Knicks' Allan Houston to Retire

[Matthew]

we aren't comparing JYD to Marbury. JYD is a role player, let's make that clear. Marbury, tries (and fails) to be a star.

Hmm..
"Stephon is making 16 million this year, and at the end of his contract (4 more years) he'll be making 21 million. That's a lot to pay for a loser.

Nothing needs to be said about Houston

Maurice Taylor is making 9mill a year

Hardaway @ 15

Richardson will rape the Knicks 8.7mill at the end of his contract, and Crawford will walk away with 10 million at the end of his tenure.

All overpaid. Sure JYD is too, but not as significantly as these guys."

Thats comparing them.

Getting burnt by Shane Heal is EXTREMELY embarassing considering your the self proclaimed best point guard. It's not like Heal is quick or gifted compared to Marbury.

Its not like Shane Heal is a bad player either. In 2000, that Lithuanian pg burnt Kidd serveral times in the gold medal qualifer. does that mean Kidd sucks?

And Yes, Ben Wallace let the Detroit fans fight for him. It's a shame that he went AFTER Artest and Artest was backing away....then he goes psycho on the fans. I praise Ben Wallace. He didn't get himself suspended for a whole season....i love that big pussy.

Hahah you have no idea how gay that sounds. If you had typed it in pink, it would have been the gayest thing I ahve seen on here since "im not shep, i dunno how we have the same ip address!!!"

I will. We drafted Darko and won the championship. Not only are we CONTENDING each year but we have a FUTURE. Words foreign to New York Knicks fans.

we? we? who the fuck are you, chauncey billups? you are a fan in perth. not even detroit. you probably became a detroit fan because of eminem. "just wait 3 more years then its detroit for me baby!!!"

Who the hell wants Melo's bitch ass anyway?

Yeah who would want him when you have Ben Wallaces "big pussy" heh..

Hell, even Denver wanted to draft Darko. Prince is the Pistons solution @SF. He plays DEFENSE (another foreign concept to Carmelo).

You try scoring on him and tell me he has no defense.

Bosh? Yes he might have been a good choice, but all indicators pointed to Darko having more potential.

He only has more potential becuase he is yet to do anything.
Wade and Hinrich would be much more servicable than darko.

Allan Houston in his 3rd year with Pistons > Allan Houston with Knicks

Houstons playoff run with the knicks in 99 defined his career.

[Jeffx]

But the $100 mil was definitely an example of one of Layden's blunders.

One of the worst contracts in NBA history. All that loot for a one-dimensional player. That is why I have nothing but hatred for Layden & Jim Dolan. They f----d this franchise for a long time.

[air gordon]

err. shep..rip..err matt.. ben wallace is the biggest pussy in the whole pistons/pacers brawl

the pacers were embarassing the pistons at the palace and reggie miller wasn't even playing and JO still had a funny foot

the game was already decided. wallace couldn't take a hard a foul and lost his cool. he's the pussy who insinuated the whole thing by pushing artest. and later on he provoked artest even more by throwing a towel out of all things at him. what a fucking tough guy!

pistons are probably the luckiest fucking team last year. the palace security takes out the pacers and then wade gets hurt in the playoffs.

this whole darko vs melo is tired but i know for sure it's a fact that if dumars picked the latter, the piston fans would be saying how brown would have molded anthony into a great defender.. which isn't rocket science when both wallaces are downlow

the word "potential" is a security blanket used by pistons fans for darko. that's all you have to hang to and that's overused. potential means nothing if it is never realized. i've seen this before,"skita" tskitisvilli (sp) and what he doing now lol

this shane heal shit is dumb. kevin johnson did a nasty dunk on hakeem in the playoffs, didn't make hakeem any less of a player. all players get burned...

[putodelagoa]

He only has more potential becuase he is yet to do anything.
Wade and Hinrich would be much more servicable than darko.

It's not like NY did a great job of drafting either. Although Sweetney is solid, he was ill-suited for the Knicks, who like many other teams let Josh Howard and Marquis Daniels become the steals of that draft.

Detroit had a luxury and a philosophy strange for the typical "win now" NY mentality that resulted on the hiring of lots of washed up players (Rolando Blackman, X-man, Glen Rice, Larry Johnson) with big names or one hit wonders. Detroit didn't need a rookie to play that year, so they invested in a talented project that is, as we speak, starting to come to his own.
So my guess is that the plan worked out, since the Pistons managed to win 1 ring and fell three minutes short of a 2nd. There's no way Darko will be a bust. At worse, he will be Raef LaFrentz part two.

