Top 10 perimeter defenders?

[GloveGuy]

That's right. The guy's smart as hell. Plus, respect of the referee is often overlooked and Payton definitely has that.

lol wtf so you're agreeing with me that if Gary Payton was dead, you'd be still be naming on the league's current best defenders list

smarts, craftiness, breaks from the refs are irrelevant if you're not alive

glove- you seldom post here anymore but you sure let it be known when you do post that you are in a fantasy world when it comes to Gary Payton

Joking. But the guy's still got some left in him. I mean, after one playoff series where he received zero help when trying to guard the pick-and-roll, he's gone from the Glove to the Mitten? It's not fair. Yeah, he can't guard the quicker PGs anymore(though he gave Allen Iverson a headache a few games ago), but the guy's still better than the majority of the point guards out there -- on both ends of the floor.

Lets be real, his absence from everyone's list is because of ONE playoff series, for which he was unfairly blamed. I do have a bias, but it doesn't mean that my opinions should be automatically dismissed.

And I was kidding in saying that GP in a wheelchair > 75% of the other PGs.

[Matt]

paytons only offensive move these days is posting up little guys. other than that he's just a spot up shooter.

[magius]

1. artest
2. bowen
3. prince
4. battier
5. hassell
6. iguodala
7. diaw
8. tmac
9. marion
10. kobe
11. kirilenko
12. kidd

[Amphatoast]

im suprised few have iverson in there list. Year in and out he is one of the top players in steal.

[magius]

don't have iverson there because of his lack of diversity on the type of player he can guard. i think his good defense PER is attributed to the fact that usually the guy he has to guard is the guy guarding him (the opponent point), hence the guy expends all his effort on trying to d up ai leaving very little for his offense. regardless i think he has good d, i just don't like his versatility.

[air gordon]

Joking. But the guy's still got some left in him. I mean, after one playoff series where he received zero help when trying to guard the pick-and-roll, he's gone from the Glove to the Mitten? It's not fair. Yeah, he can't guard the quicker PGs anymore(though he gave Allen Iverson a headache a few games ago), but the guy's still better than the majority of the point guards out there -- on both ends of the floor.

Lets be real, his absence from everyone's list is because of ONE playoff series, for which he was unfairly blamed. I do have a bias, but it doesn't mean that my opinions should be automatically dismissed.

And I was kidding in saying that GP in a wheelchair > 75% of the other PGs.

yeh you sure have a bias and it clouds your judegement. c'mon man, he's better then the majority of the point guards in the league? lol he wouldnt even be starting if williams was healthy

[Drex]

(though he gave Allen Iverson a headache a few games ago

I saw the game and Iverson blew past him many times. Every time he wanted he got to the rim and scored (but Shaq was there so the Sixers still lost )

[Matt]

i watched that too....AI had no problems at all.

Payton is long gone off the face of the earth.....a bench guy for sure.

[GloveGuy]

paytons only offensive move these days is posting up little guys. other than that he's just a spot up shooter.

First off, he's anything but a spot-up shooter. That's just the role he's been given over the last few years where his biggest weakness is utilized. His post-up game is as good as it's ever been. Keep in mind, he's the best post-up point guard this generation has seen. It's a move that wasn't utilized enough in LA and Boston.

yeh you sure have a bias and it clouds your judegement. c'mon man, he's better then the majority of the point guards in the league? lol he wouldnt even be starting if williams was healthy

To start, it doesn't matter who starts the game, but who finishes it. Jason Williams has found himself on the bench during close fourth quarters many times this year. Payton could be starting on other teams. He could've stuck with Boston and started there. Look at some of the starting point guards in this league, then come back and tell me that Gary Payton couldn't start over them. It's been a debate amongst Heat fans that now with O'Neal back who should be starting, since Williams would work best with the high-tempo second unit while Payton can run a fluid half-court offense.

I saw the game and Iverson blew past him many times. Every time he wanted he got to the rim and scored (but Shaq was there so the Sixers still lost )

I saw a good team effort being made by the Heat to send Iverson to the line. I also saw a lot of ticky-tack fouls being called on the Payton and the Heat in Iverson's favor. Ignoring the fact that he's arguably the quickest player in the league, I'd say Payton did fine on him.

