Maccabi Juggernaut Hits Toronto

[Cable]

My bad, I thought I saw a link to the boxscore for the Maccabi game, I must have been seeing things. There are boxscores for the other games on NBA.com, but I'll bet you knew that.

[tsherkin]

Toronto versus Maccabi...

Toronto, among the worst teams in the league last year because their defense and rebounding were horrible. They lacked a properly constructed basketball team, chemistry, a co-ordinated offensive system and likewise a co-ordinated defensive system.

This current incarnation of the team lost its best rebounder (Marshall), downgraded at playmaking to upgrade perimeter D (Alston for James) and still has no one consistantly competent at the 5.

The Raptors are inferior to MANY European teams, as I imagine are many of the cellar-dwelling NBA teams. The Knicks wouldn't have beat Maccabi, neither would the Hawks or the Hornets or, or, or...

To simply look at the names on the team and to disparage a club based on the fact that the players were NBA scrubs is outright stupid:

Sometimes, a player needs a certain system to excel. Sometimes, the coach on a team is misusing a player or he's just playing on a team that's too deep.

Compare an NBA cellar team to a team that's won 45 of 51 Israeli titles and many Euro titles, including recently.

Now remember the stylistic differences between the NBA and the Euroleagues. This is a team with excellent chemistry that passes well from every position, hustles and puts forth huge effort all throughout the roster. They can mostly all shoot pretty well and they have been playing together for some time.

The Raptors, by contrast, are riddled with mediocre effort players who are outright bad on defense. They don't always pass well, they have not all played together for several years and their coach has to dumb down their sets to help them out.

Who do you THINK was going to win? That it was a close game is more a testament to Chris Bosh than anything else; the Euroleague is not bad. The major difference is that they are skill-focused instead of athletically focused. That is the major reason why a lot of middle-of-the-pack NBA teams will beat a Euroleague team; massively superior athleticism and isolation skills. Or bigs, our bigs are still better.

But c'mon, hating on the Raptors because of this? Yes, we know they're bad. Quit belaboring the point. Maybe if our star player hadn't been perpetually injured and soft-minded for the 3 years prior to last, we'd have been able to do something. Maybe if our previous GM wasn't such a financial idiot, we'd have done something with our roster. Maybe if Vince's last shot against Philly had fallen, you'd all have to have kept your mouths shut and left us in peace.

The Raptors are no different than a number of other teams in the league; they're down, quit kicking them. They're not the only bad team in the league and they won't stay that way forever. They're still only like 11 years old. In the last 16 years, of the expansion teams that have come into the league, not a single one of them has one a title and, to my memory, only one of them has even made the Finals.

In their short time in the league, the Raptors had success far earlier than Vancouver/Memphis and did not benefit from the presence of Jerry West before the teams switched positions (bad to good, good to bad). They've not enjoyed a draft that brought them Shaquille O'neal or Penny Hardaway (Orlando). In fact, of all the expansion teams in the last little while, the Raptors have been most comparable to Minnesota, except without the benefit of a consistantly healthy superstar player who really cares about the game. We got a player who started out hot and turned into a soft, injury-prone player who went away from his greatest skill before revitalizing himself in New Jersey.

So what the Hell? Raptors haters need to pipe down. Just because it's a Canadian team doesn't make them worse than the teams that finished with winning percentages lower than theirs; it doesn't make the Raptors the worst team in the league.

Losing a pre-season game to the Euroleague champion, even when they were trying to win, doesn't magically make the Raptors the worst team in the league or deserving of more criticism than any other team in the league. S*** happens; the Raptors beat the Jordan-led BULLS in their first season. How about that? They beat the Sonics, too. If a title team can lose to a cellar-dweller, the Raptors can surely lose to a well co-ordinated team with a solid coach and a versatile roster.