[air gordon]

starting to come to his own? how? where? when?

there's no way darko will be a bust? really? gimme the winning lotto tickets then

[putodelagoa]

Check out his performances in this summer's euro championships. He was one of the lone bright spots in a "team" in disarray. For further proof, check out his pre-season numbers. I sense some progress here. He didn't play for 2 years. That shreds confidence, in a sport where confidence means everything. The kid has the physical tools and the technique. It's not like he's Pavel Podkolzine who was drafted because he was big and could lace his shoes.
Do you really think Melo would have seen much burn time under Brown, the way he plays defense? He would not start, he would lose motivation and surely his confidence would go down the gutter. Detroit had a pretty solid team. They drafted a player to bring along slowly, they drafted based on need, since they had only Cliff Robinson to play the 4 back then. I Don't think they could guess that Sheed would fall to their lap later on the season.

[air gordon]

preseason games don't mean shit to me. i've seen lonny baxer dominate summer leagues and he may not even be on a nba roster...again

i'll give to you that he's finally resembling a nba player, in nba PRESEASON games no less. but that does not = player coming into his own

we don't know how melo would have panned out in detroit. to say otherwise is just stupid. as i said earlier, it's much easeir to play defense when the wallaces are in the lane. plus we've seen players with attitude problems fit right in in detroit (sheed).

these little guarantees/absolutes you're making are mind-boggling. what's my tax return going to be, mr mind reader

rolando blackman, X-man, and LJ were all important contributors, (esp. mcdaniel and grandma ma) to nyk in their playoff runs. do you know what you're talking about?

[putodelagoa]

plus we've seen players with attitude problems fit right in in detroit (sheed).

these little guarantees/absolutes you're making are mind-boggling. what's my tax return going to be, mr mind reader

rolando blackman, X-man, and LJ were all important contributors, (esp. mcdaniel and grandma ma) to nyk in their playoff runs. do you know what you're talking about?

Sheed's attitude problem was related to a somewhat fiery temper. Besides he was a guy that always rejected the "go-to" role, and a willing guy to play a part in a team concept, which he did.
Melo has not quite the same kind of attitude. He's rather spoiled and lazy. We saw how well he got along with Larry Brown in the Olympics ...

Of course one can never tell how it would be if...
What would have happened to Jordan if the Blazers picked him? Who knows?

You're right about the pre-season stuff. But I pointed you other clues that show some progress in darko's habilities.

I pointed out those players, to give an example of how NY management is always on the win-now mode that drives them to get famous players well past their prime. I could add Mc Dyess and Penny to that list, of course...

I saw a good number of games in the early 90's, and I can recall that Blackman, for starters, was never used by Riley.
X-man was there for 1 year, when they were kicked by the Bulls.
Johnson, was marketable, but nothing but a tweener with a bad back that fell in love with the outside shot.
Should I start on Rice?

[magius]

i think houston retiring is a good thing for the knicks. better to get rid of two overpaid players than none. houston was an average player and could've still produced all things considered, but its not like the knicks really need another perimiter scorer. sometimes subtraction is addition. having a stacked team on paper is often times a strategy for failure, and yes, talent wise, the knicks are stacked, at least at guard.

i dont think marbury is vastly overpaid. sure he has never won anyting worth anything, but then again, a lot of 'superstars' have never won anything either and are getting their paycheques, so why not him. in fact the only superstars who are 'winners' are shaq, duncan, and kobe.

i would like to see the knicks downgrade on talent for grit. of course this is easier said then done, considering all the obviously overpaid players they do have (q rich, crawford, taylor). i would like to maybe see them go small during the season, and use a backcourt of nate and steph. i have no confidence whatsoever in q or crawford. a starting lineup they could experiment with is:

curry
davis/rose/frye
ariza
marbury
robinson

with penny backing up nate, q backing up ariza, crawford backing up steph (or better trade crawford and q.... for peanuts), but they will probably end up starting the following:

curry
davis/frye
richardson
crawford
marbury

all in all, either way, this team is really depending on the curry gamble.

darko was the right choice for the pistons. a 7 footer that even just puts up 14 and 7 is more valuable than a wing player that can put up 20. i do not think darko will be a bust, lets see what he does this season with consistent playing time with minutes that actually mean something.

