What happened to Ginobili?

[Andrew]

I don't believe he's overrated because of his performance so far this season. As I said before, as with many individuals who start moving towards the upper tier of players in the league he's been immediately branded "awesome" rather than "really good". To say he's right up there at the same level as Duncan, McGrady, KG, Kobe etc is overrating him in my opinion.

[J@3]

WTF??? A guy wins a title mostly on his own, becomes unstoppable and elevates his game during the most critical stretch of teh season, carries a lacklustre Duncan to another ring, and now because his average in ppg is 5 down because he is INJURED, he has become overrated?

Way to go, people...

Mostly on his own? Even if he did deserve the finals MVP, it was only just. Him and Duncan were equally important in that series, actually Duncan moreso because Gino vanished in the middle of the series. I don't really know of any other "unstoppable" players who are struggling to get 15 a game.

[Matt]

WTF??? A guy wins a title mostly on his own, becomes unstoppable and elevates his game during the most critical stretch of teh season, carries a lacklustre Duncan to another ring, and now because his average in ppg is 5 down because he is INJURED, he has become overrated?

Last time i recall, it was Robert Horry who made the shots that count. Like jae said, he dropped off the face of the earth in the middle of the series.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Him and Duncan were equally important in that series, actually Duncan moreso because Gino vanished in the middle of the series.

Yeah,right, and where was Duncan in the Finals, then, taking out the last game, that is?

I don't really know of any other "unstoppable" players who are struggling to get 15 a game.

Think of an injured Shaq... just remeber some stretches of last season.

Last time i recall, it was Robert Horry who made the shots that count. Like jae said, he dropped off the face of the earth in the middle of the series.

And like I said, TD was a ghost as well, not to mention thathis averages dipped throughout last season, including his percentages. I huess that only makes his an 8-year wonder, right?

[J@3]

Research is fun. o-t = offensive/total rebounds.

Game 1:

Code: Select all

                   min   m-a   m-a   o-t   a  pf   pts
T Duncan            41 10-22   4-5  6-17   2   2   24
E Ginobili          39 10-16   4-4   3-9   2   3   26

Game 2:

Code: Select all

                   min   m-a   m-a   o-t   a  pf   pts
T Duncan            37  5-10   8-9  3-11   1   2   18
E Ginobili          32   6-8 11-13   1-3   7   3   27

Game 3:

Code: Select all

                   min   m-a   m-a   o-t   a  pf   pts
T Duncan            38  5-15   4-4  3-10   4   3   14
E Ginobili          29   2-6   2-2   0-4   0   4    7

Game 4:

Code: Select all

                   min   m-a   m-a   o-t   a  pf   pts
T Duncan            39  5-17   6-9  3-16   2   2   16
E Ginobili          32   4-9   3-4   0-4   3   3   12

Game 5:

Code: Select all

                   min   m-a   m-a   o-t   a  pf   pts
T Duncan            48 11-24  4-11  8-19   2   3   26
E Ginobili          44  5-16   5-5   3-6   9   4   15

Game 6:

Code: Select all

                   min   m-a   m-a   o-t   a  pf   pts
T Duncan            40  8-14  5-10  5-15   1   2   21
E Ginobili          41  7-17   5-8  1-10   3   3   21

Game 7:

Code: Select all

                   min   m-a   m-a   o-t   a  pf   pts
T Duncan            42 10-27   5-6  5-11   3   2   25
E Ginobili          35  8-13   5-5   0-5   4   3   23

Where was Duncan? Averaging 17ppg/14rpg while Ginobili lagged behind with 15ppg/5rpg. It's clear that he vanished right in the middle of the season, and Duncan easily held his own bar that 14/10 game.

[Null17]

I don't believe he's overrated because of his performance so far this season. As I said before, as with many individuals who start moving towards the upper tier of players in the league he's been immediately branded "awesome" rather than "really good". To say he's right up there at the same level as Duncan, McGrady, KG, Kobe etc is overrating him in my opinion.

This is pretty much what I was gonna say.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Step-by-step analysis is even more fun:


Chack the stats you posted, for reference:


Game 1: Both had very good games. Tie.


Game 2: Ginobili far better. Gino 1-0


Game 3: Ginobili is crap, but TD ain't better... 5/15??? . Still Gino 1-0


Game 4: Both crap. Don't give me any crap about TD's 16-16 statline, because that 5/17 from the field speaks volumes... . Still Gino 1-0



Game 5: Duncan far better: Tie 1-1 (But still, Rob was the better player on the court this day... )



Game 6: Both good. Tie 1-1


Game 7: Both good, despite TD's horrid 10/27 from teh field. In teh end, tie 1-1



You say Ginobili disappeared in teh middle of teh series. How the hell is TD any different? The only difference between the two is that Duncan had a better game 5 and Manu a better game 2. And since TD was SUPPOSED to lead all along, it's natural that in the end the focus of fine performance went to Ginobily, since he had an equal if not greater part to the Spurs winning this series as Duncan.

