Duncan ahead of KG in the latest round of A-S voting

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Indeed... just put the emphasis on still and you'll get it.

[magius]

duncan should start over kg.

for one, everyone knows that if you put a bunch of real good players together it doesnt neccassarily mean success, see portland, see houston. duncan is the leader and focus of that team and deserves credit for not only anchoring their defense (which leads to their wins), but anchoring the way they play.

kg averages more assists because he plays on the perimiter and high post. also, offensively he touches the ball more than td. if td passes out of a double in the mid to low post, its just the nature of basketball that the ball rotates before being shot, not get shot right away. have you seen hakeem's assist numbers? have you seen shaq's assist numbers? theres no doubt that both create incredibly easy shots for their teammates, but they play mid-low post all the time so their passing angles are constrained. as opposed to kg who combo dish drives and plays post (though far less mid-low than said players, td included). stephon averaged 8 assists, not because he creates easier shots than a shaq, td or hakeem, but because he dish drives and has far more direct shot assists. assists are not the be all and end all of actually assisting on a shot.

look at the team records. if the statement that a players record should not influence how we judge them is true, than iverson or lebron should have won the mvp last year. fact is that it does and it should. you could say that oh i guess darko is better than kg then, but im not talking about darko, im talking about the two superstars and focus's of two teams.

i prefer a post team defender to a one on one defender any day. fact is san antonio can afford to not have td guard the other team's best player one on one. just like detroit would use rasheed as their main one on one post defender and ben as their anchor. that way td can cheat even just a little and help stop penetration from not only the inside but outside. a good post team defender makes good one on one defenders out of his teammates.

[Matt]

Duncan isn't even the best player on the Spurs right now. It's Parker....Parker doesn't need to be set up he just scores at will.

[magius]

parker is the best player on the spurs? your kidding, right? in what strange imaginary world does a piston fan forget the importance of defence? parker not needing to be setup would matter maybe if the nba were a one on one league. if it werent for duncan parker would be dimnished by post defense free to focus on penetration. he can drive and he can score at will, but so can barbosa.... and he's not even a starter - because everyone knows that depending on that type of player is the road to mediocrity. saying parker is better than td is comparable to saying sczerbiak is better than kg.

[Matt]

Parker certainly is playing better than Duncan right now. He's the only Spur that isn't bothered by dbl or trpl teams and he's the focus of the other teams defense.

[magius]

triple teams? are we talking about the same tony parker here? if by triple teams you mean eva longaria and her two tits, okay, but i sure as hell havent seen any triple teams on parker. i've seen switches off screens, but thats nothing new for a point guard. i've seen slow collapsing defense (due to td's presence) when he gets into the lane, but i haven't seen actual defenses focused on parker for any extended duration worth mentioning. what i do see is the opposing teams best post defender entirely focused on boxing or fronting duncan out of position. and from the spurs - good ball movement, rotation and spreading of the floor to open the floor for parker or iso him. i think you're confusing triple teams with three late defenders arriving around parker at the point of release or after. have you watched a spur game? most teams focus on spacing their defenders as to deny td a touch, because if he does touch it he will either score or punch out for a far easier and more valuable (team chemistry wise) shot in the flow. if there is a coach in the nba who actually believes he can afford to double parker with duncan and whoever other spur is on the floor i'd like to meet his delusional, unfortunate, sorry and undoubtebly losing mind. detroit has been succesful against the spurs during the regular season for 3 reasons: 1. they have 2 good-great post defenders, meaning rasheed can do the job on td, wallace can collapse at will on parker/ginobli. 2. they dont double parker and try not to with duncan, they play man on man. 3. the spurs dont seem to be giving a shit about the regular season, it feels like preseason to them - obviously the same affliction that detroit suffered last year, only they seem to have the ability to win regardless whether they actually try a full 48 or not.

[air gordon]

magius- a team needs real good players to win a championship. every team that has won a championship has had a real good player or 2. I have yet to see a NBA champion full of bad players

and i have no idea about the passing angles being constraint point. Maybe by chance, that Garnett is just the better passer and ball handler then Duncan which enables him to create better opportunities. Btw- more then half of Duncan shots are jumpers (58%) so he's not on the low post as often as you think

dweaver- who the hell is NOONE?