Hey #12, the Raptors AREN'T the worst team in the league, that would have been the Hawks. The Hawks, Hornets and Bobcats were all worse than the Raptors, who shared the same record with the Knicks (33-49). Get your facts straight.

thats just embarassing. especially the quotes from rose. for me, it exposes the fact that bosh is basically just an average player putting up good numbers on a horrendously crap team. for me, the guy just doesnt seem to have franchise player material.... and by franchise player material, i dont mean steve francis, i mean winning franchise player material. soon canada will have zero nba teams.

You sir, are completely retarded. Because of one loss, the 5th largest city in North America and its massive fanbase will no longer have a basketball team? Put the pipe down, son.

As for disparaging Bosh, what else COULD he have done? 27 and 12 is not insignificant...

[putodelagoa]

Great statement.
While there's no doubt that any bottom NBA team will have better players, individual skills wise, it doesn't make them an automatic threat to beat a sound and experienced international team. If you had a 7 game series, between the two teams, maybe we would have a better measure of their abilities. The occasional upset against a bigger, better team is a common thing in sports ( think soccer, for starters...), but it rarely happens in a series.

Jalen Rose said

"They played this game like it was their championship game, and rightfully so," Rose said. "Those guys are hungry for NBA jobs. You don't just go to Europe because you're turning down the NBA, you're going to Europe because you want to be in the NBA so when you're standing up against a guy in front of you that's is in the NBA, you want to prove to anybody that's watching that you're NBA-worthy."

Of the topic, didn't the Dominique led Hawks lost a game against the soviet national team?[/quote]

[magius]

You sir, are completely retarded. Because of one loss, the 5th largest city in North America and its massive fanbase will no longer have a basketball team? Put the pipe down, son.

we stopped using pipes a long time ago, gramps.

As for disparaging Bosh, what else COULD he have done? 27 and 12 is not insignificant...

i dunno. win, maybe?

you can say the knicks wouldn'tve won, or the hawks, or charlotte, etc, etc. assumptions, assumptions, assumptions, all you've got is assumptions and ifs and buts. worthless. lets stick to what we do know, why dont we. the raptors didnt win. just the raptors. only the raptors. yes, the toronto raptors. truth hurts.

and im not a canadian hater, i liked the vancouver grizzlies. lets just say ive seen shareef and i've seen chris bosh. this kid has peaked or is close to, he may go jermaine o'neal on me, but i seriously doubt it, more like jonanthan bender with minutes

raptors leave toronto if they continue suck for as long as the grizz did in vancouver.

that toronto lost to a team full of castoff nba players is embarassing, no matter what you say. you dont expect an nhl team to lose to a minor league hockey team, and so to with even the lowly raptors.

[EGarrett]

Sad. Embarrassing.

Is Maccabi going to play any other NBA teams? Like Orlando?

Someone needs to slaughter them so we can make some kind of statement here.

[tsherkin]

we stopped using pipes a long time ago, gramps.

Heh. For point of reference, I'm 21. Probably shouldn't have cracked the "son" line...

i dunno. win, maybe?

One player is nothing, even the greatest of the greats needed good teammates and good coaching to win. You cannot lay anything on Bosh's shoulders if he performed well and his teammates choked it.

assumptions, assumptions, assumptions, all you've got is assumptions and ifs and buts. worthless. lets stick to what we do know, why dont we. the raptors didnt win. just the raptors. only the raptors. yes, the toronto raptors. truth hurts.

"Truth hurts?" What kind of stupid argument is that? Of course the Raptors lost but people are making it out to be a huge deal and it really isn't.

and im not a canadian hater, i liked the vancouver grizzlies. lets just say ive seen shareef and i've seen chris bosh. this kid has peaked or is close to, he may go jermaine o'neal on me, but i seriously doubt it, more like jonanthan bender with minutes

Now who's dealing in ifs and buts, eh? Shareef Abdur-Rahim was never as good on defense as Bosh was playing out of position at C as a ROOKIE... As a sophmore, he showed comparable scoring and rebounding talent and you say he's peaked? That makes no sense. He's young and still learning the game.

raptors leave toronto if they continue suck for as long as the grizz did in vancouver.