[maes]

Reality check, let's realize that Ginobli averaged 10 shot attempts last year compared to Kobe's 20 shot attempts.

Hypothetically, if Tim Duncan dropped dead last year and so Ginobli took as many shot attempts as Bryant, he'd be averaging 32.0 ppg. And for a guy who isn't touching the ball all that much between Parker & Duncan, he still dished 3.9 assists per game.

He was also the #1 clutch player as rated by the stat monkeys at 82games.com, in terms of total points, assists, and defense in clutch minutes.

http://www.82games.com/clutchplay3.htm

All right, a lot of people would balk at the notion of Manu Ginobili as the NBA's most clutch player. The facts though are he is very productive on offense (#6 in the league in points per minute during clutch stages), draws an incredible number of shooting fouls (#8 and the top perimeter player), knocks down the free throws (81%), creates his own shot (only 8% of his clutch FGM are assisted), holds his counterpart to sub-par performance (.342 eFG and only 1.9 Assists to 3.1 Turnovers)

This will not sway Kobe Bryant fans any, who are still reveling in his incredible recent performance in the 4th quarter against Charlotte. That however is the problem in a nutshell -- people remember the game where he's brilliant, and forget the games (yes, plural) where he falls short. Let's state it one more time, Kobe is a good clutch player, but not currently the best. For further evidence that Kobe is not infallible, you might want to check out his 03-04 playoff clutch efforts, when he had a Field Goal Percentage of, ahem, 28%...

[J@3]

Step-by-step analysis is even more fun:


Chack the stats you posted, for reference:


Game 1: Both had very good games. Tie.


Game 2: Ginobili far better. Gino 1-0


Game 3: Ginobili is crap, but TD ain't better... 5/15??? . Still Gino 1-0


Game 4: Both crap. Don't give me any crap about TD's 16-16 statline, because that 5/17 from the field speaks volumes... . Still Gino 1-0



Game 5: Duncan far better: Tie 1-1 (But still, Rob was the better player on the court this day... )



Game 6: Both good. Tie 1-1


Game 7: Both good, despite TD's horrid 10/27 from teh field. In teh end, tie 1-1

That is probably the most biased, dodgy analysis I have ever seen. If you had done it properly it would've ended up Duncan 5-2 or something along those lines. How do you just not count the games where they both play bad?

Ginobily, since he had an equal if not greater part to the Spurs winning this series as Duncan.

You do gymnastics now? That's one hell of a backflip...

WTF??? A guy wins a title mostly on his own, becomes unstoppable and elevates his game during the most critical stretch of teh season, carries a lacklustre Duncan to another ring

Yeah,right, and where was Duncan in the Finals, then, taking out the last game, that is?

When it's obvious that the stats tell an entirely different story. Ginobili could've taken the Finals MVP and not many people would have complained, but he hardly CARRIED Duncan and he hardly won the title on his own. Give me a break.

[Matt]

Hypothetically, if Tim Duncan dropped dead last year and so Ginobli took as many shot attempts as Bryant, he'd be averaging 32.0 ppg. And for a guy who isn't touching the ball all that much between Parker & Duncan, he still dished 3.9 assists per game.

Not quite....there'd be no one to dbl in the post so defences would key in Gino. He's not exactly the hardest guy to stop when you can focus your D on him.

[kinokong]

Reality check, let's realize that Ginobli averaged 10 shot attempts last year compared to Kobe's 20 shot attempts.

Hypothetically, if Tim Duncan dropped dead last year and so Ginobli took as many shot attempts as Bryant, he'd be averaging 32.0 ppg. And for a guy who isn't touching the ball all that much between Parker & Duncan, he still dished 3.9 assists per game.