Garnett does not score more because teams can double team him quite frequently since he lacks the same weapons as Duncan

and if you want to get into the stats...
Garnett scores more points per possession, has a better FG%, a better eFG%

going off these stats you would think KG was the one playing with the superior roster

[H Rock]

Duncan isn't even the best player on the Spurs right now. It's Parker....Parker doesn't need to be set up he just scores at will.

For your information, every big man needs to be set up. According to your reasoning, Parker is now better than Wilt Chamberlain.

[j.23]

loved magius' comment about the triple threat comment w/ tony parker and longoria's tits. have no fear though, parker ain't facing no more triple teams. apparently longoria is with jamie foxx now

[magius]

lets look at bosh and j.o'neal for a moment.

bosh: 22.5 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 2.5 apg, 511 fg%
j.o'neal: 21.4 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 47 fg%

and if you really want to get into the stats
bosh scores more points per possession, has a better FG%, a better eFG%.....

hmmmm, going off these stats you would think bosh was the one playing with the superior roster.

i have yet to see a great player not become a nba champion. i believe that what determines what a great player really is is how good they make their teammates seem. have you ever stopped to think that maybe past spur teams and teammates have been considered good or perceived better because of duncan, not regardless of him.

my question to you is: do you really believe you would consider certain players "good" if they had not won a nba championship. would bruce bowen even be in the nba if not for tim duncan? my point is that a players success, regardless of his teammates, is as much a part of what defines him as is his statistics.... if it werent, reggie miller wouldn't even be a footnote in nba history, rasheed who? rip hannibal? horace grant = nobody, robert whore, deralick-a-fisher. i bet you if eddie jones had won a championship he'd be considered the heir to scottie pippen. but he didnt and he isnt.

i dont understand how you dont understand how playing in the post cuts your passing angles (options). i think we both agree that basic defense is keeping between your man and the basket, correct? lets say you're in the post, defense is man on man, their will always be an opponent who's main priority is trying to stay between you and your man ('fronting' if you will) because it just so happens that you and your man and the 'way to the basket' are in line; you will never see a perimiter defender trying to defend behind their guard. if you are on the perimiter, lets say top of the key, your wing on either side is defended at an angle instead, because the defender doesn't want to give a clear path to the basket, and your post players are either fronted which can lead to a lob, or wide open as their defenders try to keep them from a clear path. either way, keeping their guard from the basket and being between you and your man (cutting passing angles) are no longer one and the same, thus more legitimate passing options that actually lead to something.

a basic double team on a post player will come from the defender of the entry pass, leading to basically one feasible passing option for the post player. opposing defenses know this and, if the post punches out, rotate accordingly, but if the entry passer knows what he is doing he rotates the ball faster than the defense can adjust. thats how a true post player assists, and to be fair i did say mid-low.

27% of shaq's shots are jumpers, and he is pure post. last year, amare stoudemire.... 52% jumpers. garnett is at 71, j.o'neal at 70, brand at 67. i think its fair for me to say that duncan is a post player.

apparently garnett has more help scoring from his teammates than duncan too.... 59% of all his points are assisted opposed to duncan's 49%.... do i actually believe this no? but the stats say it, what does that say about the stats?

in the end, the only stat that really matters is winning percentage.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

triple teams? are we talking about the same tony parker here? if by triple teams you mean eva longaria and her two tits, okay,

Duncan isn't even the best player on the Spurs right now. It's Parker....Parker doesn't need to be set up he just scores at will.

Oh-my-GOD!!!

dweaver- who the hell is NOONE?

Your musical knowledge is far behind. Never heard of Del Noone?

[J@3]

Duncan isn't even the best player on the Spurs right now. It's Parker....Parker doesn't need to be set up he just scores at will.

Oh-my-GOD!!!

Put it back in your pants, after your analysis of the Spurs/Detroit finals series I don't think you're really allowed to be shocked by anythone anyone else says.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Duncan isn't even the best player on the Spurs right now. It's Parker....Parker doesn't need to be set up he just scores at will.

Oh-my-GOD!!!

