Wade or kobe?

[air gordon]

the argument was that you wanted me to prove why i think he is a better shooter. I gave you my opionion with proof to support it.

ok thanks for playing, tell him what he's won, Alex Trebek

metsis has legit points- butler was coming off an injury plagued sophomore season- i believe it was an ankle? i'll give mihm and atkins credit for putting up the #'s increase but you must factor in the increase in minutes as well.

anywho, it's a group effort as to why odom isn't playing well with bryant- odom, bryant, the offense, and maybe even the coaching. though i wil put it out there that it's a little strange that it's not working out between those 2 yet. bryant is regarded by some as one of the best at his position. recently, we've seen other players move on to situations where one of their teammates is one of the best at his position or vice versa and the transistion has been smoother.

iverson-webber
kidd-carter
nash-suns
shaq-wade
crawford-marbury

[Fenix]

maybe you guys should give your definition of a volume shooter...

wade takes an average of over 20 shots to get 25ppg. he gets to the ft line line very often (2nd most) and shoots a respectable 44% from the field. most of this has been without the big guy in the middle

A volume shooter is a guy who shoots too much. If you look at his shooting %, as you already had, it's considerably worse than last year or even a year before. And you could make a pretty strong case that Mourning, Haslem and 'Toine make a better frontcourt than Grant, Odom and Butler. He is launching ill-advised shots, stupid 3pts and - which is getting really obvious - rather taking a shot than passing the ball. I don't believe 'unselfishness' is the still suitable term for him.

And to Shaun - how the hell did you last over 1000 posts around here? One would expect Jae would rape you till now .

[Andrew]

The better player right now? Kobe. The player I'd choose if I were a GM? Wade. If Wade is nowhere near being a top 5 player in the league, he's averaging 25-7-7 and meshing nicely with the rest of the talent on the Heat which has worked to the tune of playoff appearances in his first two seasons, I'd like to see what he can do when he is "on Kobe's level".

[J@3]

Jae's post says nothing...

The fact is that Atkins, Mihm went from bench to starting lineup. Caron Butler battled some difficult injuries during his final Heat season.

Minutes don't increase field goal percentage genius.

As far as Butler's injuries go... his season with the Lakers was the best of his career statistically. Only someone who's incredibly narrow minded and lacks basic understanding of the sport of basketball would assume that all increases in productivity were purely down to minutes. If Kobe was such a horrible team mate and a ball hog, wouldn't their statistics be reduced or remain the same, despite slight increase in minutes?

You can't tell me that playing with a ball hog means that in your extra 5 minutes on the court you get 3 or 4 extra shots per game and shoot them at a good clip. It doesn't happen. If you play with a true ball hog, you get off whatever shots you can, regardless of whether you should take the shot or not, because they're so few. Wouldn't that mean a decrease in field goal percentage?

Playing with Kobe didn't detract from the amount of shots any of those players took. If you feel upto it, go ahead and adjust those numbers to fit the minutes they were playing in their old respective teams.

As I said in my initial post, the statistics prove very little but they hardly weigh in favour of the "Kobe is a bad teammate and a ballhog" argument. Anyways, I'm off to beg for jobs at large gaming companies

[eastinglandboi]

Now thinking about it, how well Wade played with Odom, as Amphatoast mentioned, is a good indicator of how good of a team player Wade is.

Well no, it's a poor indicator of how good a team player someone is. For starters the teams play an entirely different offensive game, it's not like Odom's just doing the same things he did in Miami but wearing a yellow jersey. I don't think anyone can blame Odom's lack of anything on Kobe Bryant.

Still explain to me how a team of not totally developed Wade, Odom and Butler + others can be better than Kobe, Odom, Butler, Atkins whatever?
Talent-wise, the Lakers should be a much better team no? It's not like Odom is doing TERRIBLE so if Kobe is so much better, then why didn't that team win many games? I still think Kobe takes too many shots and has a bad FG%, which makes him a bad team player.
Furthermore, the great ones are supposed to make others better. I doubt anyone really believes that Kobe makes anyone better.

all of u need to remember, it wasnt wade, odom, butler. It was wade, EJ, Odom, EJ was the 2nd most effective player on that roster that year and yet nobody mentions him even thought he's a 3 time all-star and a defensive and offensive force. So wade also had EJ puttin up 17ppg ova around 80 games, and he still manages to average 16-4-4 i think it was, Wade, currently the better player by a fair bit.