[air gordon]

Sheed's attitude problem was related to a somewhat fiery temper. Besides he was a guy that always rejected the "go-to" role, and a willing guy to play a part in a team concept, which he did.
Melo has not quite the same kind of attitude. He's rather spoiled and lazy. We saw how well he got along with Larry Brown in the Olympics ...

so it's been shown a player with attitude problems can succeed with detroit and/or brown. again, when all those pieces are already there...

Of course one can never tell how it would be if...
What would have happened to Jordan if the Blazers picked him? Who knows?

ok i'm glad we can agree on something. so please stop this "no way darko will be a bust" talk

You're right about the pre-season stuff. But I pointed you other clues that show some progress in darko's habilities.

yes then just say darko is progressing the first time around

I pointed out those players, to give an example of how NY management is always on the win-now mode that drives them to get famous players well past their prime. I could add Mc Dyess and Penny to that list, of course...

lol i'm not the one to defend nYK but at the time of the mcdyess-camby trade, camby's glassman reputation was at an all time high. only when mcdyess blow out his knee once again did the deal turn sour

I saw a good number of games in the early 90's, and I can recall that Blackman, for starters, was never used by Riley.
X-man was there for 1 year, when they were kicked by the Bulls.
Johnson, was marketable, but nothing but a tweener with a bad back that fell in love with the outside shot.
Should I start on Rice?

then go see the games again and stop generalizing. i'll give you blackman but he wasn't given 6yr/$60 mil contract anyway lol. i didn't say anything about rice

almost 19ppg by the X-man is not washed up or a one hit wonder. he was probably the best forward to lineup next to ewing during knicks playoff teams in the 90's.

even on a bad back, LJ played an important role in the knicks playoffs, most notably the big 4pt play. c'mon...

[putodelagoa]

even on a bad back, LJ played an important role in the knicks playoffs, most notably the big 4pt play. c'mon...

Yes. The famous Phantom 4 point play with the inexistent foul being whistled on Antonio Davis...
Although I don't discuss his role in that knicks team, you must concede that his game was coming south when he joined the knicks... For all the heroics he could put on ocasionally, he averaged around 10pts at a 40% clip that year. He was half the player he was when he came to the league.

almost 19ppg by the X-man is not washed up or a one hit wonder. he was probably the best forward to lineup next to ewing during knicks playoff teams in the 90's.

X-man played one year with the knicks. So I guess he was an one hit wonder
He too was on the downside of his career. Besides, the numbers you refer to are playoff numbers, I guess.

The trend here is that the knicks, instead of investing on young talent through rebuilding prefer to fetch worn out players with a great pedigree.

yes then just say darko is progressing the first time around

It's just a gut feeling, you know... The kid will be good. It's my very flawed opinion, though...

lol i'm not the one to defend nYK but at the time of the mcdyess-camby trade, camby's glassman reputation was at an all time high. only when mcdyess blow out his knee once again did the deal turn sour

You hd to know it would go sour. See, the problem here is that they didn't trade Camby for MD, they traded Camby AND Nene Hilário for a player with iffy knees...
Guess they saw a potencial Mc Dyess type of player in Nenne but prefered to have the original one. Once again the Knicks trend: Young for Aged and Washed up.

so it's been shown a player with attitude problems can succeed with detroit and/or brown. again, when all those pieces are already there...

Yes, but Sheed's attitude is more related to a mean spirited competitive drive, and therefore more suitable to the Pistons.

[Cable]

Don't you love the NLSC, where a simple thread to discuss the retirement of Allan Houston turns into an all-out debate concerning Jerome Williams (who by the way can't shoot worth shit), the Darko Milicic draft position debate ("Ivan make basket" made me laugh so hard, I forgot about that movie) and the Knicks salary dealings?

[John WB]

This sucks. I'll really miss him. I hope his knee gets better and he doesn't have to deal with the pain. The guy obviously loved playing. He tried his hardest to come back from his injury, but it obviously didn't work.

i dunno why, but its hard for me to think he was ever part of a dunk contest. by the way, anyone have any of his other dunks from the same dunk contest?

Probably because he was most known for being a shooter. He was one of the best pure shooters in the NBA when he played.

cklitsie, I don't see how you can really blame the Knicks deicision to keep him and waive JYD on Allan Houston. That should be managment's decision.

Matt, your Shane Heal argument is weak. That's like saying Tyronn Lue is better or comparable to AI because he did good defending him back in 2001 when he was a Laker in the Finals.

