Terrorist Attack on London

[Riot]

WHAT ABOUT ME?!?!

[Jackal]

See what I mean, everythings just a mockery now days.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Disagreeing is the main element of debating. I even took something personal but didn't swear at the person I was talking to. Try to understand what I'm saying..

Don't bother Leg, been there, done that. 6 months ago, I believe.

I've been around long enough that that's the kind of response you'll get. When I call someone a dipshit for being a dipshit, I get PM's saying, oh awesome & what not. Say something good about someone, you're a cocksucker. Hehe, the new era of the NLSC.

Not only. Just the way the world works.

fuck the Euro's

So, you're American, African or Oceanian, right?

You all are a bunch of cocks, you work harder to be funny/different than trying to unite the community.

I see you are reverting to your old self...

That tide, I'm beginning to see it, it's filled with Euro cunts & 12 year old teenie boppers.

Wrong Tide.

Bring back the Shanes, Yohances & Matthews to regular posters. Hell, I'd even take back Tales over you dumbwitted fuckers.

To each his own. Hehe, you're a good guy, it's sometimes you'll throw a fit and go rampant... you'll be back to normal in a day or two. Summer must be pretty boring over there...

[Riot]

:shake: See what I mean, everythings just a mockery now days.

I thought me and you were homies but I guess not. I think I'm going to go make a freestyle about you.

[Jackal]

Back to normal in a day or two, seriously reconsidering that one.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Back to normal in a day or two, seriously reconsidering that one.

Hehe, you'll see, you'll see... crap, you got spit all over my mug...

Anyways, time to go, so I'm off like Eddy Curry near a buffet table. Peace.

[Jackal_]

Well I guess you said what you wanted to say Jackal. Suprised about what you had to say...I'll just stay outta your way I guess..

[The Other Kevin]

It's just human nature, anyone with half a brain would run...

that counts bush out automatically

[Emiliano]

This is very sad....
Life is sometimes unfair...

[Matthew]

I didnt say its Bush's fault but he can spend more money on helping his own people that spending it on weapons and funding the army. Medical bills are huge these days and Im sure you've seen the movie John Q where it gives a rough idea of whats happening in the USA.

I know, that was a great movie. Any movie with Denzel is gold. And no country is perfect. But imagine if America wasn't in Iraq or Afghanistan, terrorism would be flurishing right now. Sure it hasnt been stopped, but it has been contained.

Look at Saudi Arabia, people are afraid to even shop lift because they know if they get caught the punishment is serious but what happens here? Some of them escape or are release 15 years later only to go back and do the same thing they did.

Agreed, that is fucked. Its the same here. I hate soft punishment. But at the same time, if you steal an apple over there, is that really worth a hand being cut off?

Intelligence? yeah the same one which messed up and told everyone their were nuclear bombs in Iraq...well where are those warheads now?

Different type of intelligence. But seeing you must bring it up, imo, there are nuclear and chemical warheads there. If Sadaam was able to hide for 20 years in a hole, how hard would it be for them to dig a hole and put weapons in there? Think about it.

And dont we do the same thing?

No, and if they did I'd change my stance. I doubt that President Bush tells his troops to storm a school, hold the schoolkids hostage until all terrorists surrender, and then murder as many kids as possible becuase the demands arent met.

Reasons to bitch?, it is our fault because we are using the wrong tactics and methods.

Well tell me, what methods should we be using?

Im not sure what your family thought you but people dont fuck themselves. It does matter where your from, because theirs a different perspective depending on where you live and your background.

OK fine, you want to know where I grew up. I grew up in parramatta, which is lower class (no, not the ghetto). I lived in the same street as drug dealers and junkies, which effected my brothers who would turn to drugs. I've had a knife and a gun pulled to my head, seen my mother threatnened and my brother's assualted. Shit happens. Right now though, I'm not living in parra, but i still go for the eels.

The above <<<< 100.000 human lifes,including hopes, dreams, love, pain, hope.
I'm sure you comprehend.

I've looked all over the net and i cant see any figures of 100,000 deaths in afganistan from the war.. I'd like to see some proof.

Yes... 'intelligence' ... must be a coincidence that even the Americans do not dare use this word along with 'George W. Bush' in the same sentence...

That's so relivent...

On a serious note, if intelligence was so developed, then secret-covert operations could just root out the seed of teh problem and eradicate it. Like off-ing Laden or Saddam. But that was not the most profitable choice, now, was it?

Oh yeah, america and the coalition are really profiting from this aren't they . And Sadaam has been caught.

Riiighttt... when American innocents die, it's all about the bad, inhuman terrorists

Of course its bad when anyone dies, Iraqi's, Afghan's, Russian's, Spanish, English, Aussies, Americans... Muslims, Christians, Buddist's.. it doesnt matter.

But yet while you sit in judgement of america, they are not targeting civilians. Terrorists are. That is a huge difference.

So why is bin Laden still not found? Why shift attention to Iraq all of a sudden when bin Laden's the guy that caused the whole 9/11 to happen? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't bin Laden the leader of the Taliban?