Put it back in your pants, after your analysis of the Spurs/Detroit finals series I don't think you're really allowed to be shocked by anythone anyone else says.

Or are you expected to come up with any semplance of a logical answer to anything I post, no? I guess each of us has his own trends, mate.

[fgrep15]

Wait, why does it matter? Either way both of them will make it..

[air gordon]

Magius- the point i'm trying to make is that you need talent to win. it's a false stereotype to say a team lost because they "had too much talent". Portland lost to the Lakers because the fatman and the adulterer were just too much for them. Houston lost because the Dream, Barkley, and Pippen were clearly past their prime

i'll answer you other questions anyway...

Would Bowen still be in the NBA w.o Duncan? Of course- Any team could use a player who focuses on Defense, is unselfish, and can hit a 3pter. Look at Ira Newble- his offense is worse then Bowen's yet he's still in the player rotation

don't confuse great players that won championships with "role" players who won championships. I don't think Dennis Hopson is a great player just because he has a ring. Somenone like Eddie Jones is easily better then him

Impressive stats by Bosh. That goes to show that he's a better scorer then O'Neal, even on an inferior team.. similar to KG/TD comparison

Mid post players get double teamed the same way as high post players. Does Duncan possibly lose a few assists because of ball rotation? Sure the same could be said for KG. And you could say that KG loses assists due to teams being able to double team him and quickly recover since he posts up closer to the perimeter players (assuming the double team does not come from the backside)

i didn't say duncan was not a post player. it's quite obvious that Duncan has a face up game that he goes to quite often and it seemed you were implying that he's mostly in the post...

as for the stats on being assisted.. could mean an assortment of things. Maybe Garnett makes his moves quicker, has less isolations then Duncan. I never cited that stat as one of my arguing points anyway...

because one isn't an exact fit for your argument doesn't mean you should discredit all of the stats altogether

and now i'm lost. we're talking about all star balloting and now you're talking about winning being the only stat that counts

[fgrep15]

as for the stats on being assisted.. could mean an assortment of things. Maybe Garnett makes his moves quicker, has less isolations then Duncan. I never cited that stat as one of my arguing points anyway...

Garnett is better on the pick and pop, he hits a few of those a game, Duncan doesn't take as many of those, and is good at it, but not as good as KG. That's where the assist difference comes from since the difference is only about one more shot assisted a game.

[magius]

Magius- the point i'm trying to make is that you need talent to win. it's a false stereotype to say a team lost because they "had too much talent". Portland lost to the Lakers because the fatman and the adulterer were just too much for them. Houston lost because the Dream, Barkley, and Pippen were clearly past their prime

Never said you didnt need talent to win, the point im trying to make is that duncan maximizes his teammates talents.

oh and by the way, what i did say was that if you put a bunch of real good players together it doesnt neccassarily mean success. look at sacramento.

Would Bowen still be in the NBA w.o Duncan? Of course- Any team could use a player who focuses on Defense, is unselfish, and can hit a 3pter. Look at Ira Newble- his offense is worse then Bowen's yet he's still in the player rotation

let me clarify, the question is would bowen still be in the nba if he had never played with duncan. if bowen was playing on a losing team would anyone even know who he was. one dimensional defenders on less than stellar teams all have one thing in common: freakishly long arms, something bowen doesnt have. i think bowens reputation and confidence as a defender stem mainly from the fact he has had duncan to funnel into.

Impressive stats by Bosh. That goes to show that he's a better scorer then O'Neal, even on an inferior team.. similar to KG/TD comparison

and if you want to get into the stats...
Garnett scores more points per possession, has a better FG%, a better eFG%

going off these stats you would think KG was the one playing with the superior roster

no, it goes to show that playing on a superior team doesnt neccessarily mean better individual stats. rasheed's numbers dropped as a piston, yet it is pretty clear he is a better player now than in portland. tmacs numbers have dropped as a rocket, yet he got more mvp considerations last year than he did scoring 30 per. joe johnson is putting up better numbers because he's playing on a crap team. lebrons number rise without hughes. hell, even look at forced stars like ricky davis or ron mercer.

you seem to think that a star players numbers decline when playing on a bad team with less talented players as opposed to a better one, when in fact its the other way around thats true - that in general, a star player's numbers improve when playing on a bad or less talented team.

don't confuse great players that won championships with "role" players who won championships. I don't think Dennis Hopson is a great player just because he has a ring. Somenone like Eddie Jones is easily better then him

don't worry, i'm not. but i think role players such as a devin brown or malik rose's or elies reputations are increased significantly by winning a championship as opposed to if they hadn't.

