And the best PG in the league is....

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Postby Matt on Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:40 pm

its funny how suddenly when a team is playing well its "made" for players or its the "perfect system" for the player. give credit where credit is due, nash is what makes phoenix good


Dallas was always a 50+ win team....had better offensive options than Phx does and Nash was the same player as he is now. It's clear that the way Phx plays has something to do Nash's success and vice versa.

and by the way, i dont understand how kidd is more important than nash in the closing minutes. on what clutch insignificant play is this based on? obviously one would rather have kidd on defense in the closing minutes, but i think i would rather have the ball in nash's hand on offense, so to me, it pretty much evens out, and in this stage of their careers id give it to nash.


Kidd is more important because not only does he hit big time shots or set teammates up with easy passes but he doesn't get lit up on the other end. Nash is a bad defender, Kidd isn't.

Wow, I would never put Baron Davis ahead of Kidd... he's not even in the same tier


Me neither, Davis is like a mini-Antoine Walker.
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Postby Axel on Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:53 pm

The entire Warriors team is a mini Antoine Walker.
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Postby fgrep15 on Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:28 am

Axel wrote:I agree cy... Nash has made his entire team better. How many of us really expected people like Boris Diaw and Raja Bell to have such great seasons? Nash commands so much attention by the defense because he is a great 3pt thread and can weave through a slew of players. That gets everyone else on his team wide open shots.

Besides, you couldn't dislike anyone who has patented "the circle play" :lol:

One thing people seem to keep hinting but is not true is that Nash someone makes some guys good offensive players. A good PG can increase your offensive efficiency, and get you easier shots, but they don't make players become good on offense.

Bell this season:

13.2 PPG | 3.4 RPG | 2.5 APG | 43.5% FG | 41.1% 3PT | 38.2 MPG

Last season:

12.3 PPG | 3.2 RPG | 1.4 APG | 45.4% FG | 40.3% 3PT | 28.4 MPG

He's scoring 0.9 more PPG in 10 more MPG, while shooting a lower FG% and slightly higher 3PT%. This is in comparison to playing on a Utah team last season that didn't have 2 of it's best players for a lot of the year, and no real PG. His assists are higher because this team takes a lot more shots than Utah did, have a offense where you're not to hesitate to shoot, so everytime you swing the ball, their's a good chance of you getting an assist. He is not doing anything special, his scoring increase is actually dissapointing for an increase of 10 MPG, his rebounding too.

Diaw is the farthest thing from a product of Nash's playmaking. He's a product of the system, but also of the skills he already had in Atlanta that weren't being put to proper use because of coaching, and also the different system. Diaw is assisted on 56% of his makes, a decent amount, but not showing he has dependence on being set up. He has as much versatility as anyone in the league, and can do many things with the ball in his hands. His greatest assets to the team are not scoring, but playmaking/passing, rebounding, and defense which have nothing to do with Nash. He is also leading the team in +- because of his ability to impact every area of the game for them, scoring, rebounding, passing, on and off the ball defense, and even shot blocking.


I can kinda see what Matt is saying. It reminds me a little of Mike Bibby. In Sacramento his highest APG has been 6. something because of their Princeton offense that runs primarily through the big men. Before he came to Sac, he was putting up the same APG numbers as Nash in Dallas, and Marbury constatly has. He has a little point in that while Nash's skills is part of what makes Phoenix good, the system is what caused Nash's sudden "improvement" in his pasing game. Now, only guys like Nash, Kidd, Baron, Knight, Miller, Bibby, Marbury, [the Top passing PG's] could average the same amount of assists in the system, and only probably Kidd, Baron, and Bibby could win a similar amount, Kidd being at the Top at that. Maybe Andre too, he's one of the best at throwing an alley, can drive and dish as well as the others, and has done well in Denver. Every capable PG [not the crappy ones that would just get turnovers] in the league would recieve an increase in APG in a system that has the ball in their hands and surrounds them with finishers and good-very good shooters, not all can win though because they have to at least be good players also.

Phoenix runs almost nothing off wing or post isolations, about everything starts from a hand off or pick and roll, and the majority of shots are a catch and shoot from drive and kick, hand off and shoot, one pass and shoot, pick and pop, or pick and roll. Not many coaches encourage taking the first shot available, Phoenix encourages that if you're open, no matter who, you shoot, while also encouraging ball movement because they're an unselfish team. In a different coaching system, the team will look to establish a post game, and also will look to do more iso's, which does not benefit the PG in terms of assists. If JVG was coaching, it's hard enough to average 7-8 APG because of how the team would play.