EXTRAORDINARILY unlikely, given the fan support, something never present in Vancouver. Theoretically, you could make the same argument about Atlanta and many other cellar-dwelling NBA teams and yet they never leave their cities...

that toronto lost to a team full of castoff nba players is embarassing, no matter what you say. you dont expect an nhl team to lose to a minor league hockey team, and so to with even the lowly raptors.

You just don't know what you're talking about. The Raptors ARE mostly a collection of NBA cast-offs. They are not a cohesive unit, not constructed well, not possessed of any of the major advantages of American basketball except in the form of Chris Bosh, what else do you want from them? They're among the worst teams in the league and they still only lost by 2 because they couldn't hit their foul shots, which is not terribly common for them.

You overstate the significance of one game, no matter the opponent.

[Matt]

hehe, this is the funniest thing ever.

What rules did they play? NBA or Euro?

[magius]

One player is nothing, even the greatest of the greats needed good teammates and good coaching to win. You cannot lay anything on Bosh's shoulders if he performed well and his teammates choked it.

You just don't know what you're talking about. The Raptors ARE mostly a collection of NBA cast-offs. They are not a cohesive unit, not constructed well, not possessed of any of the major advantages of American basketball except in the form of Chris Bosh, what else do you want from them? They're among the worst teams in the league and they still only lost by 2 because they couldn't hit their foul shots, which is not terribly common for them.

1. technically the raptors are not castoffs, considering they are in the nba. if they werent in the nba then they'd be castoffs. they may be castoffs of better teams, but either way they are still in the nba, which logically would mean they are at least slightly superior to those who arent. they lost to the guys who were cast off for them, which kind of says something, huh.

2. lose by 2, lose by 20. you lose, you lose.

One player is nothing, even the greatest of the greats needed good teammates and good coaching to win. You cannot lay anything on Bosh's shoulders if he performed well and his teammates choked it.

yeah, even the greatest of the greats needed good teammates and good coaching to win..... against teams that were actually in their 'supposed' calibre.

Now who's dealing in ifs and buts, eh? Shareef Abdur-Rahim was never as good on defense as Bosh was playing out of position at C as a ROOKIE... As a sophmore, he showed comparable scoring and rebounding talent and you say he's peaked? That makes no sense. He's young and still learning the game.

no more so than you are at this point on this topic. potential? prove it. show me. he's athletic? is he more athletic than stromile swift? defense? he may have the edge over shareef...... then again that may just be pyschological considering their body types, hype, and on coart demeanor. 1.4 bpg is not spectacular for a big man with hops, in fact shareef averaged around 1 and 1 steal per game his first 2 seasons. and in the end, both teams suck defensively anyhow. either way bosh doesnt seem for me to be the type to be a defensive anchor, all in all, at his best, he probably has around average man on man, slightly above average help defense. however, am i really comparing bosh the player to shareef to the player? no, not really, but if i were, honestly, if both were of the same rookie class, and just had their rookie and soph years, you could make a more than strong case for shareef, couldn't you? but inevitably what i am trying to say is that i believe that all bosh will be is an average player who can put up good numbers on a shit team.... like shareef. i hope he proves me wrong, cuz all the better, but im not sold, and i wouldnt buy even if it was on sale.

[Metsis]

Mmmh pretty strange... a team lead by 2 players who may be at best good backups in NBA beat a NBA team who used its players as if it was a regular season game.

This is true, but have you seen the redwood tree sized chips on their shoulders when they come to play NBA teams... They will atleast do their very best to top any NBA teams.

And yeah Orlando has Hill and Howard, but I don't see them as such dominant players as Francis and besides, when you have Francis, you really don't have anyone else on your team... At least on offense. He's got that Marbury thing going and tries to do it all by himself, when he should be the one who starts the plays rather than finishes them. And this lack of team play will be the difference between the Maccabi and Orlando teams... The other starts with team oriented play and the other from the individual perspective. Usually the team with the team mentality wins, unless there is a huge difference in the players skills.