Mid post players get double teamed the same way as high post players. Does Duncan possibly lose a few assists because of ball rotation? Sure the same could be said for KG. And you could say that KG loses assists due to teams being able to double team him and quickly recover since he posts up closer to the perimeter players (assuming the double team does not come from the backside)

let me clarify something again, its quite obvious that kg is a better ball handler and dish and driver than td, i never disputed that fact. i do dispute that kg is a better passer based solely on his assist statistics, because i think there are a multitude of different passes that although aren't credited an assist are just as valuable. i think duncan is a better passer out of the post and the post double, I think kg is a better passer off the drive and pick and roll, which you prefer is up to you. just because hakeem or the admiral only averaged 3 official assists per doesnt mean thats all the shots they actually influenced. just because brad miller averages more assists than a hakeem, admiral, sabonis, or duncan, doesnt mean he's a better passer.

as for the stats on being assisted.. could mean an assortment of things. Maybe Garnett makes his moves quicker, has less isolations then Duncan. I never cited that stat as one of my arguing points anyway...

because one isn't an exact fit for your argument doesn't mean you should discredit all of the stats altogether

but it did fit my argument if i had wanted to argue that (which i didnt, i was proving a point), and i discredited it because i knew it wasnt true. but if you want to know, td takes 53% of his shots in the first 15 seconds compared to 47% for kg, the truth is what fgrep said: kg plays more pick and roll, but theres no stat for that, is there?

and now i'm lost. we're talking about all star balloting and now you're talking about winning being the only stat that counts

i'll spell it out. people generally judge a players value by his stats. i think winning percentage is a viable individual stat. i don't think its the only stat that determines how good a player is, but i do think it is the most important one, and quite frankly, most dependable. thats why td should start as an all star over kg, in my opinion.

[air gordon]

ugh now i have to quote every single one now so there's no confusion. But then again there's my grammar haha...

Never said you didnt need talent to win, the point im trying to make is that duncan maximizes his teammates talents.

i agree with this. I'm sorry if there was an implication by me saying i didn't think this

oh and by the way, what i did say was that if you put a bunch of real good players together it doesnt neccassarily mean success. look at sacramento.

lol well obviously not every team full of good players wins every time. A lot of people criticize Portland or Sacramento but how about Detroit of last year?!

let me clarify, the question is would bowen still be in the nba if he had never played with duncan. if bowen was playing on a losing team would anyone even know who he was. one dimensional defenders on less than stellar teams all have one thing in common: freakishly long arms, something bowen doesnt have. i think bowens reputation and confidence as a defender stem mainly from the fact he has had duncan to funnel into.

k a lot of stuff going on here.. I would guess that Bowen would still be in the NBA. He gives a lot of effort on defense, can hit the 3pter, plays within his abilities on offense, has a good attitude. A lot of Coaches would want this type on his roster- namely Pat Riley, who coached him when Bowen was still in Miami.

I don't think he's as great as a defender as he as advertised and I do agree he does benefit greatly having the big Fundamental waiting in the lane. Though I'm not sure what your standards are for freakishly long arms, I will say Bowen does not have alligator arms I also disagree that Bowen is a one dimensional defender- he's pretty effective on the help zide and in zone defenses

no, it goes to show that playing on a superior team doesnt neccessarily mean better individual stats. rasheed's numbers dropped as a piston, yet it is pretty clear he is a better player now than in portland. tmacs numbers have dropped as a rocket, yet he got more mvp considerations last year than he did scoring 30 per. joe johnson is putting up better numbers because he's playing on a crap team. lebrons number rise without hughes. hell, even look at forced stars like ricky davis or ron mercer.

you seem to think that a star players numbers decline when playing on a bad team with less talented players as opposed to a better one, when in fact its the other way around thats true - that in general, a star player's numbers improve when playing on a bad or less talented team.