Payton is long gone off the face of the earth.....a bench guy for sure.

The guy's scored in double figures for six of the last seven games(scored 9 in the single figure game). I'd hardly call him "off the face of the earth". The way I see it, he can still abuse teams down low, he can still play good defense, and he can still shoot a good percentage for point guards. Dead? Not at all.

[bigh0rt]

Maybe not dead, but certainly not better than a majority of starting PGs in the league. Saying that is equal to saying he's a Top 14 PG, which he simply isn't. There's maybe 5 teams he could legitimately start for, and those are teams trying to move to youth because they suck so they have no room for him or his salary anyway.

Payton was once a great Point Guard. He was once a top notch post-up guard. He was once a top defender in the NBA. He's none of those things anymore, but he's got a ton of experience, and still plays some quality ball. But he's a shell of his former Seattle self, and any attempt to deny that logic is clouded judgement, because The Glove's best days are long gone.

[GloveGuy]

Maybe not dead, but certainly not better than a majority of starting PGs in the league. Saying that is equal to saying he's a Top 14 PG, which he simply isn't. There's maybe 5 teams he could legitimately start for, and those are teams trying to move to youth because they suck so they have no room for him or his salary anyway.

Payton was once a great Point Guard. He was once a top notch post-up guard. He was once a top defender in the NBA. He's none of those things anymore, but he's got a ton of experience, and still plays some quality ball. But he's a shell of his former Seattle self, and any attempt to deny that logic is clouded judgement, because The Glove's best days are long gone.

You're mis-quoting me, son.

I said he's better the majority of the point guards out there. Did I say starting point guards?

Plus, I think he's still a top-notch post-up guard. His offensive repetoire used to be so much more, but that's basically all he has now. One-on-one he will kill smaller point guards, and when he's doubled, it usually results in an open shot for someone else.

I know that Payton's on the downside of his career. I know he's just a shell of what used to be a top-five point guard of all time. The thing that pisses me off though is that people's opinions on him are based on false logic. Just because he was guarding Chauncey Billups, doesn't mean we should put all the blame on him for Billups' MVP series. It's very easy to blame the aging point guard, but it was really Shaquille O'Neal who would fail to step up on the pick-and-roll plays.

You can say I'm biased, I'll admit it, but when the majority of the "un-biased" opinions are skewed by what they want to believe, rather than what's real, I'd say my biased opinion should hold some value.

[air gordon]

that's just lame. factoring ALL of the point guards in the league, not just starters. Payton would be even more pathetic if he wasn't better then most backup PG's

Keep in mind, he's the best post-up point guard this generation has seen

payton is from the 90's generation. wade and francis post game runs circles around the Glove

To start, it doesn't matter who starts the game, but who finishes it. Jason Williams has found himself on the bench during close fourth quarters many times this year. Payton could be starting on other teams. He could've stuck with Boston and started there.

so basically he's become a "role" player. he's no longer good enough to be on the floor for starters minutes. he's a point guard that can't guard point guards. not a lot of teams can cover up that weakness. playing at the end of games doesn't make him the better player. relief pitchers/closers are not the best pitchers in the pitching staff

He could've stuck with Boston and started there. Look at some of the starting point guards in this league, then come back and tell me that Gary Payton couldn't start over them.

boston brought in 10 pg's this past offseason, you can't seriously think Payton was in their teams plan as the starter. and you tell me what other teams were courting Payton to be their starting PG.

It's been a debate amongst Heat fans that now with O'Neal back who should be starting,

Williams is posting career numbers in scoring, fg%, ft%, and 3pt%. those would be even better when he plays with the fatman

the opinions of payton are what they are because of the player payton has become, not because of some playoff series 10 years ago, you're just being defensive about it

i'm not trying to trash payton- he's still a useful bench player. but your opinions are biased and it's nauseating. get a room with the glove using that value you think they hold

[GloveGuy]

that's just lame. factoring ALL of the point guards in the league, not just starters. Payton would be even more pathetic if he wasn't better then most backup PG's

Well it's what I said.

payton is from the 90's generation. wade and francis post game runs circles around the Glove

Yeah maybe now, but I'd still say that a Glove in his prime had a better post game than either, not even considering that Wade's a shooting guard and Francis practically is too.

so basically he's become a "role" player. he's no longer good enough to be on the floor for starters minutes. he's a point guard that can't guard point guards. not a lot of teams can cover up that weakness. playing at the end of games doesn't make him the better player. relief pitchers/closers are not the best pitchers in the pitching staff

Obviously he's a role player. But since when do "role" players don't start? Since when can't they start? The Heat have great depth, anyone will admit that, and it's pretty safe to say that Gary Payton is the best point guard coming off the bench. But just because he does come off the bench, doesn't mean he can't start. He's been starting the last seven games and it'd be stupid to say that he hasn't been able to hold his own out there.

