On Kobe Bryant

[Andrew]

Why should there be offensive reactions if its not an offensive picture?[/b]

Simple. There shouldn't be.

Anyway...

he is playing very similar to Mike did in his last days as a bull... Not quite as good tho

The advantage Kobe has on the Jordan of 96-98 is his athleticism. He's probably playing more like the early 90s Jordan...though as he's playing with another 25ppg+ scorer, his scoring average is lower.

[Rens]

You see... Matthew is saying something provoking to me, yet nothing happens. Just as a tip this is the kind of thing that makes peolpe think you aren't consistent in your decisions. Kinda like referees.

[Matthew]

But Kobe seems at times happier with his jumper than driving it right down the lane, which was MJ's style in 96-98. Kobe is only what? 24? 25? That's scary...

[Clinton]

Matthew is saying something provoking to me, yet nothing happens.

Him calling you a different name is the same as calling someone queer? I can see being called a name apart from your own offends you aswell. So maybe you might think before doing it again.

[Andrew]

Well, it's kind of provoking me after I simply posted a warning after comments that I recognised as offensive. There was no need for a discussion on the meaning of queer or the rest of it.

[Rens]

He didn't call me a different name, he said

"If I could be like ben..."

to get a reaction from me, as if it's my life-time goal to be Ben. It doesn't offend me, I like Ben (yet don't awnt to be him, I like being me). But the fact that Matthew, a moderator here (supposedly being an example to other posters), gets away with things where others don't does.

[Rens]

It was a reply to my post, you can read back if you'd like.

[Andrew]

I concede that, to tell you the truth I did not pay much attention to it as I was trying to get the discussion back on topic. But yes, I concede that was posted to provoke a reaction from you. It's a little different from calling someone a homosexual in an offensive manner, but still intended to provoke a reaction.

[Divan Santana]

Thanks Andrew for looking after this place and stopping things before getting out of hand. Makes this place alot better than it already is(which is pretty good)

[Boyk]

ok this post wen from, looking at how good kobe is to sumfin about homosexuals...........ahhhhh this shit pisses me off.
just stick to the topic, instead calling someone a name becuase of there avatar.

[Rens]

Well since my original reply on the subject was ignored I thought the discussion was making a turn

[Eugene]

Well, Heaven forbid your comments should go unnoticed, Rens.

In fact, let me respond to many of the replies made concerning my original post. This'll go in the order in which they were initially posted...

Dert, you said,

"And when he passes gas, it smells like a fresh spring [morning]..."

That's biochemically impossible, so I'm going to say, no...

"He craps bars of gold..."

I seriously doubt that, since it is, again, biochemically impossible.

"He can get your woman pregnant just by looking at her..."

Again, that's biologically inconceivable...

"Too bad he can't make his teammates better..."

I'll answer that in a little bit.

Electrifyer said,

"... if he was really as good as everyone bills him to be, then he shouldn't have allowed LA to slip..."

That'll be answered along with, "he doesn't make his teammates better,"

Then Rens said,

"...great players get great stats while actually leading their team to greatness..."

Almost there... I'll respond in just a second...

Andrew said,

"I read something to that effect a while back..."

Yes, you did, in a piece by Charlie Rosen, who writes for Page 2. I respect him as a writer, and that's partially where I got the inspiration for this post. He shows the game from a totally different perspective, and I began to see things I didn't see normally. Thanks, Charlie Rosen.

But to the question at hand...

I'm going to say Kobe's one-on-one ability is an asset, even in the triangle.

Kobe's ability to take people one-on-one is so good, that he can get by his defender in just 3 dribbles and a first step. He is extremely efficient when he gets the ball and attacks decisively. It is when he's dancing with the ball once the double team has come, when his abilities become detrimental to his team. If he quickly gets rid of the ball as soon as the double team comes, then he improves the ball movement and player movement, and consequently improves the triangle offense.

He's become so good that he believes he can beat the double team. He still needs to realize to some degree that it's not about him; that it's not about whether or not he can beat the other team's defense, it's about whether his team can beat the defense. When he comes to that realization, and he's starting to come around, I think he and the Lakers will be at their respective peaks.

As for Kobe not making his teammates/team better...

I'm sure you'll cite first the opening of the season, when the Lakers struggled without Shaq.

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again, the Lakers are built around Shaq, not Kobe. You can't expect to take the foundation of the building away and expect a single pillar to hold up the entire structure.

Shaq was the centerpiece of the Triangle Offense. When he went out, the focus shifted to Kobe. It became a whole new offense because Kobe doesn't play the same position as Shaq. Add to that the fact that none of the other Lakers could make a single shot, and becomes clear that while Kobe did the best he could, but the Lakers were doomed to struggle.

