Huge argument with a friend.

[Its_asdf]

For all of you who think Ford isn't one of the top pg's in the league look at his first 2 games this year.He led his team over Iversion's and Kidd's teams which isn't a easy task.Also speed is 1 of the most important factors with a pg , and acording to the gm survey he is the second quickest in the league.

It's his first two games of the year. He still has 80 more to prove that he's good enough to be mentioned with the likes of Jason Kidd, and the chances of that happening are slim.

Get a grip and step back into reality.

[Amphatoast]

For all of you who think Ford isn't one of the top pg's in the league look at his first 2 games this year.He led his team over Iversion's and Kidd's teams which isn't a easy task.Also speed is 1 of the most important factors with a pg , and acording to the gm survey he is the second quickest in the league.

i dunno, after seeing him give 17dimes last night and taking very little shots, i think he is pretty good..
marbury is borderline top 5. he is probably top 5 in 1v1, but team game is questionable

[Matt]

Ford is probably Top 10...in his rookie campaign he showed flashes of brilliance and obviously that has carried into this season.

[boconcio]

Kidd
Davis
Nash
Wade
Hinrich/Arenas/Marbury

this is what i think... but i know i am forgetting some big notch PG there...

[Matt]

i can't understand why people have Hinrich in their top 5....his shooting is iffy, and his D is suspect.

[Amphatoast]

1. Kidd
2. Iverson
3. Nash
4. Davis
5. Wade

marbury, arenas, billups, bibby are notables.

The problem is Marbury hasn't had too much success. If the knicks get 48 wins this year I think people will think of him better.

[Mikki]

1. Kidd
2. Iverson
3. Nash
4. Wade
5. Davis
6. Arenas
7. Marbury
8. Francis
9. Bibby
10. Billups

Marbury would be in my top 5 of Scoring PG's though.

[maes]

not sure i can agree, maes. i like what riot has to say about the PG position.

i think winning does play a little factor in this, but not all.

is parker any better then the best pg's because he's a role player on a championship? he's still a young, erratic, shoot first pg to me, above average PG to me

The Tony Parker fad was a few years ago, and it was well deserved back then, and not just because the Spurs were winning.

http://www.82games.com/comm5.htm

In stat #1, which is pure scoring without regard for letting the other team run right back on score on you, Marbury is up there. #4.

However, when you look at net points (how much does the PG's team score and not let the other team score, ie create a "run") Marbury isn't even on the radar.

The net point (your team's points - other team's points) is the definition of winning a game, and in 2003 the best PGs were Kidd, Francis, Parker. Francis had a high net rating because of his teams defender better with him out there (no surprise, Francis is really a SG imho).

However, last year Parker was as you said, just above average.

[Riot]

I've fallen in love with Gilbert Arenas. I really think he's a top 5 point guard in the league. He creates so much difficulty for the opposing team's defense because of his ability to get into the lane and create his own shot and a shot for his teammates. He can pressure the defense by pushing the ball up the floor. Defensively, he's solid and very strong. He could get better (many people could) but I wouldn't call it a strength or a weakness.

I think Arenas is underrated by many fans. But hell, maybe I'm overrating.

[Amphatoast]

if he continues to play good this season then he will probably win more respect

[Riot]

He's playing Marbury's Knicks right now as we speak. He has 11 points (5-7), 2 rebounds, 0 assists, 3 turnovers, 3 fouls and 1 steal in 13 minutes. Wizards have a 15 point lead.

Marbury has 6 points (2-5), 1 rebound, 1 assist, 1 turnover and no steals in 13 minutes.

[Cable]

I've got Marbury in the fantasy league.

[Drex]

I thought this one was another Mariah Carey thread...

I'd say Marbury is a top 7 PG

[dada]

i think Steve Nash is a bit overrated. What has changed since joining from Dallas? Nothing, he hasn't actually improved, he still plays the same way except the guys around him and Phoenix' system is much better suited to his strengths which gives the effect of "padding" his stats.

I feel many things have changed with Steve Nash since he left Dallas. I believe that consistency is an indicator of improved talent in a player, and he showed flashes of brilliance a number of times in Dallas but it seems like now in Phoenix is when he finally put it all together. He's simply better now because he gives those performances now on a more consistent basis. I dont think there isnt a team in the league who isnt terrified of him in the open court and if you give him too moch room to try and cut off passing lanes he'll kill you with that pull up jumper. We saw how he can turn in on offensively in the last playoffs. I felt he was a top point guard in the league back in his Dallas days also, even though his stats never really showed that, but if you watched Dallas play at that time you would know that they were nothing without him. Why do you think they were so disappointed to lose him? It was just a matter of time before he busted out and Dallas just missed out.

