwritten agreement. But bad sportsmanship would be an exaggeration.

As I said, I'm not saying you can't criticise what happened, good points have been raised as to why the record setting game was bad for Prince's team but I see Vera Springer's reaction as being bad sportsmanship more than allowing Prince to set the record, because she's acting like a very sore loser.

And since L3 brought it up, I wouldn't argue if Prince was taken out of the game or if you want to call the accomplishment selfish, though it's worth noting that since she shot 54/60 she had a hot hand to say the least. I think it's wrong, bordering on bad sportsmanship to go out of the way to achieve a record, fouling constantly, calling an unnecessary timeout (that Anthony Bowie incidednt) or whatever but simply allowing a player to play isn't. At least not to the same extent. You might disagree and I understand that point of view. But I don't consider it bad sportsmanship the same way as being a sore loser or going out of the way to make a record happen or playing dirty.

[Cable]

Do we know if the game ended with fouling, etc. or did the other team keep trying?

I'm liking this, debating is fun

[Andrew]

From the sounds of the article they just played it out.

I'm liking this, debating is fun

Me too. It's always good to get this kind of back and forth going rather than topics where we just all comment rather than having a discussion.

[Cable]

Well, if they just played it out then I suppose the only problem I still have is keeping Prince in. Like I mentioned before, if she'd come out at half then there wouldn't have been a chance at the record and perhaps not as much controversy.

[Andrew]

Possibly. But even then, the disrespect and unfairness is within her own team, to her own teammates. It's not directed at the opponents which is what Springer insinuates. At least the criticism is aimed at the coach rather than Prince. Presented with the opportunity as she was and considering how well she was playing, I don't think she can be faulted for going out and doing what she did.

[Eugene]

It just seems that once the game was decided and the losing team stopped playing defense, Prince got her points (about half of them) in garbage time, making them more or less meaningless. And I'll even say this: I feel the same way about Wilt's 100 points. When your teammates start fouling the opposition to get the ball back so you can score a hundred points long after the outcome's been decided, that is poor sportsmanship.

The difference with Kobe Bryant's performance is that that game wasn't decided until 3 or 4 minutes left in the game (even then, the lead was just 13, needless to say, teams have come back from such deficits, but we knew at that point, the Raptors were done), and at that point, Kobe Bryat had 74 points. Yes, he picked up 7 meaningless points to get the gaudy 81 point performance, but that's not the same as playing the entire second half when the games long been decided and taking almost every shot so you can get 113 points against a team that had quit playing altogether.

While it may not be a bad thing, there is certainly no honor in trying to run up the score against a bad team for the sake of numbers. My intramural team had done that once, trying to score triple digits in an IM game (something that'd never been done before) and we'd have gotten there if the ref hadn't cut the game short. Not exactly something I'm proud of, and it has no real significance, and I don't even talk about it unless it's for silly bragging wars.

I agree with Andrew's points about being a sore loser, but you don't want to rub your opponent's faces in the loss either. When you start taking the numbers and stats outside of the context of the game, then there's no excuse, it's just poor sportsmanship.

[Andrew]

I agree that the record might be more meaningful had it come about more "organically", without the flow of a competitive game. But it would seem they played it out so it's not as though they went out of their way in terms of fouling to get her the record.

Running up the score might not be the done thing, but what do you do if the opponent just gives up and starts going through the motions? Obviously you can pull your starters and pull back a bit but I don't think you should stop playing the game or let the opponents score.

[j.23]

E.P is on the left. oh how i would love to stick my jackhammer in her manhole.

[air gordon]

Andrew- interesting debate. I don't know how much more is left to debate though. If you feel that a halfcourt shot at the end of a quarter is the same as a last shot like King's at the end of a blowout, there's nothing left to discuss.