The Taliban is a haven for Osama. He is not in charge of it.

Ay yes... the real problem in this debate is who gets the upper hand, eh? Not the facts, not the truth, not th ekilling, not the lies, not the generations lost in a war for alterior motives, no, nothing like that. It's whether YOU are brainwashed or not.

Or maybe you are the one brainwashed. Here's somthing interesting, I've met a fair few Iraqi's and Afgahns, normal everyday people, and not one has criticised the liberation of both countries. Not one. It's all people from other countries. You criticise america for not minding its own business.. maybe you should yourselves to the same standard.

That's it, I'm through with this, I cannot stand seeing young people wasting themselves on such BS. I'm done with this.

Mike Davis lives on.

Cambyman, I understand what you're trying to say and I respect that. But you have to realize that this is a debate. Last time I checked a debate wasn't about telling other people to go "Fuck themselves". You're a moderator, supposed to be an example. We're all entitled to our opinions and I'm sure both you and I feel strongly about this issue...but again going off on someone isnt the point. Instead of swearing at someone just make a better run at your debate...

Me telling Steve to go fuck himself had nothing to do with the debate. It was becuase he did in fact make it personal, trying to make out that what i was saying was influence by me being "from a rich part of sydney". I think thats a bit judgemental "omg, you have to be rich to disagree with us".

People of his kind, with a defined purpose inmind, are not really scared of dying. In HIS mind, Allah will reward him in death for his service against global evil... He's not running scared, he's just trying to prolong his organization's activity for as long as he can.

And in your mind everyone else is brainwashed, does that make you right as well?

[FendeR`]

Ay yes... the real problem in this debate is who gets the upper hand, eh? Not the facts, not the truth, not th ekilling, not the lies, not the generations lost in a war for alterior motives, no, nothing like that. It's whether YOU are brainwashed or not.

I don't take kindly to people insisting that I'm brainwashed because I disagree with them. You act like we have Propaganda towers in our backyards or something. You act like this whole time I haven't been listening to any of your points, and I'm not being true to myself. I stopped really considering your point of view as soon as you stopped considering mine. You seem to be acting like you're above everyone else, and that sickens me.

[Jackal_]

*Looks down at Fender*

LOL j.k bro

[GloveGuy]

This is in response to...I don't know who the fuck, but it's just my two cents...

You guys throw around this number 100,000 like it's nothing -- like it's justified. When America went through 9/11, we had how many, 5,000 deaths? While that number was ridiculously large, it sparked a pride in Americans because it wasn't just 5,000 deaths -- it was 5,000 American deaths. For people who experienced the death of a loved one, it hit them even harder.

So now we have 100,000 something Iraqi deaths(is it really that much?) and to us it's just not nearly as important. It fails to hit us harder because we're not Iraqi, because we weren't one of the Iraqi kids who have recently become orphans, because we're not one of the Iraqi mothers or fathers who have had to bury their child. Death is what it is. Each life is equally as important to at least one person than another life is to another. Just because these people aren't American or because they weren't killed by terrorists, doesn't mean we can call them justified. We're not in their shoes.

Replace 100,000 Iraqi deaths with 100,000 American deaths -- the nation would go crazy. Think about it...

BTW, I used to think that stuff like the Presidential Election and the War on Iraq were important, but I'm really starting to not give a fuck. The real issue(s) is the porverty situation in Africa. This is where the U.S. should be putting their dollar bills.

[Riot]

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a night, teach a man who to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime.

You can't just give them money, you have to make sure it goes to the right place and you have to teach them how to live on their own and give them water, food, shelter, and teach them about sexual education. But just shipping over money isn't going to solve the problems in Africa.

[Matthew]

For starters im still not sure if 100,00 casualties is an accurate number. 2nd of all, is it from the coaliton, or terroists, and 3rd of all it is a big deal. Sadaam killed around 2 million people during his reign. Every Iraqi I have spoken to is happy the liberation took place. So who are you to criticise it. If Iraq wanted it, and it was for the greater good, who can legitimately criticise it?

[Riot]

Like I've said before, you can't just look at the lives that are living now. Think of the future generations of Iraqi's that are being saved by this process. 100,000 deaths is a shit load but it's all for a good cause.

[Matthew]

I wonder how many german civillians died in ww2, when america, france, england and russia had to defeat the nazi's?

[Riot]

http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko12530/ww2.htm

[Matthew]

1 million civillians.. I wonder what the opinion is of those casualties...

[GloveGuy]

For starters im still not sure if 100,00 casualties is an accurate number. 2nd of all, is it from the coaliton, or terroists, and 3rd of all it is a big deal. Sadaam killed around 2 million people during his reign. Every Iraqi I have spoken to is happy the liberation took place. So who are you to criticise it. If Iraq wanted it, and it was for the greater good, who can legitimately criticise it?

So by your words, as long as we stay under 2 million people, we're fine? It is a big deal; we're in the 21st century -- civilian deaths are supposed to be avoided. It might not hit your heart like it hits some, but that's for the reasons I previously stated.

