Larry Brown vs. Knicks

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Larry Brown vs. Knicks

Postby Amphatoast on Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:43 am

As Larry Brown turned left at Woody Allen's seat and accelerated past Isiah Thomas and Magic Johnson in the tunnel, one Knick turned to his teammates and announced: "Now we can start playing ball."

Just when you thought it couldn't get any uglier at Madison Square Garden, a growing rift between the players and their Hall of Fame coach is beginning to surface. How bad is it? Let's just say it's safe to assume that no one in the locker room is going to take up a collection to pay Brown's fine for being ejected in the third quarter of Tuesday's humiliating 130-97 loss to the Lakers.

The Knicks are in disarray from top to bottom with no relief - or playoff games - in sight. Thomas, the team president, is embroiled in a sexual harassment lawsuit that gets messier each day. The team has lost nine of its last 10 games and is 14-30 overall.

And inside the locker room, where confusion and frustration reign, the players are fed up with Brown beating them down privately and publicly, according to several team sources. Following Monday's loss to Atlanta, Brown accused the players of quitting. Two days earlier, he was highly critical of Eddy Curry's performance in a loss to Philadelphia.

That's why few players were sorry to see the coach ejected with 5:46 remaining in the third quarter Tuesday night. According to a source, as Brown walked to the locker room, at least two players half-jokingly commented that the team was free to play how it wanted.

In the aftermath of the 33-point loss to the Lakers, the Knicks met for two hours at their training facility yesterday, but the players were not made available. Thomas and Garden chairman James Dolan were also in Greenburgh and were said to be in meetings with Brown. Both Dolan and Thomas were off limits to the press as well.

People close to Dolan continue to stress that the Garden chief has faith in Thomas even though that loyalty is being tested. Under Thomas, the Knicks haven't won a playoff game and are working on their third straight losing season. Thomas has convinced Dolan that he is rebuilding and yet the Chicago Bulls own the Knicks' first-round pick this June, which is almost certain to be a lottery selection. Also, the payroll is at a league-high $120 million and climbing.

Thomas acquired every player on the roster and their performance under Brown has done little to enhance the team president's job security. It also can't help that Brown has used 27 starting lineups and that he has been openly critical of the players, something that neither Don Chaney nor Lenny Wilkens dared to do under Thomas.

Likewise, it can't help Brown that his players all have a pipeline to Thomas. In the past, Thomas' role as a buffer and friend to certain players ticked off those Knicks who were leftovers from previous regimes. Now Brown is the outsider.

With Thomas being such a powerful presence around the team it would seem only logical that Brown would have problems gaining command of the locker room, even though he has a proven track record. According to a source, the players are convinced that Brown is looking to move most of them and would do just that if given the power. Hence, the players are loyal to Thomas, which could lead to a Brown-Thomas showdown.

Stephon Marbury's problems with Brown have been well-documented, and if nothing else, the point guard is not afraid to tell his side of the story. The same is true of second-year forward Trevor Ariza, who two weeks ago requested a meeting with Brown only to be denied.

But many of their teammates who have also felt the brunt of Brown's demanding ways - Jamal Crawford, Nate Robinson, Curry and Jerome James - have exercised restraint.

The lines of communication appear to be closing. Following yesterday's film session, Brown admitted that Antonio Davis delivered a message from the team that they want the staff to simplify the way they are to defend pick-and-rolls.

"He was the spokesperson," Brown said. "Tony knows me."

Davis played for Brown with the Indiana Pacers and acts as a liaison between the players and the coach. Of course, Thomas had serious reservations about bringing in Davis, who was included in the Curry deal. Perhaps Thomas felt threatened because of Davis' relationship with the new coach. Now, Brown needs Davis more than ever.

"You can say almost anything to Tony Davis because he's been with me and there is a trust," Brown said of his tough-love approach. "And then with some, they might not listen to what you're saying, they might just hear your voice."

You have to wonder how many Knicks hear anything now.


some dream job this is.. not just marbury, but seemingly every knick is against him. Marbury, Curry, Crawford, Ariza, James, Robinson all dislike the coach. I'm sure others too with the inconsistant lineups
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Postby Matt on Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:53 am

the players are convinced that Brown is looking to move most of them and would do just that if given the power. Hence, the players are loyal to Thomas, which could lead to a Brown-Thomas showdown.


TRUTH!!!!