No Actually...
What I'm saying is that playing with more talented players should enable a player for better scoring opportunties, be a more efficient scorer. That is why is I brought in the fg%, eFG%, etc.. Not points, rebounds, assists, etc

of course Rasheed's stats declined- he went from #1 option to whatever you call it in detroit (him being a "better" is an altogether different argument). The same for Joe Johnson but vice versa.

Look at Johnson's %'s though- all down across the board since going to ATL. Same with Bryant since the Fatman was traded. Wade's %'s as well when the fatman was injured, and so forth. Lebron James % has been down since Hughes is out.

Most players lose their scoring efficiency when there are less scoring options on the team. That is why it is quite impressive the %'s Bosh and Garnett have. This is the point I've been trying to make the whole time

don't worry, i'm not. but i think role players such as a devin brown or malik rose's or elies reputations are increased significantly by winning a championship as opposed to if they hadn't.

can't disagree with that

i do dispute that kg is a better passer based solely on his assist statistics, because i think there are a multitude of different passes that although aren't credited an assist are just as valuable. i think duncan is a better passer out of the post and the post double, I think kg is a better passer off the drive and pick and roll, which you prefer is up to you.

this is subjective as i believe that shaq, Garnett, and Duncan are the best at passing out of double teams.. as far as big men are concerned

just because hakeem or the admiral only averaged 3 official assists per doesnt mean thats all the shots they actually influenced. just because brad miller averages more assists than a hakeem, admiral, sabonis, or duncan, doesnt mean he's a better passer.

you're preaching to the choir...

the truth is what fgrep said: kg plays more pick and roll, but theres no stat for that, is there?

yes there is not. And that's where watching the games comes in Good thing Fgrep brought that up, I overlooked that

As mentioned before, not all stats are entirely accurate. But some should have some kind of credence towards them.

i'll spell it out. people generally judge a players value by his stats. i think winning percentage is a viable individual stat. i don't think its the only stat that determines how good a player is, but i do think it is the most important one, and quite frankly, most dependable. thats why td should start as an all star over kg, in my opinion.

hehe this whole time I haven't said whether who should be starting. The ideal situation would be Yao out, and KG & TD forming the PF/C duo.

I started posting in this thread because a certain poster was downplaying Garnett's efforts

[magius]

guess we can settle for this give and take, it sure beats typing long ass posts.

i started posting in this thread because i thought duncan was being underrated. if that "certain poster" is me, well, i never meant to downplay or attack garnett, i meant to defend and promote duncan for the things he does that go unnoticed.

[air gordon]

nah- wasn't you i was referring to. i don't want to mention his or her name because mentioning his name would probably entice this person to contribute more of nothing to the discussion.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

I started posting in this thread because a certain poster was downplaying Garnett's efforts

... in relation to those of Duncan.

[air gordon]

oh, you.

well thanks for pointing that out

wasn't sure if you were done letting Magius make your argument for you

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Nope, just making sure the 'certain poster' got his fair due.

You're welcome, BTW.

[Riot]

Tim Duncan gets all the credit for the Spurs winning this year and Kevin Garnett gets all the blame for the Timberwolves losing this year. Check out the roster and coaching staff on both teams.

Greg Popovich is one of, if not, the best coach in the league. He has one of the best staffs in the league. Talent wise, they are the deepest team in the league. Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Michael Finley, Robert Horry, Nazr Mohammed, Rasho Nesterovic, Nick Van Exel, Beno Udrih, etc. They have a lot of talent on that team and they are very well coached. The Timberwolves have a rookie head coach who is making some rookie mistakes. Coaching makes a huge difference in the NBA, especially in close games.

I'm not saying Tim Duncan isn't a great player, because that would be unreal to say that. He is a top 3 player in the league...but to put all the success on his shoulders would be ignorant.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

He is a top 3 player in the league...but to put all the success on his shoulders would be ignorant.

That goes a long way from saying that he is still the centerpiece of the Spurs' offense, which was the only point I was trying to make all along. That, and the fact that I would vote for him over KG for the All-Star game.