Things like class & respect for me apply to those situations, probably due to my coaching throughout my brief career in athletics. I'm not expecting you to agree with me- I just don't understand your reasoning

[Andrew]

Well perhaps I do miss the point, and the example I gave is probably a bad one. If King wanted to attempt a three pointer when the game's in the bag - something he wouldn't normally do, just to try his hand at it - I don't see it as a huge act of disrespect or bad sportsmanship. Though perhaps if you could explain why it is, I'd see it differently.

Believe me, I'm all about respect and class at all levels too. I played against some real punks in the junior leagues in the Newcastle Basketball Association but I'm not sure how taking a final shot like that - not even that seriously - is bad sportsmanship or classless. I'm interested to know the reasoning though. My reasoning is that it's just harmless fun at the end of the game, it doesn't matter anymore, it's just a player trying something he wouldn't normally in the final seconds.

I mean, would you consider Michael Jordan's practice of attempting free throws with his eyes closed in an exhibition/blowout game bad sportsmanship? To me it's the same kind of thing, that's probably a better example of how I see it rather than the end-of-quarter Hail Mary.

[air gordon]

Well perhaps I do miss the point, and the example I gave is probably a bad one. If King wanted to attempt a three pointer when the game's in the bag - something he wouldn't normally do, just to try his hand at it - I don't see it as a huge act of disrespect or bad sportsmanship. Though perhaps if you could explain why it is, I'd see it differently.

Believe me, I'm all about respect and class at all levels too. I played against some real punks in the junior leagues in the Newcastle Basketball Association but I'm not sure how taking a final shot like that - not even that seriously - is bad sportsmanship or classless. I'm interested to know the reasoning though. My reasoning is that it's just harmless fun at the end of the game, it doesn't matter anymore, it's just a player trying something he wouldn't normally in the final seconds.

I mean, would you consider Michael Jordan's practice of attempting free throws with his eyes closed in an exhibition/blowout game bad sportsmanship? To me it's the same kind of thing, that's probably a better example of how I see it rather than the end-of-quarter Hail Mary.

sorry for the late reply... either the site's been down or i forget about this thread because of all the laker threads surfacing hehe....

as far as this king guy (i can't believe several posts have been devoted to this guy's actions haha)-

king is a center/power forward. his range was limited to 10-15ft and that's being generous. his game isn't bombing from long range. so first off he has no business taking 3pters. if he tried that in a close game (not counting the shot clock running out) you could be sure he'd be spending the rest of the game picking the splinters off his butt

secondly- you don't use a blowout to try test out some skill you don't have/shouldn't be doing in the 1st place, especially when the game is about to end/and the opposition is walking off the court.

Now you or Stacey King may think what the heck, why not take the 3? Consider for the opposition that it's bad enough already they have been embarassed by a blowout loss. There is no fun in those type of losses any way you put it. Now they have to sit there and watch some idiot scrub use actual game time for monkey business. That is insult to injury.

this is the way i was taught in organized sports. right or wrong. And if we crossed the line, they weren't shy to let us or the opposition know about it

of course Jordan closing his eyes on a FT in an actual NBA game is disrespectful to the opponents. that cocky bastard was that good he would do it in a game. But you could be sure he wouldn't be doing self alleyoops off the backboard or shoot 3pters in the dying second in a blowout loss

[Andrew]

When you put it like that, I do understand that point of view a bit better. I still feel there are worse displays of bad sportsmanship however; I consider being an extremely sore loser, fighting or intentionally injuring another player worse offenses.

(i can't believe several posts have been devoted to this guy's actions haha)

Since he is in our conversation, not sure if I've mentioned it before but I actually found footage of him dunking a while back. I was amazed.

[air gordon]

well obviously there are worse levels of bad sporsmanship. that is definitely not disputable hehe

A King dunk???!! was it at the end of a game when no one was cared

I remember you asking me if he had ever done this. I dont' remember it ever happening. Please to post it or send it to my email

[Andrew]

It wasn't at the game but I'd wager no one cared. I'll try and dig it out so I can send it along. It was actually a fairly nice lefty throwdown. Probably his first and last in the pros.