[Matt]

Matt, your Shane Heal argument is weak. That's like saying Tyronn Lue is better or comparable to AI because he did good defending him back in 2001 when he was a Laker in the Finals.

The distance between AI and Lue is much smaller than Heal and Marbury.

Hahah you have no idea how gay that sounds. If you had typed it in pink, it would have been the gayest thing I ahve seen on here since "im not shep, i dunno how we have the same ip address!!!"

This is what makes you a retarded "debater" (and i use that term loosely). See, all you try to do is unsult people instead of sticking to the topic.

we? we? who the fuck are you, chauncey billups? you are a fan in perth. not even detroit. you probably became a detroit fan because of eminem. "just wait 3 more years then its detroit for me baby!!!"

What has the fact that I'm in Perth have got to to with anything. I'm a fan of Detroit, i buy their merchandise, watch their games etc which makes me a part of the team. You see, with out people like me and other sports fans, there would be no sports teams at all. We have the biggest collective voice in the organisation.

Nice try trying to label me as a bandwagoner. Too bad that i 1. hate Eminem 2. followed the Pistons before i even knew he existed

You try scoring on him and tell me he has no defense.

this is the worst argument ever. I am not a professional basketball player. I have the right to critisize him though, and i do it relative to other NBA players.

He only has more potential becuase he is yet to do anything.
Wade and Hinrich would be much more servicable than darko.

His potential is based on things he can accomplish given his skills and talents. He hasn't done anything yet but their is a realistic probability that he will turn out to be something special...something that will put him up with Wade and LeBron.

Speaking of Wade, it's easy to say that Detroit should have picked him in HINDSIGHT. Who the hell expected him to blow up like he did? No one. Detroit picked a project player because they were ready to win, and they already had their bases covered.

the pacers were embarassing the pistons at the palace and reggie miller wasn't even playing and JO still had a funny foot

excuses excuses. So what, the Pistons were getting embarassed, big deal. Too bad that JO had a funny foot. If you can't play for whatever reason then don't, if you do play then don't use excuses.

the game was already decided. wallace couldn't take a hard a foul and lost his cool. he's the pussy who insinuated the whole thing by pushing artest. and later on he provoked artest even more by throwing a towel out of all things at him. what a fucking tough guy!

Artest backed off from the bigger and angry man who wanted to get at him, but charged at a fan that threw a cup of water on him. what a fucking tough guy!

this whole darko vs melo is tired but i know for sure it's a fact that if dumars picked the latter, the piston fans would be saying how brown would have molded anthony into a great defender.. which isn't rocket science when both wallaces are downlow

the word "potential" is a security blanket used by pistons fans for darko. that's all you have to hang to and that's overused. potential means nothing if it is never realized. i've seen this before,"skita" tskitisvilli (sp) and what he doing now lol

hmm, it's fact is it....show me some evidence then. Truth is, we already had a good small forward, and didn't need another offensive minded player.

Potential is a term teams draft on. The bigger the potential the bigger the chances of success.



Even if Darko becomes a bust, Detroit still has a championship and a finals appearance under their belts (at least). All thanks to the legendary Joe D.

[Matthew]

The distance between AI and Lue is much smaller than Heal and Marbury.

elaborate on how that makes marbury a bad player

This is what makes you a retarded "debater" (and i use that term loosely). See, all you try to do is unsult people instead of sticking to the topic.

This isnt a debate, its virtually a free for all. theres no structure to it. Andi never consider myself a debater. the thing is though, I do know alot more about the nba (and most other sports, soccer excluded) than you.

What has the fact that I'm in Perth have got to to with anything. I'm a fan of Detroit, i buy their merchandise, watch their games etc which makes me a part of the team. You see, with out people like me and other sports fans, there would be no sports teams at all. We have the biggest collective voice in the organisation.

no you dont you idiot. the players have the biggest voice. and buying a ben wallace jersey and reading box scores makes you "fan", but it does not make you a part of the team. you dont impact whats going on. you dont make or break the team. fans who just say "we" are losers. its cool that you cheer for your team.. but can you imagine a g -unit fan starting to refer to themselves as "WE" when discussing their politics. its the same thing. the players, coaches and management impact what happens. a fan halfway accross the world has no impact whatsoever. enjoy the ride as the fan, but you're not a part of them.