[BIG GREEN]

You guys cant seriously be comparing wade to kobe at this point. I dont even have to make a long debate with anyone..kobe has rings..and his stats are better..end of story.

[Matt]

Kobe is superior to any SG in the L by far.

Forget teammates for a second because that argument won't work. Kobe can do all that Wade can and more. Who's the best 4th quarter player in the NBA? Kobe.

[putodelagoa]

I don't understand all this fuss about Bryant, and who he plays with. 2003 Miami Heat team had better depth AND played in the East. Alston, Eddie Jones, Odom a slumping sophomore Butler, a healthier Brian Grant and finally, Dwayne Wade. This is decent. Bryant 2004 year was dreadfull. Lousy team chemistry, terrible system, the worst possible coach for that team. Did Odom regress in his LA comeback? I'm not so sure, as it was more of a problem of establishing roles. The point is you could compete in the East with a good system and Butler and Odom. But not in the West.
This year's Lakers are, talent wise, arguably worse, although they now have a system to become familiar with. Odom does a lot of playmaking, which means he plays further away from the basket, where he seemed to be more effective.

As for Wade, until he becomes a dominant defender and an accurate shooter from the outskirts, he can't be held as a better player than Bryant.

[Cloudy]

the entire lakers team is like...half-dumb... when u watch them play, all u hv in ur mind is what the fuck what the fuck and what the fuck

[John WB]

Kobe Bryant is a top 3 player in the NBA, Dwyane Wade isn't a top 7 player in the NBA.

End story.

Where do you get that from?

If Kobe was a top 3 player in the league, his team wouldn't be last in the division.

How many titles does Shaq have without Kobe?
How many titles does Kobe have without Shaq?
How many titles does Wade have with Shaq?

Doesn't matter. Rings in no way relates to who is better.

About Kobe's numbers... It's not like he's ball-hogging this year, who can he pass the ball to? Odom is the only other one remotely consistent on that sorry team, other than Kwame, who consistently sucks.

Wade has the luxury of sharing the floor whith a bunch of guys that, as flawed as they are, are a few notches above the lakers squad talent wise. It's easier for him to create for others. And he nows he doesn't have to score 40 points against a triple team in order for his team to have a chance to win.
Would anybody on the Lakers, other than Kobe and Odom, start anywhere else in this league?

That's a load of crap. Bottom line is Kobe's a selfish player and he doesn't make anybody around him better.

Kobe has NBA players as his teammates. That should be good enough. Odom is an Olympian. Kobe should be able to use him more than he has. But Kobe jacking up shots doesn't help anyone.

What does all of this prove? Very little, but I find it interesting that despite playing with such a horrible teammate and admitted ballhog, every new Laker apart from Lamar Odom improved statistically all round. None of them had a significant improvement in mpg to warrant all of the statistic improvements... also note that EVERY player's FG% improved and everyone except Odom improved in shot attempts per game..

Looking at this, I'd be more inclined to say that it's not a case of Kobe Bryant not being a good enough teammate to play with Lamar Odom... but Lamar Odom not being a good enough teammate to play with Kobe Bryant.

It means Butler got the same amount of shots he got in Miami than he did in LA, but Odom doesn't. Did the Lakers win? No.

Are they winning now? No.

Jae's post says nothing...

The fact is that Atkins, Mihm went from bench to starting lineup. Caron Butler battled some difficult injuries during his final Heat season.

Basically Odom is the only player that had his status remain the same going from one team to another.

And these guys have never before had as much responsibility as they've had since joining the Lakers... In the pro's that is.

Playing with a ball-hog is a nightmare... That much is for sure... If you don't get the ball and get the responsibility it's pretty hard to stay focused especially through a long period of time. It is just bad for morale when someone keeps on hogging the ball and going for difficult shots rather than giving someone else a shot at it... It is never good. Jordan knew this all too well and he has admitted it to the press too... He has said that he took over only in the fourth quarter so his team mates wouldn't feel so left out. And thus MJ was a player that made it fun for his team mates. It's all about the wins in the end and MJ "sometimes" had to deliver in the end and his team mates recognized that and let him do his thing... Jordan was smart. He understood that this was a team game and that his team mates are hardly totally useless... They play in the NBA for god sakes...