It's the same as with the international competition... Teams are starting to win over the individuals. Which means that the world wide level of basket ball skills is starting to even out... Ofcourse, if the US got all the brightest stars to play for their national team, they would still probably win on pure individual skill, but since the NBA stars are reluctant to play, this is what we get.

The Euro basket ball is better than it's given credit for... Even the NBA has noticed that we are getting better as more and more international players play in the NBA every year...

[tsherkin]

1. technically the raptors are not castoffs, considering they are in the nba. if they werent in the nba then they'd be castoffs. they may be castoffs of better teams, but either way they are still in the nba, which logically would mean they are at least slightly superior to those who arent. they lost to the guys who were cast off for them, which kind of says something, huh.

Err? Comparatively, the level of talent on the Raptors compared to that of most other NBA teams is low; Loren Woods has been around the league, Hoffa hasn't had a chance to get cast-off yet, they ran Milt Palacio at the point the last two years, had Rafer Alston who's been on a couple of different teams, now have Mike James who's REALLY traveled across the league and a European player (!!) at that position.

You're right, the term "cast-off" isn't technically correct but if you're trying to argue talent, then it's a bad angle. Yes, a guy like Morris Peterson is generally more individually talented than Maceo Baston...

But individual talent doesn't matter as much in the right kind of team concept. Detroit showed that the team-over-individual philosophy is effective anywhere, even in the NBA.

2. lose by 2, lose by 20. you lose, you lose.

You're right, a loss is a loss but losing on a buzzer-beater is WAY different than getting blown out.

yeah, even the greatest of the greats needed good teammates and good coaching to win..... against teams that were actually in their 'supposed' calibre.

What does that mean? Jordan's Bulls lost lots of games when he was younger. And he was far better than Bosh. Garnett's teams didn't exactly do resoundingly well either, if you'll recall. I could go on.

no more so than you are at this point on this topic. potential? prove it. show me. he's athletic? is he more athletic than stromile swift? defense? he may have the edge over shareef...... then again that may just be pyschological considering their body types, hype, and on coart demeanor. 1.4 bpg is not spectacular for a big man with hops, in fact shareef averaged around 1 and 1 steal per game his first 2 seasons. and in the end, both teams suck defensively anyhow.

First, any player that can contribute with help-defense doesn't "suck" on D, it means they're a liability in man-to-man coverage which can be overcome with a partial zone. Bosh is a pretty good shot-blocker and he's not actually a defensive liability at PF. His opponents at that position shot an iFG% of 38%. That's pretty good. Duncan's opponents at PF shot 42%, for comparison.

Stats aren't the be-all and end-all of this discussion, of course, but they can certainly help. Bosh is not a bad defender, especially as he's grown stronger.

Greater potential? OK, he's extremely young, he's shown improvement from year to year, he works hard and adds new things to his game... What else do you want? Potential isn't solely based on athleticism as you seem to imply with your Stro comment.

either way bosh doesnt seem for me to be the type to be a defensive anchor, all in all, at his best, he probably has around average man on man, slightly above average help defense.

Yeah, I don't think he's going to be the next Tim Duncan on D either but you're trying to paint him as a mediocre defender which is untrue.

Show me why Bosh CAN'T improve as a player? What's holding his potential back? He can't be a dominant back-to-the-bucket player because of his build, true. But he's quicker than most PFs and Cs and can face up very well. He can also shoot it out to NBA three-point range (though he's by no means as good as someone like Dirk) and has an excellent mid-range game. I can think of only two or three other bigs who have a pull-up J in their arsenal as good or better than Bosh's.

[magius]

Err? Comparatively, the level of talent on the Raptors compared to that of most other NBA teams is low; Loren Woods has been around the league, Hoffa hasn't had a chance to get cast-off yet, they ran Milt Palacio at the point the last two years, had Rafer Alston who's been on a couple of different teams, now have Mike James who's REALLY traveled across the league and a European player (!!) at that position.

