Vince Carter for MVP?

One last time: 'Extended Period of Time' = 'last 10-15 games' . Clear?

first it's stats and win totals. Then Matthew showed you the stats

now it's which player could stay at en elite level if the other one was out?

No, it's about who actually carries teh team's offense. You wish to attempt and quantify that, be my guest. From the meager glimpse of the 5 games I've seen, Kidd still 'carries the Nets' offense into victory'. I hope this is clearer.

What are you talking about? Vince has played in 88 games for the nets!

See above.

Are you kidding me VC for MVP? Hes had some decent nights but thats it. I can think of so many other players I would take over Carter right now.

AI, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Billups, KG, TD, Pierce, Jason Kidd do I have to continue?

I know thats just my opnion, but VC was a "could be" he gets injured to much, well in Toronto mostly probally cuz he didnt "feel like" playing. Now that hes with a conteder hes accually playing.

If you saying VC for MVP, then in that case why not Pierce? Ill compare the 2 look:

Paul Pierce 26.5ppg || VC 25.8ppg - Pierce
Pierce 7.5rpg || VC 6.0rpg - Pierce
Pierce 4.6apg || VC 4.1apg - Pierce
Pierce 1.23spg || VC 1.13spg - Pierce
Pierce .46bpg || VC .76bpg - VC
Pierce 50%FG || VC 45%FG - Pierce


Pierce clearly dominates statistically. U might say VC's team has a better record, but no its Jason Kidds team he carrys them.

Carter has been the Nets offense since he got there. One he got there, the Nets pretty much had to have him with the ball every play or there'd go their offense. Now, even with RJ there, the offense goes through Vince and RJ gets his points off passes made by VC being double teamed, passes on the break created by Kidd or Carter, and off put-backs off rebounds all in the flow of the game.

The reason for the Nets 10-game winning streak was Nets players telling Carter he should be more selfish with the basketball and RJ telling him to not worry about RJ getting touches or points. So Carter's been doing that and the Nets have been riding off his back since. Also, the Nets have been running more, which really helps RJ who isn't much of a create your shot/isolation type player like Vince Carter is.

One last time: 'Extended Period of Time' = 'last 10-15 games' . Clear?

Ok, the last 10 games for Vince:
33.5 ppg (46 fg %, 45% 3pt), 5.9 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.1 spg

How is that not carrying the nets during the last 10 games? look at the ppg and shooting perecentages.

AI, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Billups, KG, TD, Pierce, Jason Kidd do I have to continue?

With the exception of Duncan and Billups, Vince's team has the best record of the bunch. I dont see you using the help factors with Duncan and Billups and the star teamates they have, so that leaves me to believe you are biased against Vince. This is backed up by your stupid statement of "I know thats just my opnion, but VC was a "could be" he gets injured to much, well in Toronto mostly probally cuz he didnt "feel like" playing. Now that hes with a conteder hes accually playing.". Are you forgetting Chauncey's very rocky begining to his career? You dont use that against him, so why use it against vince?

And Jason Kidd doesnt carry them. He did in 2002 and 2003, but this is a very different team. And kidd really doesnt help Carter in terms of his scoring. Kidd helps subpar players who cant create their own shot by giving them open catch and shoot opportunities. Vince can create against anyone in the league.

Kidd finding players who can't create for themselves means you can't double team carter

Ok, the last 10 games for Vince:
33.5 ppg (46 fg %, 45% 3pt), 5.9 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.1 spg

How is that not carrying the nets during the last 10 games? look at the ppg and shooting perecentages.

As I have stated repeatedly, stats only play half teh part. But I still consider Kidd's 16ppg - 10apg and 7rpg more important stats to a winning team. Sure, somebody has to carry the scoring load, but 'carrying the scoring load' and 'carrying the offense' are two totally different things. At least that's what the coaches say.

If your point all along was that VC is carrying the Nets' scoring load, then we agree. If not, then we merely agree to disagree. At least I do.

Now that hes with a conteder hes accually playing.

Carter's the reason they're a contender in the first place!

Carter's the reason they're a contender in the first place!

Okay, food for thought: Take Kidd out now with an injury. Where will the Nets go?

Alternate scenario: Take VC out with injury: Where will the Nets go?

Depending on what you answer, you give your answer to out 'carrying' debate.

both cases are bad for the nets but without kidd they will be in last place soon

The Nets were a contender w/o Carter! Carter is good, but Kidd is more consistent, better team leader, and hes a better player.

*Warning-The Following Content is a lil Biased, being that Carter is my favourite player *

Well to see who's the Nets most valuable player, you really don't have to look beyond Carter's play. At the start of the season, Carter was being "passive"(not really the right word) and was trying to get his teammates involved. The result was a 9-12 losing record, and then when Carter changed his play, to be more dominant, the Nets became more dominant as well going on a 10-1 spurt. I believe Billups will take it tho, its about time he gets the respect he deserves

Also Pierce cant be considered for MVP with Boston's current 14 and 21 record. It doesnt matter if he is doing better than Carter statswise, Carter's team is doing much better, giving him the nod for MVP consideration

And even though Kidd has no doubt had a better career than Carter(success wise) and is BY FAR a better leader than Carter was, is or ever will be, as of right now, there is no doubt that Carter is the better player. Think about it this way, teams are more worried about Carter can do to them than what Kidd can do to them (not taking anything away from Kidd, i believe he's amazing), and also when Carter has a bad night, the Nets are more vulerable than when Kidd has a bad night.

Vince Carter is still as overated as he used to be.

Yeah, leading his team to a season high 10 game winning streak proves absolutely nothing...

The lowest amount of points Vince has scored during the 10 game winning streak was 21. I think thats pretty impressive and it shows that he's been a hell of a lot more agressive than he was the first few games of the season.

Jefferson comment really hit Carter

i think vince is more important than kidd right now... kidd is right now playing second fiddle to vince(and willing to)... hes at the downside of his career due to his knees... the only way we can prove who is more valuable is take out one player at a time for 10 games and see their record...

I don't get this, you take either player out, and the team goes to mediocrity and suckiness, they'd have the worst supporting cast in the league next to Houston without either Yao or Tmac, and even worse. Carter would get them more wins because they'd need the scoring more than playmaking to guys who can't do as much with getting open shots. Kidd wouldn't have too many finishers to have his playmaking be as effective.

If you look at their +- numbers on the team, Carter's is +17.8, and Kidd's is +10.6. When Carter is on the court, they're +5.4, when he's off, they're -12.4. When Kidd is on the court, they're +3.3, when he's off, they're -7.3.

Now we look at a scenario where you put Kidd on a team like the Suns with shooters and finishers, and Carter seperately on the same team, and Kidd would get them more wins. Not that Carter wouldn't win, they'd both win, but Kidd's team would be a 60 win team, and Carter's a 50 win team. In a situation where you need a scoring option, and if you can give them maybe one shooter, and some defensive guys, Carter would win you more a games.

I know I started this thread, but the Kidd vs. Carter debate is interesting and had me thinking.

Carter has been the standout guy, but if I had to choose the more important person, I'd say Kidd. The reason is that the Nets have TWO ultra-athletic slashers, but only one playmaking point guard.

Jefferson can do some of the things Vince can do, definitely not all, but some. No one on the Nets can do anything Kidd does...