So you've spoken to a few Iraqis...Now tell me, Matthew, did any of the people to whom you spoke lose a family member, a friend, a person in within their neighborhood?

Riot, we've already gone over that it's important that money goes to where it should. I was just trying to say that the situation in Africa is the more important issue.

[FendeR`]

"Africa is the more important issue" - So we should just completely back out of Iraq to help Africa? We can only help so many people at once. And it's not like we're just sitting on our asses not helping Africa, we're trying to combat another major problem in terrorism.

[Riot]

Yeah, who are you to tell who should get help and who shouldn't? If you think Africa is in such bad shape why don't the other countries do something to help them out? Why does America have to lead the charge?

[Mentally Hilarious]

Since I in no way have the patience to quote 10 users from 4 pages, I'll just use nifty little headings to make you see what I'm rambling on about.
Before I add myself to the verbial ring of discussion, I'd better qualify my opinions a bit.

I study these things on a magisterial (is that the correct spelling?) level and have been intrested in politics/religion/foreign affairs all my life, and I'm also involved in the regional politics of my home town. So I have a bit of knowledge and experience. So tah, let the ramblings continue.

London

Awful, too bad, hysteria, media gets to once again flaunt it's ugly face. Yeah, it's horrible that this happens. And I'm saddend by the unneccessary loss of life. But not more in this case than in, say, Rwanda just because of the location and manner of tragedy. This sucks, and it proofs that an open society is vunerable and strong. It also proofs that the market is the most cynical abstraktoid ever concieved by man.

Anyhow, it's a shame and I hope that a group or organization can claim responsibility for the bombings. But let's face it in a cynical, realist way that the action in itself and it's reprecussions is mainly mental. The physical, and political ramafications are small on a macro level. The mental bit will show that we're still more than vunerable to these kind of attacks.


Al-Qaeda

Haven't taken responsibility for London, but certain linguistical signs in the letters sent out by the organization point to the fact that they might be involved even if they're not completly responsible for it. But regarding a previous post about Al-Q's involment in Afghanistan; they had camp spread throughout the land and shared dogmatic fundamentals with the taliban goverment. But in no way did they run the country.

In the same manner, there are no proof to that Al-Q had anything with the nation of Iraq to do. Saddam expressed that Al-Q did some good things and Bin-Ladin met with him at several occations. But so did most other arabic/mid-west leaders do. So that link/reason for the war was just a way of consolidating a somewhat unsure reason for attack. Which is sad.


China

Someone (Riot) said that China wasn't on the way of becoming a superpower. What a load of bullcrap.

China is the strongest growing nation, economically and in certain aspects military in the world. And they have the resources to indeed challenge Pax Americana.

"eliminate your enemies"

Exerpt from the Qouran from Jackal (I think...). According to more secularized Quoran scholars this should not be interpreted in the "let's smash his head in"-way. But rather that one should use religion and convert the "evil" teachings of other religions through prayer and fasting. By supreme zeal one can convert wrong-belivers.

Another interesting note is that jihad has a similar meaning. In no way is it expressed that a jihad should be preformed through violence. Rather the opposite.

War on Terror

Can't you just laugh at this preposterous idea? War on terror? Next up, straight from the man who cannot speak in complete senses... WAR ON JEALOUSY!

Stupid idea.

And what really annoys me is the clear fact that this war on terror spawns MORE organizations that are prone to bombing western countries. More organizations with a clear anti-USA message. Tch.

EDIT:

Yeah, who are you to tell who should get help and who shouldn't? If you think Africa is in such bad shape why don't the other countries do something to help them out? Why does America have to lead the charge?

Quite simply put. USA vetoes any suggestion that doesn't benifit them directly. Without Americas support (from within g8) we can't do much because the other 7 leaders won't do shit. That's the short version, if you need more explaining just ask.

[Riot]

Well, if you look at most miltary operations over the course of history they all have one thing in common: it benefited them in some way. You aren't just going to throw billions of dollars away and not get anything back. It's not just ther American way, it's the human way in general.

I remember Jackal said it best a few debates ago. Politics is all about "you scratch my back and I'l stratch yours."

[Mentally Hilarious]

Well, if you look at most miltary operations over the course of history they all have one thing in common: it benefited them in some way. You aren't just going to throw billions of dollars away and not get anything back. It's not just ther American way, it's the human way in general.

I remember Jackal said it best a few debates ago. Politics is all about "you scratch my back and I'l stratch yours."

The problem is that american foreign politics is, throughout history and still, extremely shotsighted. That's why they wont let countries develop internal markets with aid. That's why a complete write-off can never happen. That's why a joint effort towards helping the African continent with a lot of their internal and regional problems will never happen as long as either USA is run by the right wing republicans/democrats (yeah, you're both right wing nutjobs, doesn't matter who they put in office. Short term ((as per the neo-liberal agenda, and the lobbying system)) is all that americans have) or the rest of the world (read: the other parts of g7) doesn't give USA the bird.

Face it, the political system in USA although it was once a foremost democracy is now a system in which people not the politics matter. And where all you really get is right wing ideologies. And where companies through lobbying dictates what happens.