[air gordon]

i can't understand why people have Hinrich in their top 5....his shooting is iffy, and his D is suspect.

how did you come to that conclusion, matt?

heh i'd be the first buls fan to point out holes in hinrich's game but defense is not of them.

on a good day, he's the 10th best pg... maybe

[Matt]

i'm not completely satisfied with his 1 on 1 D though.

[putodelagoa]

Steve Nash is the league's best point guard. He doesn't defend, true, but the fact he can make marginal players look like all-stars by feeding them according to their sthrenghts puts him light years ahead of Marbury.

1. Nash - MVP - and for a good reason, shoots with Stockton-esque accuracy makes everyone better.
2. Kidd - The knee rendered him a step slower, on offense and defense, but still the best defender among top tier pg's. Too bad he's a brick layer.
3. Billups -Best player in a great team. Give him some respect.
4. Iverson. Great and all. Just falls short on the "makes other people better" aspect of his game, wich is a drawback for a PG. He's by far the best of the scoring PG's
5. Mike Bibby. He's the best player on his team, and has been so for a while. Now he just needs to find his shot.
6. Tony Parker. He's too young to be this good. Is there anybody quicker? If he gets consistent from the outside...

7. Arenas
8. Baron Davis
9. Marbury
10. Steve Francis
They've all the talent to be the best. They all share the same problem. None is a true PG.I like none of them.

[Riot]

Tony Parker over Arenas, Davis, Marbury and Francis? Are you kidding?

[Matt]

big no no to Tony Parker...not only does he choke in the playoffs but he's streaky and he gets abused by opposing point men.

[air gordon]

i'm not completely satisfied with his 1 on 1 D though.

so how did you come to this conclusion?

[Riot]

Because he makes stupid plays on the defensive end.

[air gordon]

riot- are you matt's lawyer now hehe? i'd like to hear matt speak for himself on this one. i'd like to hear him explain why he thinks hinrich's D is "suspect" and now "not completely satisfied with his 1 on 1 D"

riot- what "stupid" plays are you referring to? there must be many of them too i'm assuming so you shouldn't have a hard time coming up with them

[magius]

1. kidd - can rack up the 9 apg 6 rpg min under probably any system.

2. nash - he can hit the long ranger at a good percentage, which means he's not primarily a dish and driver, he's like mini stockton without defense, and kidds like mini magic without height (of course their playing styles are different, but indulge me). take your pick. nash is not my number one because he has only had 1 of those type of seasons.

3. wade - the thing is he shoots a much better percentage than iverson, and seems to make people marginally better, which iverson cannot claim.

4. iverson

5. billups - winner

6. baron davis - when he's healthy he seems to lift every team he plays for.

7. mike bibby - i like his fundementals.

8. stephon marbury - the problem is not his talent, its his body language.

9. tony parker - say what you like, but nothing changes the fact that he's got some serious hardware.

10. gilbert arenas - dont care for his game, but he's got talent.

11. steve francis - see above.

12. brevin knight - avery johnson - ish

13. kirk hinrich - decent, crap ass fg% though.

14. andre miller

15. gary payton

16. luke ridnour

17. jason terry

18. jason williams

19. tj ford - ive been up on him since his rookie year, hell since college, so this is not based on a couple of measly games.

20. damon stoudamire - if he could just learn something called shot selection....

i havent seen enough of paul, williams, or felton to judge yet, though deron looks good.

[Riot]

riot- are you matt's lawyer now hehe? i'd like to hear matt speak for himself on this one. i'd like to hear him explain why he thinks hinrich's D is "suspect" and now "not completely satisfied with his 1 on 1 D"

riot- what "stupid" plays are you referring to? there must be many of them too i'm assuming so you shouldn't have a hard time coming up with them

You want me to single handedly pick out stupid plays from random games I've seen him play in? From college all the way to the pros? If I even said any would you remember any of them? I doubt it.

[air gordon]

yeh sure why not? do these plays make him a bad defender though?

opposing coaches praise hinrich for his defense. he has good lateral quickness & defensive instincts. he has good size for a pg making him versatile enough for skiles to trust him to guard the other team's best scorer- pg or sg