If Kobe were to get it through his thick head that he doesn't have to do everything and would share a little more of the responsibility to his team, I think he would be getting more steals, boards, assists, blocks and would shoot at a higher percentage... As he wouldn't have to excert so much energy on every go... He would have more left in the tank for the closing minutes of the games... He would have happier team mates and happiness is a big thing... The happier the guys, the bette they will play...

Damn, ranting me... I really should stop now, since someone will say that I suck anyways after this post...

Wade and Kobe are good players... I think Wade has the edge right now... He isn't forcing it as much and his team has a better record... They are both good, Wade is in a better team...

Good stuff.

[Riot]

Kobe Bryant is a top 3 player in the NBA, Dwyane Wade isn't a top 7 player in the NBA.

End story.

Where do you get that from?

If Kobe was a top 3 player in the league, his team wouldn't be last in the division.

Ok, but then why did you say this...

How many titles does Shaq have without Kobe?
How many titles does Kobe have without Shaq?
How many titles does Wade have with Shaq?

Doesn't matter. Rings in no way relates to who is better.

So in short, the better player should win games but not rings? What are you trying to say? If rings "in no way relate to who is the better player" than why do the standings?

[John WB]

Because Laker fans always use the rings to say so and so is better.

Horry has 6 rings. I wouldn't use that to say he's better than say.. Rasheed Wallace because he has just one.

Remove Kobe from the Lakers and how many games do they win? They aren't exactly winning many with him.

Remove Steve Nash from the Suns and they probably win none.

The Rockets went 0-8 without Tracy McGrady.

The Heat are struggling right now without Shaq, but still winning games.

How can Kobe be on par or better than these guys when him leaving his team wouldn't affect them as much? And I gurantee you, take Kobe off the Lakers quad now, and they wouldn't be much worse than they are now. How can your favorite NBA player and a top 3 player make so little an affect on his team?

[Riot]

Kobe Bryant is no my favorite NBA player, not even close. I just defend him. I actually hate the Lakers.

The ring thing is effective because Kobe was the main guy (along with Shaq) in the Lakers 3-peat. I just don't understand how you can pull out the standings and say Kobe sucks because his team sucks but then you also say you can't use the ring argument. Because I know you are going to say "Kobe had Shaq", therefore those 3 rings are disqualified. But you don't take into account that the Heat have a way better team than the Lakers.

Lakers aren't a good team, if they were without Kobe they would be a lot worse than they are right now. How could they be better? Is Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown going to start going on tears? I don't think so. Whenever the Lakers win it's because Kobe Bryant has to single-handedly win the game for them. The rest of the team is in a learning curve trying to learn the triangle offense. Kobe already knows it, so he has to take over. Which he is doing.

Lakers are 6-8 and Miami is 9-6. There really isn't that big of a different so far in the season, yet Dwyane Wade has a lot better team around him. So if you want to use that argument, I guess I'll have to disagree with you.

[putodelagoa]

Lakers are 6-8 and Miami is 9-6. There really isn't that big of a different so far in the season, yet Dwyane Wade has a lot better team around him. So if you want to use that argument, I guess I'll have to disagree with you.

Great point, and I think it should put the argument to rest. Mourning, Walker, Payton, Williams, Posey, Simien, are all and each one of them better than the third best player in the Lakers Squad.

Doesn't matter. Rings in no way relates to who is better

Now,That's a load of crap.

[magius]

like andrew said, kobe's better, but if i were a gm id take wade. kobe's more talented, wade's more efficient.

[Riot]

like andrew said, kobe's better, but if i were a gm id take wade. kobe's more talented, wade's more efficient.

Well, if you look at the efficency rating Kobe is about 2 points behind Wade. Kobe does take 9 more shots a game than Wade, but Kobe is also playing 4 more minutes a game than Wade.

Wade has always had a problem with turnovers and he averages about one turnover per game more than Kobe Bryant. Not to mention Kobe is a better defender, Wade is an average defender.

[putodelagoa]

like andrew said, kobe's better, but if i were a gm id take wade. kobe's more talented, wade's more efficient.