You're right, the term "cast-off" isn't technically correct but if you're trying to argue talent, then it's a bad angle. Yes, a guy like Morris Peterson is generally more individually talented than Maceo Baston...

But individual talent doesn't matter as much in the right kind of team concept. Detroit showed that the team-over-individual philosophy is effective anywhere, even in the NBA.

you can say that the raptors have a couple of potential true castoffs (even though, techincally, they arent...yet), but the worst player on the raptors roster, talent wise, is at least equal to most of the maccabi starters. is it not logical that if a maccabi starter could play and were offered a spot on the raptor bench he would be there in a heartbeat? and if not, as the case is, we have to ask why the raptors bench is the raptors bench and not the maccabi starters if maccabi is such a good team. the reasoning would be that, talent wise, maccabi is not fit to be the raptors bench..... and that my friend, is a pretty bad diagnosis. that a starting 5 that arent fit to be the raptors bench beat the raptors starters is downright embarassing, no matter how you angle it.

which brings us to your next point that teamwork outweighs talent, which i cant disagree with. considering maccabi has very little talent, we are assuming that they beat the raptors with, lets say, 99% teamwork. okay, faintly posssible. i still do not see where this argument leads, what are you trying to say? that its not the players fault that they dont play together well? if a team loses, who's fault is it? mine?

What does that mean? Jordan's Bulls lost lots of games when he was younger. And he was far better than Bosh. Garnett's teams didn't exactly do resoundingly well either, if you'll recall. I could go on.

yeah, but they didnt lose to maccabi

First, any player that can contribute with help-defense doesn't "suck" on D, it means they're a liability in man-to-man coverage which can be overcome with a partial zone. Bosh is a pretty good shot-blocker and he's not actually a defensive liability at PF. His opponents at that position shot an iFG% of 38%. That's pretty good. Duncan's opponents at PF shot 42%, for comparison.

find where i said chris bosh's defense sucks and quote it. i said average man on man and above average help defense, which would amount to slightly above average total defense. i did not diss his d, i just dont think its sufficient enough for the raptors to realistically build around him and amount to....anything.

Greater potential? OK, he's extremely young, he's shown improvement from year to year, he works hard and adds new things to his game... What else do you want? Potential isn't solely based on athleticism as you seem to imply with your Stro comment.

oh is that potential? shareefs first two years:
18.7 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 453% fg, 2.2 apg
22.3 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 485% fg, 2.6 apg

potential means nothing until proven, and even if proven does not guarantee the player is the type of player to build a franchise around. i will not argue the fact that bosh may improve his numbers, which he undoubtebly will on such a shit team, but i do argue the fact that he does have what it takes to be a franchise player that wins. he does not have the body type, post game, explosive athleticism or spectacular mid range game to change a game, nor do i think he will devolop any one of those skills sufficiently. i do not think he has the potential to be a game changer on offense or defense, and that is where my fault lies with him. do i think hell be a good player? it really depends on your definition of good player, good stats? sure. winner? sorry, no.

a potential superstar franchise player would be someone who is raw in other aspects of the game, but spectucular in one area. athleticism, offense, defense. bosh is average on all counts. and of course, potential is size and body type.

Show me why Bosh CAN'T improve as a player? What's holding his potential back? He can't be a dominant back-to-the-bucket player because of his build, true. But he's quicker than most PFs and Cs and can face up very well. He can also shoot it out to NBA three-point range (though he's by no means as good as someone like Dirk) and has an excellent mid-range game. I can think of only two or three other bigs who have a pull-up J in their arsenal as good or better than Bosh's.

i cant honesly show you without sounding ridiculous, just as you cant guarantee he will. i just personally think, that he has pretty much peaked, of course he will improve a little in some departments, but i dont think significantly. its just my hypothesis, which of course means absolutely nothing time will tell.