He was also the #1 clutch player as rated by the stat monkeys at 82games.com, in terms of total points, assists, and defense in clutch minutes.

http://www.82games.com/clutchplay3.htm

All right, a lot of people would balk at the notion of Manu Ginobili as the NBA's most clutch player. The facts though are he is very productive on offense (#6 in the league in points per minute during clutch stages), draws an incredible number of shooting fouls (#8 and the top perimeter player), knocks down the free throws (81%), creates his own shot (only 8% of his clutch FGM are assisted), holds his counterpart to sub-par performance (.342 eFG and only 1.9 Assists to 3.1 Turnovers)

This will not sway Kobe Bryant fans any, who are still reveling in his incredible recent performance in the 4th quarter against Charlotte. That however is the problem in a nutshell -- people remember the game where he's brilliant, and forget the games (yes, plural) where he falls short. Let's state it one more time, Kobe is a good clutch player, but not currently the best. For further evidence that Kobe is not infallible, you might want to check out his 03-04 playoff clutch efforts, when he had a Field Goal Percentage of, ahem, 28%...

let's get this straight, ginobili can't lead a team so it is impossible for him to get 20 shots a game unless duncan and parker drop dead... also i believe that ginobili has a questionable outside shot and not such a shiny shooting percentage.... let's say you have to make a 3pt shot to extend the game into overtime. who would you choose, kobe or ginobili. id choose kobe over ginobili anyday to take that last 3pt shot and im pretty sure that most ppl would also take kobe. how does that make him a clutch player. and name one memorable clutch moment ginobili has had. ill bet that kobe has more clutch shots in the playoffs than ginobili has in his whole career counting the playoffs.

[air gordon]

Hypothetically, if Tim Duncan dropped dead last year and so Ginobli took as many shot attempts as Bryant, he'd be averaging 32.0 ppg. And for a guy who isn't touching the ball all that much between Parker & Duncan, he still dished 3.9 assists per game.

Not quite....there'd be no one to dbl in the post so defences would key in Gino. He's not exactly the hardest guy to stop when you can focus your D on him.

not quite. ginobili is able to get in the lane easily with or without TD in the game, especially since the nba rules don't allow handchecking on the perimeter anymore. read the stats the maes took from 82games.com lol.

let's get this straight, ginobili can't lead a team so it is impossible for him to get 20 shots a game unless duncan and parker drop dead... also i believe that ginobili has a questionable outside shot and not such a shiny shooting percentage.... let's say you have to make a 3pt shot to extend the game into overtime. who would you choose, kobe or ginobili. id choose kobe over ginobili anyday to take that last 3pt shot and im pretty sure that most ppl would also take kobe. how does that make him a clutch player. and name one memorable clutch moment ginobili has had. ill bet that kobe has more clutch shots in the playoffs than ginobili has in his whole career counting the playoffs.

how would we know he can't lead a team? he hasn't had the chance yet. besides, parker is a shoot first point guard so who cares about that punk. that guy in LA has lead his team to the lottery...

lol ginobili's TS% last year was a blishering 60.9, ahead of bryant's 56.3. if you want to just compare stats you can understand- ginobili's fg% and 3pt% was 47% and 34% respectively. and yes it was better then #8's 45% and 31.5%. what's that about a questionable shot and not shiny shooting %?

as for the rest, you should read the article before you get so defensive

[shadowgrin]

Yeah, I wish he would have come to the NBA when he got drafted in 1999

Then he would have been a total bust and cut from the roster of any NBA team after 2 years max.
He deferred going to the NBA because he felt then that he wasn't ready yet. While out of the NBA he improved his game. Look at the results now.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

How do you just not count the games where they both play bad?

Count them? To whose favor should I count them, exactly?

You do gymnastics now? That's one hell of a backflip...

Actually, I do. And where's the backflip? That was my point all along... Maybe you should watch more gymnastics...

I'll give you a break. maybe that will help you see more clearly, mate...

[EGarrett]

wins a title mostly on his own, becomes unstoppable and elevates his game during the most critical stretch of teh season, carries a lacklustre Duncan to another ring,

Ginobily, since he had an equal if not greater part to the Spurs winning this series as Duncan.

Statement A does not equal Statement B. That's your backflip.

By the way, your analysis of Duncan and Ginobili's performances was extremely inaccurate to say the least. No offense though, we all have our biases.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Statement A does not equal Statement B. That's your backflip.

Statement B is only an understatement of statement A.

By the way, your analysis of Duncan and Ginobili's performances was extremely inaccurate to say the least. No offense though, we all have our biases.

Believe you me, if I were to be biased, I would be in Duncan's favor...

[cklitsie]

D-Weaver, maybe you should bring in good arguments now instead of posting non-funny remarks with fifty thousand laughing smilies?

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

D-Weaver, maybe you should bring in good arguments now instead of posting non-funny remarks with fifty thousand laughing smilies?

I made my arguments, alright. To each his own, as always. Maybe you should "Desist, Knave!" instead.

Oh, and removing the big pole from the ass will work wonders, too.