I'm sure others too with the inconsistant lineups


not just that, but i presume it's his coaching ways that piss guys off the most. Look at Quentin Richardson, he's scared to shoot 3's, J Crawford has regressed to the point of being practically useless. Basically, guys aren;t allowed to play to their strengths....he never allowed Memo Okur to play on the perimeter, or the Pistons to shoot 3's.....Browns gone and look what both are doing, and having plenty of success.
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Postby ixcuincle on Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:58 am

Out of curiosity where did that article come from? ESPN? NY Daily News?
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Re: Larry Brown vs. Knicks

Postby John WB on Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:51 am

Amphatoast wrote:According to a source, the players are convinced that Brown is looking to move most of them and would do just that if given the power.

They're playing like shit. They should be moved. Q, Crawford and James in particular.
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Postby Amphatoast on Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:24 am

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Postby Doobie on Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:27 am

dude, Toast , aren't you supposed to be in school?
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Postby dada on Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:29 am

Thats a very sorry team.
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Postby Amphatoast on Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:32 am

DoobieKnicks wrote:dude, Toast , aren't you supposed to be in school?

finished HS 2 yrs ago.. doin 2nd yr of college.. times arent exactly set like in HS lol.

but ya knicks are horrible.... i find my physics textbook more interesting at the moment..
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Postby Its_asdf on Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:48 am

And I thought the Raptors are screwed over....
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Postby J@3 on Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:59 am

The large majority of the roster is shit, they play like shit and have bad contracts. These fuckwits really need to take a look at themselves before they go blaming the coach for what's going out on the court. Because no, Malik Rose, 3ppg/2rpg isn't good production for 6 million per season. They'd get better results paying the minimum to some 7 foot tall African who still thinks the basketball is possessed by the great God Abubu.
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Postby air gordon on Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:07 pm

Michael Wiboun on PTI was saying that this happens with every team Larry Brown's coached. Brown bitches, the players bitch, then the team produces.

Brown can be a cry baby, high maintenance, or have unusual tactics, or whatever but his "style" has been successful so far as every team he's coached has eventually made the playoffs.

Sure the cards are stacked against him now but it's pretty sad that some people are just kicking a man while he's down, especially a Piston Fan like Matt who got to see Billups and Wallace mature into the players they are now & see the Pistons win a championship :shake:
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Postby Andrew on Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:39 pm

This part's not exactly a positive though:

The same is true of second-year forward Trevor Ariza, who two weeks ago requested a meeting with Brown only to be denied.


I don't think that's a good approach for a coach to have at all. Refusing to discuss matters with his players does nothing for team morale or the already strained relationships Brown would appear to have with his team. I don't mean to blow it out of proportion but if this is how Brown wants to treat his players then he can't place the blame entirely upon them if they tune him out.

The players need to put in the effort and show respect for the coach, but they can't be treated like cattle either. With that much disarray, you need to get everyone on the same page. If Brown is too stubborn to help that situation then he'll be as much to blame if he's ousted.
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Postby Num33Baller on Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:56 pm

No offense to Artest Fans... I like the guy too, but I would have liked to see a peja for crawford and ariza or a peja and wells for crawford, ariza, and richardson.
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Postby kinokong on Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:10 pm

lol.... ur kings would have been fucked then... two trigger happy 3pointer launchers who constantly make bad decisions and make 11mil between them and one defensive minded athletic can shoot forward.... id take artest's and well's crazy lunacy over them anyday
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Postby Num33Baller on Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:35 pm

just_decent wrote:lol.... ur kings would have been fucked then... two trigger happy 3pointer launchers who constantly make bad decisions and make 11mil between them and one defensive minded athletic can shoot forward.... id take artest's and well's crazy lunacy over them anyday


Not really. I think they would have fit in fairly well in Sac. Adelman would have been able to handle them.

Remember Jayson Williams?

Yeah # 55 who used to chuck threes from half court.


He didn't do that towards the end of his playing days in Sac.

Why? Because Adelman is a good coach.
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Postby Its_asdf on Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:40 pm

Remember Jayson Williams?


For someone who's supposedly a Kings fan, you don't even remember how to spell Jason Williams' name do you?
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Postby cyanide on Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:30 pm

Andrew wrote:This part's not exactly a positive though:

The same is true of second-year forward Trevor Ariza, who two weeks ago requested a meeting with Brown only to be denied.