[tsherkin]

you can say that the raptors have a couple of potential true castoffs (even though, techincally, they arent...yet), but the worst player on the raptors roster, talent wise, is at least equal to most of the maccabi starters. is it not logical that if a maccabi starter could play and were offered a spot on the raptor bench he would be there in a heartbeat? and if not, as the case is, we have to ask why the raptors bench is the raptors bench and not the maccabi starters if maccabi is such a good team. the reasoning would be that, talent wise, maccabi is not fit to be the raptors bench..... and that my friend, is a pretty bad diagnosis. that a starting 5 that arent fit to be the raptors bench beat the raptors starters is downright embarassing, no matter how you angle it.

Because the NBA pays more and the chance to prove yourself at the NBA level gives the opportunity to make far more money than any Euro league?

They did pretty well against Orlando this evening, despite being, in your estimation, "not fit to be the Raptors' bench..."

which brings us to your next point that teamwork outweighs talent, which i cant disagree with. considering maccabi has very little talent, we are assuming that they beat the raptors with, lets say, 99% teamwork. okay, faintly posssible. i still do not see where this argument leads, what are you trying to say? that its not the players fault that they dont play together well? if a team loses, who's fault is it? mine?

No, my point is that the Raptors are a disconnected group with little chemistry and no teamwork, so how can you expect them to perform against any team that is well co-ordinated? They were out-coached, out-hustled and out-played.

yeah, but they didnt lose to maccabi

They didn't play Maccabi. And the Raptors in '95-'96 were as bad as you believe Maccabi to be.

find where i said chris bosh's defense sucks and quote it. i said average man on man and above average help defense, which would amount to slightly above average total defense. i did not diss his d, i just dont think its sufficient enough for the raptors to realistically build around him and amount to....anything.

You don't always build around a defensive anchor. And Bosh still has the potential to be a Garnett-like defender (stylistically), which is more than enough if he has good teammates and team chemistry.

oh is that potential? shareefs first two years:
18.7 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 453% fg, 2.2 apg
22.3 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 485% fg, 2.6 apg

potential means nothing until proven,

And yet it is the only means by which a player's future can be judged until it is lived. Shareef was a good player. Bosh is already a superior defender, more aggressive offensively and more inclined to play inside than Shareef was.

and even if proven does not guarantee the player is the type of player to build a franchise around.

Completely true.

i will not argue the fact that bosh may improve his numbers, which he undoubtebly will on such a shit team,

Don't dump on the Raptors TOO hard now; there were six teams with worse records, they tied the Knicks, were one win away from the Lakers and Warriors, were 3 wins from Orlando and 4 from the Clippers.

That doesn't firmly establish them as among the worst in the league, it merely shows that they're on the bottom end of the middle. If a couple of bounces/calls had gone their way, you're talking a team on the cusp of the playoffs despite their lack of talent and defense.

but i do argue the fact that he does have what it takes to be a franchise player that wins. he does not have the body type, post game, explosive athleticism or spectacular mid range game to change a game,

Do you honestly watch Chris Bosh? Yes, his athleticism isn't explosive but it's certainly above average. No, he doesn't have a wicked body but he DOES have a fantastic mid-range game. Tonight wasn't a great showcase of that but he was sick and everyone has off-nights.

nor do i think he will devolop any one of those skills sufficiently.

Prove it; on what grounds to you hold the belief that he cannot improve his skills?

winner? sorry, no.

COMPLETELY related to the team and not the player, unless they are selfish, which Bosh is not.

and of course, potential is size and body type.

Size, body-type, work ethic, skillset coming into the league, development from one year to the next, age... It's not limited to physical characteristics.

If it were, Larry Bird would never have happed. Nor Chris Mullin.

i cant honesly show you without sounding ridiculous, just as you cant guarantee he will. i just personally think, that he has pretty much peaked, of course he will improve a little in some departments, but i dont think significantly. its just my hypothesis, which of course means absolutely nothing time will tell.

