Point Guard Dilemma

[GloveGuy]

Where are they?

I was thinking about the great PGs of the 80s and 90s -- Magic Johnson, Isiah, John Stockton, GP. And then there was the crop below -- Kevin Johnson, Maurice Cheeks, Tim Hardaway, Mark Jackson....

I'm sorry but there's no one point guard out there anymore who can call put themselves in that first tier(though Stephon Marbury would probably argue for himself) and maybe a select few who can put themselves in the second.

With Jason Kidd on the strong decline, it's impossible to find that point guard who can run a team's half-court offense while being able to lock down on the defensive end.

There's this nasty trend of tweeners like Gilbert Arenas and Steve Francis, undersized shooting gaurds who know how to pass. Those who under-estimate the greatness of a guy like John Stockton -- a guy who didn't need to dunk to get respect or do crossovers or get on SportsCenter. Here's a guy who could run a flawless pick-and-roll, shoot over 50%, and end up being the NBA career leader in steals. Most importantly though, the team came first.

The reason why Steve Nash received the MVP is because we all felt like it was this new wave of PGs enhancing the play of their teammates. John Stockton was had a decade of seasons like that. The upper tier made a career of winning, knowing what the team needed and giving it. It just doesn't seem cool anymore to emulate greatness.

This is just a vent post, but I thought that everyone should here my opinion about the sad state of the point guard position.

[Emiliano]

I totally agree with you...its sad that now we rarely see pass-first point-guards
Young point-guards should play the way Stockton and Magic used to play, that is the team comes first

[#12]

deron williams, luke ridnour, steve nash come to mind

[Null17]

yeah, but those three are quite rare in the league. most of the pg's are undersized sg's

[kinokong]

deron williams, luke ridnour, steve nash come to mind

deron williams... not so sure about that... i saw what he did in college but we'll have to wait and see about that one but pretty sure he is going to be a good point guard(big strong sees the court well) but its pretty sad to see the 2 most important positions(pg and the center) being replaced by prototype pf and shooting guards

[Fresh8]

Good post Gloveguy. I agree that once GP and JKidd retire... there may not be any outstanding pass first traditional PG's left in the NBA. I guess coaches need to coach their players basics and people need to see basketball as not only 'all dunking.'

The game and players are portrayed as super athletes who dunk alot. We need to face it that not many people care bout the fundamentals as much as before. I see this as the problem why the NBA has lost its traditional 1 men. These days, all you need to do is be athletic and you're in the League. Fundamental skill is overlooked in my opinion. And unless this is minimised, the drought of good pass first pass second point guards will continue.

[cklitsie]

Chris Paul, Baron Davis will be BIG next year too, especially in the playoffs.

Young point-guards should play the way Stockton and Magic used to play, that is the team comes first

I wouldn't be surprised if Jason Williams would lead the league in assists next year (with the correct coaching that is). That's basically all he needs to do to win and be a good PG in Miami.

[Null17]

I wouldn't be surprised if Jason Williams would lead the league in assists next year (with the correct coaching that is). That's basically all he needs to do to win and be a good PG in Miami.

forgot about him. he can be a good traditional pg if he has his head straight. Miami might be the team for him. We'll see

[Matt]

ahah, whoever plays for Larry Brown plays the traditional way.

But the game has evolved so i guess we have to accept that. It probably all started with Isiah or Tim Hardaway and their crossovers/dribbles. Now the PG is a guy that has to be able to score

Arenas, Marbury, J Will, Bibby, Iverson, Billups, Kidd, Francis, B. Diddy, J Terry, Parker, Nash, Stoudamire, Van Exel etc

The PG position in it's traditional sense is gone, i mean we have at times guys like Prince and A Walker playing the point. Hell, even Vin Baker in Milwaukee played point forward (and of course KG plays his "natural position" )

[End Boss]

With Jason Kidd on the strong decline

8 triple doubles in 66 games.. WHAT A FEEB!!

he's 32, but the way most people talk you'd think he's older than reggie.. it's true that, much like the rest of us, jason kidd is getting older.. but I'm yet to see any evidence of this strong decline.. barring injury kidd will be around as a higher order starting calibre PG for another 4 years..

I'd take 2005 kidd over gp in his prime, just because of his work ethic and team leadership

[Cloudy]

I definately gotta second what End Boss said.

[Andrew]

Great post GloveGuy, though I'd personally put Mo Cheeks in the first tier. While there certainly are point guards that (for the most part) conform to the traditional model, as you noted most of them aren't considered to be in the upper echelon of today's league.

It's not just point guards though, it's at the other end of the scale too. The evolution of big men has seen fewer good centres. Players naturally cut out to be pivotmen are often underdeveloped or simply have no interest in fulfilling traditional roles.

[The X]

I'd personally put GP on the 2nd tier....he's not on the same level as the other 3, especially Magic and Isiah....