And you cannot underestimate the importance of being in the game at the end, opposed to being in at the beginning. What it shows is smart(er) decision-making, clutch(er) play, and (better) ability to remain composed and run a half-court offense when it matters the most. Your baseball comparison is weak.

boston brought in 10 pg's this past offseason, you can't seriously think Payton was in their teams plan as the starter. and you tell me what other teams were courting Payton to be their starting PG.

It was clear that Payton wasn't coming back. Reason why they brought in point guards to try and fill his spot. But had he come back, I have no doubt that he would have been able to start over Delonte West, along with continuing his mentoring of him and Marcus Banks, and the newcomer, Orien Greene(who, BTW, is becoming quite a perimeter defensive presence himself).

Williams is posting career numbers in scoring, fg%, ft%, and 3pt%. those would be even better when he plays with the fatman

I have no doubt that Williams would produce better, but would the first unit produce better? Look, it's just skepticism, but many would agree that Payton is a better fit in the half-court offense while Williams is better in the fast-break and those are the two factors that separate the first and second unit.

the opinions of payton are what they are because of the player payton has become, not because of some playoff series 10 years ago, you're just being defensive about it

See, I would like to think that. I know what he's become, but quite frankly, I'm not going to watch him be bashed by the new generation of fans who will only judge him by what they saw from that series. If you're not going to say that that series hurt his legacy and reputation, you can just stop posting, because it is no secret that after that series, there was a "blame Gary Payton" bandwagon going on through forums and the media. And assuming that a majority of these people are unable to watch Celtics games from last year and the latest Heat games or even appreciate a textbook half-court offense, I'd say that their opinion is skewed by what is false.

[air gordon]

sorry- not in a gracious mood to do the quote thing this time around hehe. i hope you can follow...

it's what you said- then it's a stupid argument to use to try and bolster his value

he's starting by default. yeh he can start. so could dorrell wright. it's a moot point. there is some value in payton being in at the end of games but that doesn't make him the better point guard- otherwise he'd be playing the 2nd most minutes on the team like Jason Williams

don't like my baseball reference? too bad because it's legit. relief pitchers started their careers as starters. for some reason or another, mostly because they weren't good enough to be a starter anymore, they went to the bullpen. some long relievers are asked to do some spot starts but it's not a permanent thing. that's just like Payton.

i think you have it all wrong. the celts didn't want him back unless it was a reserve role. they brought in all those PG's to fill their need of a starting material PG. and if payton had come back and the celts would be dumb enough to start him, the team would have to revert to putting a SG on the opposing PG and again place unneccessary pressure on their frontcourt, which was already weak defensively to begin with. additionally Ricky Davis would not have the breakout year he's currently having

you forgot to reply to my request of naming the teams that were courting GP to be their starting pG

lol since when did payton's strength change from uptempo to half court?? i remember reading your "the lakers need to push the ball more with GP" posts 2 seasons ago

see you are being defensive about it. no one is saying his "legacy"/"reputation" was hurt by some series that happened way back when other then you. back in the 90's he was great but now he's not. the truth is that GP was a lockdown defender and did whatever on offense in his hayday but now he's no longer that. I'm sure you can agree with it, just don't be defensive about it.

if you want to rant, go right ahead, but no one in this particular discussion is mentioning blame Payton for the lakers losing or saying Gary Payton wasn't one of the better Pg's in the 90's because of some series in the playoffs

There's maybe 5 teams he could legitimately start for, and those are teams trying to move to youth because they suck so they have no room for him or his salary anyway.