Nice try trying to label me as a bandwagoner. Too bad that i 1. hate Eminem 2. followed the Pistons before i even knew he existed

so what drew you to detroit? jerry stackhouse? then why didnt you follow him to washington/dallas?

this is the worst argument ever. I am not a professional basketball player. I have the right to critisize him though, and i do it relative to other NBA players.

actually, no you dont. you can do it, but it has no meaning, becuase you havent done anything.

His potential is based on things he can accomplish given his skills and talents. He hasn't done anything yet but their is a realistic probability that he will turn out to be something special...something that will put him up with Wade and LeBron.

what are you basing this potential on? the ammount of airballs and shots that hit the side of the backboards? or the fact that joe dumars drafted him? and to say that its a realistic expectation that he will put him alongside wade and lebron is a joke, but to then say carmelo sucks becuase he doesnt play defense just shows your hypcrosy.

Speaking of Wade, it's easy to say that Detroit should have picked him in HINDSIGHT. Who the hell expected him to blow up like he did? No one. Detroit picked a project player because they were ready to win, and they already had their bases covered.

Detroit was just lucky they got Rasheed at such a bargain basement price. That was my arguement all along, they were one piece away from the championship, and they decided to take a project player over bosh and melo? I didnt think they should have taken wade (or hinrich either), but seeing how joe dumars is giving genius status, maybe he should have seen it comming. Pat Riely certainly did. Why doesnt reily get the credit for how quickly he turned around miami. He signed odom, drafted butler and wade in succesive years, they get to the second round, then get shaq and they get to game 7 of the conference finals. Give the man some credit.

excuses excuses. So what, the Pistons were getting embarassed, big deal. Too bad that JO had a funny foot. If you can't play for whatever reason then don't, if you do play then don't use excuses.

you contradicted yourself in a matter of sentences. "excuses excuses" followed by "so what if detroit were losing". thats an excuse!

Artest backed off from the bigger and angry man who wanted to get at him, but charged at a fan that threw a cup of water on him. what a fucking tough guy!

becuase fans arent on the same level as other players. fans are almost freeloaders. they watch the hard work, cheer and boo and somehow think their contribution is on par with the players. sure they pay for the privledge, but they arent as valuable to a team as the players.

and artest did show great poise to not retaliate, but i wish he did. not becuase i dont like ben wallace (which isnt true, i think wallace is a fine help defender),but if he had gone at wallace, he wouldnt have had a beer thrown at him.

Ive never had this question answered though, what right did the fan have to throw the beer? none whatsoever. therefore the fans started and escalted the melee, yet the pacer players are the ones who are branded as thugs? what a crock of shit. isnt also funny, the ones who do continue to criticise the pacers are fans themselves. hmm.. maybe the fans who threw beer think they are part of the pistons too?

hold on a second.. did you say the fans are as big of the organistion as anyone? then howcome did nothing happen to the pistons from the league?

hmm, it's fact is it....show me some evidence then. Truth is, we already had a good small forward, and didn't need another offensive minded player.

your close mindedness in this thread towards any non piston player is all the evidence required.

Potential is a term teams draft on. The bigger the potential the bigger the chances of success.

which is why teams fall flat on their face during draft night.

Even if Darko becomes a bust, Detroit still has a championship and a finals appearance under their belts (at least). All thanks to the legendary Joe D.

all thanks to rasheed wallace and chauncey billups more than to joe dumars. players win championships, not gm's.

[Matt]

I do know alot more about the nba (and most other sports, soccer excluded) than you.

yes, your really showing that here aren't you...with all those lame insults as evidence. That's what people with poor knowledge always refer too

no you dont you idiot. the players have the biggest voice. and buying a ben wallace jersey and reading box scores makes you "fan", but it does not make you a part of the team. you dont impact whats going on. you dont make or break the team. fans who just say "we" are losers. its cool that you cheer for your team.. but can you imagine a g -unit fan starting to refer to themselves as "WE" when discussing their politics. its the same thing. the players, coaches and management impact what happens. a fan halfway accross the world has no impact whatsoever. enjoy the ride as the fan, but you're not a part of them.

whilst you have a point about the day to day power, it is the collective fan that has the most power. With no market for a product it's not going to succeed. The market is the most important power factor. There's a reason why Grizzlies failed to in Vancouver.

so what drew you to detroit? jerry stackhouse? then why didnt you follow him to washington/dallas?

actually it was Joe Dumars...then he retired so i followed Stack.