[Jugs]

I'll have to say that GloveGuy made an awesome post...

Well the true Point Guard is slowly fadeing away, i love the fundamentals of basketball, that's why i always encourage my teammates when they do a good pass..... and i hype my self when i make a pass

Anyways, away from my life story and onto the NBA

The NBA is turning into a high flying bunch of, dudes, who high fly.....
Maybe if they put the ring up to like 11 and a half feet, then only the high flying flyers can fly and then it'll force other players to be more of a passing thingy..... but then ticket sales might go down because of those people who like dunks... something like that

Yeah and i'll have to agree with Boss End that Jason Kidd isn't strongly declining yet, J-Kidd for MVP

[FendeR`]

The game is changing, and hence why we're different types of players. Teams are built around young-guns and running, and so naturally we aren't going to see many Stocktons (or Stockton-type players even with less skill) or Olajuwons(sp). You can't really expect a legend-like player in this era of running, flash and dunking.

[Madsnyb]

So you want a passing point guard? Just watch Sarunas Jasikevicius play for Indiana next year, I've seen him play in Europe, and my guess is he'll have a spot in the starting five by christmas. He can score, of course, as he's a great shooter, but the best part of his game is his passing. He's certainly not in "the first tier", but I believe that with time he can become a great player.

[knickerbocker03]

Yea, Jasikevicius has been the top PG here in Europe the last years. He´s a terrific shooter and a very skilled passer. Let´s see what happens in Indiana this season.

[CERVANTES]

There is a guy called Sebastian, and he is a true PG too ( Telfair )

[Doobie]

Greg Oden is going to be the kind of big man the leaugue needs . that guy is a true center.PG is still going to be an issue , since more and more PG's are commin from streetball , they are obsessed with breaking people and fancy passes.

[cyanide]

Great thread, Gloveguy

The game is changing, and hence why we're different types of players. Teams are built around young-guns and running, and so naturally we aren't going to see many Stocktons (or Stockton-type players even with less skill) or Olajuwons(sp). You can't really expect a legend-like player in this era of running, flash and dunking.

FendeR's got a point. It's sad to see the league changing to this kind of style, but with Nash recently being MVP for his pass-first mentality, hopefully other young players will recognize that players like Tim Duncan, Kidd, and a select others have been successful by playing fundamentals, follow suit and go back to the 80's fundamentals. There's a few pass-first point guards, like Brevin Knight comes to mind, but they're not exactly the most talented in recent years. I know a lot of players have exceptional passing abilities, Baron Davis being one, but he still has a scorer's mentality, and those hybrids are everywhere, but I hope that is to change over the years.

[GloveGuy]

There is a guy called Sebastian, and he is a true PG too ( Telfair )

Please. Telfair grew up and learned on the streets of NYC. Plus, I'm not gonna call him great until he actually starts a full season for his team.

I don't think you guys really get it. Yes, there are those pass-first PGs out there, but how many of them are actually good. How many can make their teammates better, contribute with scoring, and then make differences on the defensive end? I know that there's plenty of "poor-men" but what point guard is going to take us into the next generation as a great.

I'd personally put GP on the 2nd tier....he's not on the same level as the other 3, especially Magic and Isiah....

No one in the first tier could dominate on the offensive and defensive end like GP. That's why he's a first tier great in my mind. Also, he's the only one of the four to score over 20,000 points, 8,000 assists, and 2,000 steals.

I'd take 2005 kidd over gp in his prime, just because of his work ethic and team leadership

Well that's because you're 1) an idiot, and 2) a homer.

[havasufalls]

PG's are required to be capable of doing more now a days. if a team has a choice of a pg that can score and pass or one that can jus pass then there gonna go wit the multi-talented PG. Not to say that passin PG's cannt score its jus if they can score on their own that brings another weapon to the floor that the defense has to account for.

I also agree that GP is definitely a first tier point guard. He may lack the rings but he is one of the greatest. Also i would take any Jason Kidd i really cant c anything wrong with him now or in his prime.

[air gordon]

interesting thread, glove. keep in mind most of the PG's you list are some of the greatest PG's of all time or of their era. and the criteria you list there- that's asking for a pretty damn good basketball player. i don't think even magic johnson played much defense

and i do agree with some of the other posts.. athleticism and versatility has changed the game/classic positions somewhat.

whoever said hakeem was a classic center was way off. he would study guards like jordan to get moves. he would face up big men and use his quickness more often then bang away in the post... and the dream shake was a fadeway jumper

[cyanide]

I think Johnson was a good defender, at least he was by default since he was taller than most point guards anyway...

I think the Dream Shake was two or three fake moves before a shot (either fadeaway/jumper/layup)

[End Boss]

Well that's because you're 1) an idiot, and 2) a homer.

it wasn't mean to be a statement putting payton down.. so there's no need to take it personally.. I just think really highly of kidd..