Oh, I am well aware I can't guarantee anything. It's just that you're hating on him so hard with your negativity that I have to attack that attitude. You can hold whatever thoughts you will but you've got no realistic reasons for why Bosh can't improve enough to be a game-changer on offense and help carry the Raptors.

[air gordon]

magius you're wrong here. i don't think you watch raptors games either

[magius]

sorry, i still dont think bosh is winner material. im willing to give you the possibility of him one day being an all star, but if a team builds around him, i believe whatever team that is is destined to very early offseasons.

[putodelagoa]

sorry, i still dont think bosh is winner material. im willing to give you the possibility of him one day being an all star, but if a team builds around him, i believe whatever team that is is destined to very early offseasons.

That will put him in the same class of players such as McGrady, Garnett or Marbury.

[magius]

everyone likes a smart ass. more like shareef, antawn jamison or steve francis.

in retrospect, if the draft were reheld today, i would still take darko over bosh, because at least with darko i have the chance, no matter how slim, of getting that special player who can will me into winning, as with bosh, i know i wont get anything, but at best a lot of mid range draft picks for 10 years.

[air gordon]

LMAO- what does darko do that "wills" you into winning?

no one is asking you to apologize, magius. and i don't expect you to change your mind. but at least bring some kind of valid argument

[putodelagoa]

everyone likes a smart ass. more like shareef, antawn jamison or steve francis.

Yeah, I know... Truth hurts.

[hipn]

I live in Torontp, and I must say that the Raptors are the best team or atleast a good team. But Charlie V will be a great addition to the team, just see how he did against New Jersey in the pre-season game. He scored 24 points, and got 6 rebs. He's the one who sent the game into overtime, and he has great talent. Jose C. (the pointguard) is a very talented player and very good, and he might be better than Mike. J, Im pretty sure hes better, pretty sure atleast 2x better. Joey Grahm has really had a chance to prove himself yet, because he is injured, Mo Pete (Peterson) I think was/is injured (for the game against Maccabi and now), Eric W. is injured, I mean hes not the best player, but he did ok last season, Alvin W. didnt play, I dont think.

What I am trying to say is that, Toronto is basically only using the roockies for most games (pre-season) and they are still trying to work things out (practasing defence, offensive plays, defensive plays, etc...).

Jalen R is getting old but if he tries a lot harder, if he gives 120% than he will have a pretty big or atleast average impact on the team.

[BOSS]

Let's not say the Raptors are the best time or people gon rip you up my viet bro.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, there's no sense mis-stating what the Raptors are right now:

Right now, the Raptors are a bottom-of-the-barrell team that will almost certainly miss the playoffs no matter HOW hard they play, unless CV, Jose and Joey Graham friggin' tear it up as rookies. *prays*

The point is not about the Raptors though, the point is what can Bosh bring to a team and this ridiculous Darko vs. Bosh comparison.

Darko's style of ball is essentially the same as Bosh's, so magius appears to not have any clue what he's saying. He's a thin, face-up big man and his main advantage is that he's 2 years younger and 2 inches taller. He's still a guy who relies on athleticism (which isn't transcendant, "only" very good) and his mid-range game. He is even less of a true post player than Bosh. So I don't know where this "I'd take Darko kuz he has more potential" business comes from.

What can Bosh bring to a team? He's shown already that he can be a strong offensive option. He can be a significant scorer and he has made a huge leap since his rookie season. Any improvement this year will only further cement that he's a strong offensive player. He's superior to Shareef in this regard because not only does he not die in the crunch but he's more assertive and versatile.

He's about the same level as a rebounder, which isn't bad nor is it superior but he contributes well enough there. He doesn't have the athleticism or strength to be a 12+ rpg player but that's OK. Between Bosh, CV and Joey Graham once they develop, it shouldn't be the major issue it is now.