........i'll get back to more later.

[Matthew]

The Grizzlies still survived didnt they? They just moved. Its not like the Grizzlies listened to and adhered to all the thoughts of the fans, otherwise they would have drafted steve nash instead of shareef.

actually it was Joe Dumars...then he retired so i followed Stack.

so you followed stack? then why didnt you follow him when he went to washington and dallas?

[Matt]

actually, no you dont. you can do it, but it has no meaning, becuase you havent done anything

so are you saying that i can't criticize because i "haven't done anything". That means you, nor anybody else that hasn't done anything can't criticize. That would practically include everyone aside from Bill Walton, Barkley, Kerr etc

what are you basing this potential on? the ammount of airballs and shots that hit the side of the backboards?
or the fact that joe dumars drafted him? and to say that its a realistic expectation that he will put him alongside wade and
lebron is a joke, but to then say carmelo sucks becuase he doesnt play defense just shows your hypcrosy.

I'm basing it on his skills (superb passing ability for a big man, runs the floor, shoots up to the 3 pointer and his age...20)
It's way too early to cross him off. Remember Jermaine O'Neal? He was not worth a sentence in his early years, now look at him.

Detroit was just lucky they got Rasheed at such a bargain basement price. That was my arguement all along, they were
one piece away from the championship, and they decided to take a project player over bosh and melo? I didnt think they
should have taken wade (or hinrich either), but seeing how joe dumars is giving genius status, maybe he should have seen
it comming. Pat Riely certainly did. Why doesnt reily get the credit for how quickly he turned around miami. He signed
odom, drafted butler and wade in succesive years, they get to the second round, then get shaq and they get to game 7 of
the conference finals. Give the man some credit.

Detroit practically got everyone at a bargain price...that's the way Joe works. There's a reason why one player goes ahead of
the next, teams think that he can help them win. No one is discrediting Riley's work here either.

actually, no you dont. you can do it, but it has no meaning, becuase you havent done anything

so are you saying that i can't criticize because i "haven't done anything". That means you, nor anybody else that hasn't done
anything can't criticize. That would practically include everyone aside from Bill Walton, Barkley, Kerr etc

what are you basing this potential on? the ammount of airballs and shots that hit the side of the backboards?
or the fact that joe dumars drafted him? and to say that its a realistic expectation that he will put him alongside wade and
lebron is a joke, but to then say carmelo sucks becuase he doesnt play defense just shows your hypcrosy.

I'm basing it on his skills (superb passing ability for a big man, runs the floor, shoots up to the 3 pointer and his age...20)
It's way too early to cross him off. Remember Jermaine O'Neal? He was not worth a sentence in his early years, now look at him.

Detroit was just lucky they got Rasheed at such a bargain basement price. That was my arguement all along, they were
one piece away from the championship, and they decided to take a project player over bosh and melo? I didnt think they
should have taken wade (or hinrich either), but seeing how joe dumars is giving genius status, maybe he should have seen
it comming. Pat Riely certainly did. Why doesnt reily get the credit for how quickly he turned around miami. He signed
odom, drafted butler and wade in succesive years, they get to the second round, then get shaq and they get to game 7 of
the conference finals. Give the man some credit.

Detroit practically got everyone at a bargain price...that's the way Joe works. There's a reason why one player goes ahead of
the next, teams think that he can help them win. No one is discrediting Riley's work here either.

you contradicted yourself in a matter of sentences. "excuses excuses" followed by "so what if detroit were losing". thats an excuse!

you just misquoted me....i don't recall saying "so what if detroit were losing".

Not to mention i didn't make an excuse for their loss. I stating they were losing, big deal. If i said it was because the refs weren't calling fouls, or Billups was injured or something like that, that would of been an excuse.

Ive never had this question answered though, what right did the fan have to throw the beer? none whatsoever. therefore the fans started and escalted the melee, yet the pacer players are the ones who are branded as thugs? what a crock of shit. isnt also funny, the ones who do continue to criticise the pacers are fans themselves. hmm.. maybe the fans who threw beer think they are part of the pistons too?

hold on a second.. did you say the fans are as big of the organistion as anyone? then howcome did nothing happen to the pistons from the league?

yep, the fan that threw the cup started it. no question. you wonder why the pacer players are branded as thugs? because they went on an all out rampage when they should have known better.