I don't think that's a good approach for a coach to have at all. Refusing to discuss matters with his players does nothing for team morale or the already strained relationships Brown would appear to have with his team. I don't mean to blow it out of proportion but if this is how Brown wants to treat his players then he can't place the blame entirely upon them if they tune him out.

The players need to put in the effort and show respect for the coach, but they can't be treated like cattle either. With that much disarray, you need to get everyone on the same page. If Brown is too stubborn to help that situation then he'll be as much to blame if he's ousted.


I definitely noticed that too, and it bugged me. I think Brown's a good coach, but he's dealing with an egotistical bunch in New York that doesn't know how to play team. With that, it becomes really easy to turn away from Brown, and it's harder for Brown to get them to listen. It doesn't work in New York, that's for sure.
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Postby Num33Baller on Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:41 pm

Its_asdf wrote:
Remember Jayson Williams?


For someone who's supposedly a Kings fan, you don't even remember how to spell Jason Williams' name do you?



You try spelling when you've been up for 20+ hours straight.
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Re: Larry Brown vs. Knicks

Postby Jeffx on Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:41 pm

John WB wrote:
Amphatoast wrote:According to a source, the players are convinced that Brown is looking to move most of them and would do just that if given the power.

They're playing like shit. They should be moved. Q, Crawford and James in particular.


...and move Isiah's ass out of here too.
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Postby Matt on Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:51 pm

Sure the cards are stacked against him now but it's pretty sad that some people are just kicking a man while he's down, especially a Piston Fan like Matt who got to see Billups and Wallace mature into the players they are now & see the Pistons win a championship


What, i was kicking him while he was down all of last season too, i desperately wanted him fired because of the stupid shit he was doing. For all the good things he did with the vets he sure as hell never helped the young guys apart from bag them in public.
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Postby Andrew on Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:40 pm

cyanide wrote:I definitely noticed that too, and it bugged me. I think Brown's a good coach, but he's dealing with an egotistical bunch in New York that doesn't know how to play team. With that, it becomes really easy to turn away from Brown, and it's harder for Brown to get them to listen. It doesn't work in New York, that's for sure.


Absolutely, Brown doesn't have it easy and the players need to give as well; the man has been a successful coach in the NBA, has coached championship teams in college and the pros and knows a thing or two about basketball. But if he's not willing to give one of his players the time of day and run him down in the media calling him "delusional" he can't expect to hold the respect and attention of his players.

The thing is, his approach has worked in the past so on one hand it's hard to fault, but when it doesn't work you don't keep forcing it. Brown doesn't have to go soft on his players, that's not going to work. Firm but fair would be the way to go. Firm enough to discipline and control his players, fair enough so they'll learn from the discipline and respect his authority.

His challenge is unenviable but I think he's approaching it the wrong way.
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Postby Jeffx on Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:45 am

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Postby cyanide on Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:42 am

Andrew wrote:His challenge is unenviable but I think he's approaching it the wrong way.


For sure. With that being said, a few good examples from that article Jeffx posted:

"We're trying to coach them," Brown said yesterday. "If you're going to take coaching as criticism, we're not going to make any progress.


several Knicks are growing increasingly frustrated with Brown, who they feel has been too critical of the team in private and in the media.


He has said repeatedly that Robinson thinks of himself as a highlight reel and not a basketball player. He doesn't feel that Curry works hard enough on the defensive end. He has called Trevor Ariza delusional and has criticized Jamal Crawford's decision-making.


Like I said before, his method may have worked in the past, but not with this New York team because of the players... or is it because of the coach? Right now, I'm thinking there's problems on both sides, that the players and the coach are incompatible. Brown wants defensive minded players, like with the past Detroit, Philly, and Indiana squads. The New York players are offensive minded, but stuck with the wrong kind of coach.
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Postby Matt on Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:26 am

no one's gonna win here. They need to compromise a bit....Brown lets guys have their freedom on offense as long as they play D...that's the only way it'll work, but he's too stubborn.
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Re: Larry Brown vs. Knicks

Postby John WB on Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:00 am

Jeffx wrote:
John WB wrote:
Amphatoast wrote:According to a source, the players are convinced that Brown is looking to move most of them and would do just that if given the power.

They're playing like shit. They should be moved. Q, Crawford and James in particular.


...and move Isiah's ass out of here too.

Exactly.

And The Knicks complaining sound like a bunch of pussies to me. Do what he says and maybe they won't be stinking it up so bad losing by 20 and 30 to the Hawks and Lakers.

They all sound delusional.
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