If you pass to a guy and he shoots right away, even if he only shoots 40%, you pass to him 5 times a game, and you'll get 2 APG from him alone. If you pass to him, and he does a little creating and then shoots 4 times, and only 1 of the 5 times shoots right away, also making 40% of the shots when you pass to him, he's only getting you 0.4 APG.

That's the main difference between a Phoenix offensive system, and most other teams offensive systems. The Warriors are sort off doing a similar thing in that they like to shoot a lot from the outisde, but they don't have nearly as good an offensive system, they don't take three's off movement as much, they just take three's. Their overall shooting isn't on par with Phoenix, they have Fisher, Phoenix has Nash, Bell, House, Jones, Barbosa, and even Marion and Jackson who are shooting bad from outside are normally good. They also don't have the same finishing inside that the Suns had with Amare/Marion last year, and Marion even more this year. J-Rich can dunk, but that's not the same thing.

Marion also seems to be underappreciated on that team. He's basically the only guy in the league that can constantly get a defensive rebound, outlet the ball, then beat everyone else down the court and score in like 5 seconds. In half court sets, he's constantly moving and cutting to the basket because he's the energizer bunny and doesn't get tired, and opens up passing lanes and angles for his teammates [mostly Nash and Diaw, somerimes Bell or House] to get the ball to him for easy scores. He's also capable of finishing just about anything inside, sets up their fast paced offense by cleaning the glass, and gives then an interior defensive presence with his 1.94 BPG.

1) Kidd
2) Nash
3) Billups
4) Baron
5) Dre' Miller/Parker

The reason I will put Kidd ahead is that like already said he's MUCH better defensively, even while not being at Top form. Also I'm not seeing Nash doing anything Kidd can't. Kidd averaged 10.9 APG on a team with much less offensive talent, scoring fewer PPG, and right now, his playmaking has not declined, he's still able to do that. Scoring and shooting, Nash wins, no question.


top 5 pgs right now:
1. nash
2. iverson/wade (if they're considered pgs)
3. chauncy
4. baron
5. kidd

Wade has been a SG for a while now, J-Will plays PG on the Heat. He only plays as the PG for some stretchs of the game or when J-Will was injured he played a little more even though Payton was there.
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Postby maes on Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:12 pm

Matt wrote:In close games Nash is a liability....example, vs Pistons in last few minutes he was lit up by Chauncey Billups whilst doing nothing significant on the other end.


Actually the last times both teams met detroit Nash did a lot better than Kidd did.

Nash: 18 points 8 assists, lost by 7
Kidd: 8 points 5 assists, lost by 10

Now the pace of the Phoenix game was much higher, but still Nash was a bit below his averages while Kidd had one of his worst games.

It's all good to spread the Kidd love, but i don't see how anyone can bash Nash...i think the entire community has forgotten that Nash lost his #1 assist option and one of the best finishers in the league.

There was a lot of talk about how wretched Nash's #s would be now that he has no Dirk and no Amare, but Nash has dropped from 11.5 apg to a 11.3 apg while raising his scoring & rebounding...he's actually better with Amare gone, not worse as everyone predicted.
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Postby air gordon on Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:43 pm

Phoenix has the 2nd best defense in the league, that is, if you put some sort of credence in stats...

I think FT is being overlooked here- Nash is basically automatic from the line
Jump.
Scott Skiles answer to the question on how Eddy Curry can become a better rebounder
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Postby dada on Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:28 pm

fgrep15 wrote:All that stuff he posted


That is a long assed post. I cant even begin to get myself to read that.
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Postby Axel on Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:30 pm

dadamafia wrote:
fgrep15 wrote:All that stuff he posted


That is a long assed post. I cant even begin to get myself to read that.


I decided the debate wasn't worth reading that much. :lol:
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Postby Matt on Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:33 pm

well it was very insightful!
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Postby 8baller8 on Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:54 pm

STEVE NASH duh. wat other point guard get like 16 assist a game
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Postby Drex on Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:01 am

You and your revivings. Nash can't defend my grandmother.
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Postby Matt on Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:02 am

i dont see Nash getting 16 a game, do you?
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Postby AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy on Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:10 am

Nash can't defend my grandmother.


Beauty thing is, he doesn't have too.
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Postby Drex on Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:28 am

You're underrating my grandmother :x
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