Fans have a much smaller liability than the players, that's the way it is. Artest was lucky not to be suspended for LIFE for assaulting a customer.

which is why teams fall flat on their face during draft night.

Draft nights aren't easy. Otherwise Gilbert Arenas wouldn't have been drafted in Rnd 2.

all thanks to rasheed wallace and chauncey billups more than to joe dumars. players win championships, not gm's.

true, the players do the playing but the GM builds the team. Without a good GM there is no winning

[Matthew]

so are you saying that i can't criticize because i "haven't done anything". That means you, nor anybody else that hasn't done anything can't criticize. That would practically include everyone aside from Bill Walton, Barkley, Kerr etc

Basically yes. Why do you think nobody pays attention to what Stephen A says, but they listen to what Barkley and Magic says? You can offer opinions, but to say "carmelo is a shit defender" is just stupid. You dont see Antawn Jamison or Lebron James saying that do you?

I'm basing it on his skills (superb passing ability for a big man, runs the floor, shoots up to the 3 pointer and his age...20)

His skills? Man he hasnt shown anything though. Sure he runs the floor, but so does JYD. Yao ming has hit a 3 pointer before in an nba game, does that mean he "shoots upto the 3 pointer" as well? I cant remember his passing in games, so i wont comment on that.

It's way too early to cross him off. Remember Jermaine O'Neal? He was not worth a sentence in his early years, now look at him.

Darko is not Jermaine though. And I never said Darko wont become a good player in the future. But the fact remains he has shown us nothing. I think its rather strange though how Kwame is labelled as an out and out bust and Darko is given all the excuses in the world. He hasnt even shown glimpses of anything great.

Detroit practically got everyone at a bargain price...that's the way Joe works. There's a reason why one player goes ahead of
the next, teams think that he can help them win.

Exactly, and theres been a reason why Darko was at the bottom of that list.

No one is discrediting Riley's work here either.

I'm not talking about in this thread. But when Miami's improvement is brought up, the general consesus is that Shaq is responsable for Miami's sucess.

you just misquoted me....i don't recall saying "so what if detroit were losing".

They were losing though, and you admitted they were being embarrased. So essentially its the same thing.

Not to mention i didn't make an excuse for their loss. I stating they were losing, big deal. If i said it was because the refs weren't calling fouls, or Billups was injured or something like that, that would of been an excuse.

It was a big deal to ben wallace. To discredit the value of the game shows exactly how ignorant you are. If Indy was getting blown out of the game when the melee broke out, i guarantee your opinion of the game would be different.

yep, the fan that threw the cup started it. no question. you wonder why the pacer players are branded as thugs? because they went on an all out rampage when they should have known better.

Thats the problem with society. Yes lets just blame who retaliates, not who instigates. Why should they have any less human rights becuase they are professional athletes? The fans should have known better, and the way the media and the rest of the fans have blamed the pacers almost exclusively is disgusting.

Fans have a much smaller liability than the players, that's the way it is. Artest was lucky not to be suspended for LIFE for assaulting a customer.

But the Pistons organisation have a much bigger responsability to provide a safe working enviroment for the players. Why that wasnt address in the penalties is beyond me.

Draft nights aren't easy. Otherwise Gilbert Arenas wouldn't have been drafted in Rnd 2.

Arenas was actually one of the more nba ready players in the 2001 draft. its just that after kobe, kg, tmac and jermaine oneal, teams were giddy over potential.

[putodelagoa]

but to say "carmelo is a shit defender" is just stupid. You dont see Antawn Jamison or Lebron James saying that do you?

Those who have glass roofs can't throw stones (portuguese proverb)

[Matt]

You can offer opinions, but to say "carmelo is a shit defender" is just stupid. You dont see Antawn Jamison or Lebron James saying that do you?

It's not the players place to criticize each other is it? that wouldn't be good for the league either. I still stand by my words, Melo can't play D.

His skills? Man he hasnt shown anything though. Sure he runs the floor, but so does JYD. Yao ming has hit a 3 pointer before in an nba game, does that mean he "shoots upto the 3 pointer" as well? I cant remember his passing in games, so i wont comment on that.

skill wise he looks beyond his years for a player his age. Yao hitting a 3 pointer, or Shaq for that matter, doesn't mean he can shoot it unless he can do it consistently.

Darko is not Jermaine though. And I never said Darko wont become a good player in the future. But the fact remains he has shown us nothing. I think its rather strange though how Kwame is labelled as an out and out bust and Darko is given all the excuses in the world. He hasnt even shown glimpses of anything great.