Payton was once a great Point Guard. He was once a top notch post-up guard. He was once a top defender in the NBA. He's none of those things anymore, but he's got a ton of experience, and still plays some quality ball. But he's a shell of his former Seattle self, and any attempt to deny that logic is clouded judgement, because The Glove's best days are long gone.

i'd have to agree with this

[Matt]

not to use stats exclusively....but on 82games.com it says that when Payton is in hte lineup instead of Williams Heat get out scored

[GloveGuy]

I'm not saying that Payton was better than Williams. I did, however, say that, and some might agree, that he was a better fit in the starting lineup. See, it's not always about putting the best players on the floor at the same time. That's why Antoine Walker doesn't start. It's about find the best combinations and rotations to to find wins.

You're baseball reference still doesn't make sense because it's not like Payton only play fourth quarters. He comes in with the second unit and logs in about 20 minutes per game when Williams is healthy. When he starts, he'll total around 40 minutes. That's quite impressive for a 37 year-old man.

Regardless of what the Celtics' plans were, they clearly didn't line up with Payton's plans so they parted ways. But with the Celtics' current problems at the position, I think might regret not offering Payton another go at starting(this is assuming they didn't, which we don't know). They have so many point guards but the fact is, none of them are good. It's funny.

And it's funny how you mention switching defensive roles, the SG and the PG. Because in the playoffs last year, Payton was doing fine on Johnson, while it was Allen and Davis who couldn't contain Miller. That's why the matchup was changed to Payton on Miller, because the 2-guards couldn't get the job done.

I really wasn't paying attention to the offers Gary Payton was getting over the summer.

Sadly, Payton isn't as good in a high-tempo offense as Jason Williams. It's true. However, he can still run a flawless half-court offense.

Last time I checked, we're the only two people in this discussion. And I know you're knowledgeable enough to realize that Payton isn't dead, or judge him by that Finals series. But it does happen. You will read it in other forums. Go to RealGM. You know how much trash was talked at the Pistons forum when GP signed with the Heat? And it was so unnecessary.

not to use stats exclusively....but on 82games.com it says that when Payton is in hte lineup instead of Williams Heat get out scored

It's about finding the right pieces to the puzzle. Keep in mind that there have only been two games this year where both Williams, Payton, and Shaq have been able to play.

[air gordon]

there's really nothing to discuss here anymore from my side. it's just splitting hairs now

though i do find it peculiar that you were claiming he'd be starting on a lot of teams yet you didn't keep track of what teams were seriously interested in bringing in one of your favorite players in a starting role. ah well...

actually i dont read the pistons forum at realGM. normally just the bulls forum, occassionally the fantasy bball forum and also the draft board around draft time

but if you want to be bothered about what goes over there and rant about it over here, just don't get me involved

[fgrep15]

Ron Artest
Kobe Bryant
Bruce Bowen
Andrie Kerilinko
Andre Igudala
Allen Iverson
Tashan Prince
Ruben Paterson
Garry Payton
Eddie Jones
in no order

I know diehard Iverson fans that wouldn't agree. What they say is that he's an average defender, which is what I've always seen from him. Gambles too much sometimes, if you make him work too much, he will play lazy defense. He doesn't like to run around screens etc defensively, but he's not "bad", just not good.


1) Ron Artest
2) Bruce Bowen
3) Andrei Kirilenko
4) Shane Battier
5) Tayshaun Prince
6) Chris Duhon
7) Earl Watson
8.) Josh Howard [who cares if Kobe scored 62 on them]
9) Richard Jefferson
9b) Andre Iguodala
10) James Posey
10b) Trenton Hassell
10c) Kobe Bryant

I know it's more than 10, but some of these guys have minimal margins between them.

HM: Mickael Pietrus [injuries], Manu Ginobili, Kirk Hinrich, Luol Deng, Chauncey Billups, Marcus Banks, Tracy McGrady

Moving Up: Gerald Wallace, Trevor Ariza, Josh Smith, Caron Butler


I love Eddie Jones, he's a good player, but he's just not at the same level defensively anymore. He's still good, and his smarts help, but I don't know about Top 10. Payton is also still good, but also not at the Top 10 level.

I don't know why people neglect Duhon. This guy is good enough defensively, that they put him on Lebron who has a hugh advantage over him height and strength wise.