No, wait, wrong smiley:

[fgrep15]

I'm not sure what stats you're expecting from a guy playing only 29 MPG. He's never gotten minutes, they don't need him to play big minutes in order for them to win in the regular season, and with Ginobili's style of play, maybe Pop feels he'll get worn out come playoff time where he was still only playing 33 MPG.

Ginobili playing about 40 MPG is a 20-5-5 guy. Ginobili is better than J-Rich and Hughes or whoever else someone said because those guys haven't proven they're first options either.

not quite. ginobili is able to get in the lane easily with or without TD in the game, especially since the nba rules don't allow handchecking on the perimeter anymore. read the stats the maes took from 82games.com lol.

His clutch play is not the same thing as him being a first option. Teams don't double or key on him in crunch time, and when he drives you're so afraid he'll dish off to Duncan that you're help defense is reluctant. Happens with about every good big man though.

Manu's shooting averages last season with Duncan out were about 39.8% FG and 31.3% 3PT [can't remember exactly], he averaged the same amount of PPG because he was taking more shots. Also he wasn't getting first option defense, just normal single coverage.

EDIT: To be more exact:
13 games: 16.1 PPG | 5.2 RPG | 3.8 APG | 2.2 TPG | 1.7 A/T | .399 FG% | .313 3PT% | .739 FT% | .506 TS% | 29.2 MPG

[Emiliano]

D-Weaver, maybe you should bring in good arguments now instead of posting non-funny remarks with fifty thousand laughing smilies?

Why aren't his arguments good? Because you don't agree with him?

Anyways, Ginobili is a great player. Duncan is a great player. They both (imo) need each other to be at their best this season and in the playoffs. I don't like the fact that stats make such big differences. Stats don't tell much except a couple numbers. It's the actual game-changing abilities that makes players special.

[Fenix]

Judging by Emiliano's sign, Ginobili has a much stronger right arm. Funny, considering he's a lefty. Yes, I'm a very lonely kid .

[shadowgrin]

Yes, I'm a very lonely kid

You must have ran out of hair care products.

[baseline bum]

Yeah, I wish he would have come to the NBA when he got drafted in 1999

He was nowhere close to being NBA-ready in 1999. Spurs GM RC Buford called him the worst defender he'd ever seen when he scouted him in Argentina, and as legend goes the only reason he was picked was because RC saw him go like 10-10 from the 3-point line in a game where they were scouting someone else. He didn't become that good of a player until going to Kinder Bologna.

Ginobili isn't a Wade or a LeBron because he can't play the kind of minutes a superstar has to (Manu's not able to play more than 30 minutes per consistently), but in pressure situations there is no one else I'd rather have on the Spurs. He's one of the best passing guards in the league, and since adding the 3-point shot last season he's become one of the toughest covers in the league off the dribble.

Dude singlehandedly brought the Spurs back from 17 down in the 4th to win a game in Phoenix last season, he had the game-winning assist to Duncan in game 6 vs Seattle, the game-winning assist to Horry in game 5 of the Finals, the assist to Horry that put the Spurs up for good in game 2 vs Phoenix last year right after Nash hit a backbreaking three to tilt the game in Phoenix's favor... then he closed the door on Phoenix by hitting a crazy spinning layup and step back jumper on the next two possessions. No Spurs fan will forget the 15 he dropped on Detroit in the fourth quarter of game 1 of the Finals, or when he dunked over Ben Wallace to put the Spurs up for good in game 7 as well as hitting the layup that iced the game right after Bowen blocked Billups' three.

[J@3]

D-Weaver, maybe you should bring in good arguments now instead of posting non-funny remarks with fifty thousand laughing smilies?

Why aren't his arguments good? Because you don't agree with him?

Why are his arguments good? Because you do agree with him?

[Emiliano]

Dude singlehandedly brought the Spurs back from 17 down in the 4th to win a game in Phoenix last season, he had the game-winning assist to Duncan in game 6 vs Seattle, the game-winning assist to Horry in game 5 of the Finals, the assist to Horry that put the Spurs up for good in game 2 vs Phoenix last year right after Nash hit a backbreaking three to tilt the game in Phoenix's favor... then he closed the door on Phoenix by hitting a crazy spinning layup and step back jumper on the next two possessions. No Spurs fan will forget the 15 he dropped on Detroit in the fourth quarter of game 1 of the Finals, or when he dunked over Ben Wallace to put the Spurs up for good in game 7 as well as hitting the layup that iced the game right after Bowen blocked Billups' three.

All those moments were amazing. I remember watching every sinlge one of those games. Simply amazing.