Darko and Jermaine are in a similar situation though. Both, incidentally had the same tutor in Rasheed.

It was a big deal to ben wallace. To discredit the value of the game shows exactly how ignorant you are. If Indy was getting blown out of the game when the melee broke out, i guarantee your opinion of the game would be different.

I discredited the value of the game because it was in the first 2 weeks of the season. Perhaps if it was a playoff game. The second part is pure speculation.

Thats the problem with society. Yes lets just blame who retaliates, not who instigates. Why should they have any less human rights becuase they are professional athletes? The fans should have known better, and the way the media and the rest of the fans have blamed the pacers almost exclusively is disgusting.

retaliation is essentially revenge. Should we allow revenge? It's not like it was self defense. Artest had to CHASE the guy. It's not in his job description either to go after roudy customers either...that's security's job. Even if they failed badly at it, it's not Artest's place to be Mr. Policeman.

But the Pistons organisation have a much bigger responsability to provide a safe working enviroment for the players. Why that wasnt address in the penalties is beyond me.

I agree. I assume the security that was provided (i wonder if the NBA sets the standards) was within NBA standards. There was no reason not to believe it wasn't since this was the first event of this magnitude. I wonder what will happen with the civil cases. Will the players get sued? or Palace? or NBA?

[Matthew]

It's not the players place to criticize each other is it? that wouldn't be good for the league either. I still stand by my words, Melo can't play D.

But, he is that much better than you at it you really shouldnt say that. Its not like you're saying "carmelo is a below average nba defender", you're saying flat out he cant play defense.

It would be like a french cunt or someone who can barely speak english saying "you no speeka good engalish yah". it doesnt mean much does it?

skill wise he looks beyond his years for a player his age. Yao hitting a 3 pointer, or Shaq for that matter, doesn't mean he can shoot it unless he can do it consistently.

Are you aware of how many 3's Darko has hit during his nba career? It's less than yao's and shaq's.
But hey, at leats he is consistant. What potential!!

Darko and Jermaine are in a similar situation though. Both, incidentally had the same tutor in Rasheed.

The only difference is Jermaine made the most of his limited minutes. Darko has been an embarrasment when he has had minutes. But just for the record, again, im not saying he wont ever improve. I hope he does. I'm all for the game having more and more superstars. But there has been no justification for his selection with the number 2 pick that year.

I discredited the value of the game because it was in the first 2 weeks of the season. Perhaps if it was a playoff game. The second part is pure speculation.

Its the pure truth. You can continue having your head up your ass and say its speculation, but then say Darko can shoot three's when he is yet to make one and thats a main reason why he has the potential to suceed, and not think thats a tad contradicting?

Objection your honor!!

retaliation is essentially revenge. Should we allow revenge? It's not like it was self defense. Artest had to CHASE the guy. It's not in his job description either to go after roudy customers either...that's security's job. Even if they failed badly at it, it's not Artest's place to be Mr. Policeman.

If somebody knocks your hat off your head, you are entitled to defend yourself. If someone throws a beer at you, im sure its the same. I dont feel like looking through american law to see if he was within his rights. I know I would have probably done the same thing. And if he was my teamate, i wouldve done what stephen jackson did as well, without a doubt.

I agree. I assume the security that was provided (i wonder if the NBA sets the standards) was within NBA standards. There was no reason not to believe it wasn't since this was the first event of this magnitude.

Thats actually a good question, and a possible explanation as to why detroit wasnt dealt with. I'm still not happy with it, but thats the most logical explanation ive heard.

I wonder what will happen with the civil cases. Will the players get sued? or Palace? or NBA?

probably all 3, plus the actual teams. Unless if the pistons own the palace.. im not sure.

[J@3]

I'm loving this discussion. I'm assuming Matt watches Piston practices or something because his career three pointers are kinda... well, non existant and that superb passing ability has given him 14 assists in 71 games anyways, I'm off to go tell everyone Yinka Dare had a 45" vertical.

[putodelagoa]

How much can you showcase when you play an average 1 and a half minute of garbage time? A quadruple double?

[J@3]

That's exactly my point to say:

I'm basing it on his skills (superb passing ability for a big man, runs the floor, shoots up to the 3 pointer and his age...20)

Is difficult to comprehend because Darko hardly plays and seems to show nothing apart from some athletisism and the occassional dunk.