No; He's younger and likely to get better, while Bryant is at his prime. That's the only reason I can see for a GM to pick Wade rather than Bryant. ( Well, maybe the player's attitude towards teamates and coaches would suggest that Wade can have less trouble coexisting with other personalities... )

[John WB]

Doesn't matter. Rings in no way relates to who is better

Now,That's a load of crap. [/quote]
How is it a load of crap? Please explain it to me.

[Bang]

You guys cant seriously be comparing wade to kobe at this point. I dont even have to make a long debate with anyone..kobe has rings..and his stats are better..end of story.

Look at this year's stats. Wade has better stats in even REBOUNDS!

[magius]

its not like kobe's turnover numbers are exactly sparkling (4.1 topg per last year versus 4.2 topg of wade), and i personally think his defense is very overrated. kobe also gets a lot more of his points off jumpers compared to wade (78% kobe versus 65% wade), not to mention wade is willing to drive more often even if kobe is capable of doing it as good or better. kobe has never averaged over 6 assists per game or over 47% field goal percentage, wade has done both. i also like the fact that for a young player wade is not in love with the 3, yes he has a poor 3 point percentage but he averages less than one per game over his career and still manages to score 20+ on a better percentage than most. a point is a point.

the fact that kobe is 2 points behind wade in the efficiency rating in the prime of his career is another reason id pick wade if i were a gm.

No; He's younger and likely to get better, while Bryant is at his prime. That's the only reason I can see for a GM to pick Wade rather than Bryant. ( Well, maybe the player's attitude towards teamates and coaches would suggest that Wade can have less trouble coexisting with other personalities... )

No; he's already more efficient and younger and likely to get better. that is why a gm would pick him. attitude of course would be another factor. but, that said, even if wade is more efficient, kobe's obviously still better right now and over a career, but i'd pick wade if i were a gm, get it? neither one can win it alone, so i'd prefer a younger starting point, who's willing to listen and has far less baggage.

[maes]

Wade.

1. He's close to Kobe and still has potential for more improvement, Kobe capped a long time ago.
2. Wade is putting up sick numbers on a very good team, that's much harder to do than put up numbers on a bad team like the Lakers. When you're on a good team, you no longer have to do it all and can focus on your role.

Example: LeBron James' stats is down by a large amount in every single category except scoring, his FG% and PPG are both up. THis is because he doens't have to run down every rebound, he doesn't have to intercept every pass for a steal, he doesn't have to play 42 mpg because he actually has teammates.

Example: Chris Paul is averaging close to what LeBron was his rookie year. They both averaged 5.5 rebounds, LeBron had a few more PPG but Chris Paul has more APG and more Steals. Does that mean Chris Paul = LeBron? No, CP is just on a team where he literally has to do everything to win, including run down rebounds.

If Wade was on a bad team the caliber of the Lakers, i wouldn't be surprised if he got close to averaging a triple double.

[hipn]

How many titles does Shaq have without Kobe?
How many titles does Kobe have without Shaq?
How many titles does Wade have with Shaq?

Doesn't matter. Rings in no way relates to who is better.

So in short, the better player should win games but not rings? What are you trying to say? If rings "in no way relate to who is the better player" than why do the standings?

Umm doesnt Milicic (on Detroit Pistons) have 1 ring? I think he does, but does that make him better than Wade?

Seriosuly rings have nothing to do with whos better, look at VC back when he was with Toronto, when he was a serious superstar and when he used to be just amazing... he doesn't ave a ring, but Ben Wallace does... does it make Ben Wallace better than VC? No, it just means the team was better than Toronto.

You cant win championship rings by yourself, you have to do it with team and thats the only way.

[J@3]

It means Butler got the same amount of shots he got in Miami than he did in LA, but Odom doesn't. Did the Lakers win? No.

Are they winning now? No.

Doesn't matter. Rings in no way relates to who is better.

So in short, the better player should win games but not rings? What are you trying to say? If rings "in no way relate to who is the better player" than why do the standings?

Riot owns you.

[hipn]

A player is not better if he has more rings because rings are won by a team not a person. Who would win? Micahel Jordan and he current Raptors or the current LA Clippers? Who would win inthe playoffs? Who would win in the finals game 7?

BTW, Micahel Jordan and the current Raptors is just an example.

[J@3]

What?