Defensively, he can be an average man-to-man defender and a strong weakside help defender, which is enough from him and more than many "superstar" players and "gamechangers" bring to the table. Is he Dikembe Mutombo? No. Is he Ben Wallace? No. Is he Rasheed? No. But he's certainly not a liability and I go could on at length about franchise players that are.

So your argument that he doesn't have the potential to be a superstar player again fails because there's nothing about him to suggest that he cannot further improve over where he is now. There's no close ceiling for him as a player.

[Its_asdf]

Hey, if Chris Bosh manages to average 20 points with Jalen Rose hurling up jumpers all day, then you know that he has a chance to be good.

[Fenix]

Yeah, there's no sense mis-stating what the Raptors are right now:

Right now, the Raptors are a bottom-of-the-barrell team that will almost certainly miss the playoffs no matter HOW hard they play, unless CV, Jose and Joey Graham friggin' tear it up as rookies. *prays*

The point is not about the Raptors though, the point is what can Bosh bring to a team and this ridiculous Darko vs. Bosh comparison.

Darko's style of ball is essentially the same as Bosh's, so magius appears to not have any clue what he's saying. He's a thin, face-up big man and his main advantage is that he's 2 years younger and 2 inches taller. He's still a guy who relies on athleticism (which isn't transcendant, "only" very good) and his mid-range game. He is even less of a true post player than Bosh. So I don't know where this "I'd take Darko kuz he has more potential" business comes from.

What can Bosh bring to a team? He's shown already that he can be a strong offensive option. He can be a significant scorer and he has made a huge leap since his rookie season. Any improvement this year will only further cement that he's a strong offensive player. He's superior to Shareef in this regard because not only does he not die in the crunch but he's more assertive and versatile.

He's about the same level as a rebounder, which isn't bad nor is it superior but he contributes well enough there. He doesn't have the athleticism or strength to be a 12+ rpg player but that's OK. Between Bosh, CV and Joey Graham once they develop, it shouldn't be the major issue it is now.

Defensively, he can be an average man-to-man defender and a strong weakside help defender, which is enough from him and more than many "superstar" players and "gamechangers" bring to the table. Is he Dikembe Mutombo? No. Is he Ben Wallace? No. Is he Rasheed? No. But he's certainly not a liability and I go could on at length about franchise players that are.

So your argument that he doesn't have the potential to be a superstar player again fails because there's nothing about him to suggest that he cannot further improve over where he is now. There's no close ceiling for him as a player.

Why does Darko appear in every single thread ?

He is bigger, longer and tronger than Bosh (7'1, 260 versus 6'11, 235), plus he has a better frame. They're about the same in the athleticism department, although I would call Darko a bit quicker (and he trully can run like a deer, considering we are talking about a white 7-footer). From what I have seen from Darko, he has some very effective post moves and he could be outstanding in that department in a couple of years. Mechanics of his shot are better than Bosh's, as is his range. Defensively, Darko is beast when it comes to blocks, but he still gets pushed out of the position when he tries to rebound. He also tries too much on that side of the court, trying to block pump fakes and his man-to-man D is still something left to be desired. My point is, Darko DOES have a lot more potential than Bosh, although he (CB) is likely to become a perennial all-star. Perhaps as soon as this year. His destiny is to become a poor man's KG. (Off-off topic - I would take Dwight Howard over these two anytime.)

[air gordon]

this is realy silly

some people believe because a guy is the nba's best practice player, he will be the best player ever

"potential' is highly overrated and misused in this forum.

chris bosh is a near 20 and 10 player. and those are not projected stats per 48 or 40 minutes and he didn't do this in the california penal league. this was against nba starters nite in and nite out (once VC was traded).

yet this all gets pushed aside because some white guy can run faster or jump higher

[Its_asdf]

Also note that Bosh had some really outstanding games against some of the best big men out there (Duncan, Garnett and Jermaine O'Neal to name a few). Bosh has shown that he can always take it up a notch when he's playing against good competition.