As soon as you say, "Kobe should have made his team better while Shaq was out," then you're dismissing the importance of Shaq on this team. Rens made a great point -- the space that Shaq creates makes everyone else better. They get open looks and better movement. Without that, the Lakers are going to struggle because not only does it take away that spacing, it takes away 1/3 (the biggest one third you'll ever see) of the Triangle, and completely changes the offense.

The Laker's poor start had very little, if anything at all, to do with how Kobe played.

But, does Kobe make his teammates better? He's the one who sets up the offense for the Lakers. The other teammates depend on him for a bulk of the scoring. He gets everyone involved in the offense -- that doesn't easily show up in the stats, you have to watch the game. He's got a career high in assists, and it's not because Shaq has a career high in scoring (well, because he doesn't). When Kobe's in the game, the Triangle flows better, because Kobe now draws and takes advantage of the double team, and everyone benefits from the triangle. So does he make his teammates better? When you take into account the entire game, and the result, yes, Kobe makes his teammates and the team better. And I'd be hard pressed to cite evidence otherwise.

All the best,

Eugene

[Boyk]

and once again another quality post by Eugene
I have the biggest repect for you mate, your posts rule.

By the way, I have noticed as of recently that Kobe will pull up for a shot when the double comes, but then all of a sudden Bullet a pass(Its really fast) out of nowhere to a open guy, hes the only guy in the NBA that I have seen that uses that pass effectively

That is something hes done to "Help" and "Get his other teammates involved" by drawing the double and dishing, i really like that part of his game.

Damn that pass is viciously fast though, it would leave a mark if it hit ya lol

[EGarrett]

Eugene...what country are you from?

One thing I've noticed is that Kobe seems to have a lot of popularity with people outside the US...but here (not counting people in LA) no one likes him. Interesting.

Another thought. I wonder why T-Mac can go in SLAM magazine and say that he's the "best player in the world" and make those other claims and people (myself included) don't seem to mind. But Kobe gets disliked by everyone?

I don't think it's a matter of success, because I still found myself put off by Kobe even when the Lakers were horrible without Shaq. I think that people put off an air about them sometimes that is arrogant and goes beyond words. Some people (like McGrady) seem to have an identifiable quality about them that makes people want to see them succeed and others seem to betray a certain true cockiness (maybe) that causes people to want to see them fail.

As an aside...I also noticed that...when watching American Idol (yes I know but the show and the judging fascinate me)...that all the women on the loved Bettis Richardson and I thought that was cool and I was happy for him...but when women flocked to Corey Clark I just found it irritating.

Hmmmm...maybe it just goes to show that body language speaks more than words sometimes.

[Eugene]

EG...

I'm not certain how this has a bearing on the discussion, but I attend college in Middlebury, Vermont. My permanent residence is in Suffolk County, on Long Island, NY. I was, however, born originally in Korea, moved to America -- Seattle, in fact -- and subsequently moved to Long Island with my family.

Perhaps it's because I haven't paid attention to it, but I haven't noticed that disparity between the people outside of the US as opposed to those who live in US.

Perhaps Kobe may come off as arrogant, but the way he is perceived is not in question. I was merely pointing out how great a basketball player he has become.

As far as his image is concerned, I always viewed him as a focused, well-spoken young man. And the way he plays... well, there are players who are just on the court, and players who command attention when their on the court, like Michael Jordan. Likewise, I always felt that Kobe, whenever he was on court, made an impact in the game, something intangible and abstract, perhaps, but impact nonetheless. He also looks like he's having fun while he's playing, that he really loves the game. And I think that's what I most identify with about him -- that he really enjoys playing the game.

It's an interesting observation you made, EG, but again, I'm not asking anyone else to like him. I'm merely stating how good he's become, and why he's one of my most favorite players.[/i]

[Andrew]

One thing I've noticed is that Kobe seems to have a lot of popularity with people outside the US...but here (not counting people in LA) no one likes him. Interesting.

Because NBA coverage is more limited for those of us not in the US, we tend to support teams and players that we actually get to see or hear about. Back in the mid 90s, the only NBA team merchandise you'd really see in Australia would be Chicago and Orlando. There were a few other teams, but Chicago and Orlando were the most common - hence the most popular. Seattle gained some popularity in 1996, but that soon faded.

Also, because we don't live in a city/state an NBA team calls its home, we have no sense of obligation to support the home NBA team. We are therefore free to choose any team or player as our favourite (yes, I know there are probably Knicks fans in Chicago and Lakers fans in Milwaukee). We're also not aware, or at least we aren't affected by rivalries between cities.

The Michael Jordan comparisons contribute to people disliking Kobe, because:

a) People who are dislike Michael Jordan are sick of hearing about him, and as long as Kobe's game is similar enough to draw comparisons, Michael Jordan is going to be mentioned once in a while when Kobe is discussed.

b) People who like Michael Jordan are sick of the "Next Jordan" talk, and will consistently downplay Kobe's accomplishments and talent.

But, like Michael Jordan was in his better years, Kobe is considered a superstar in both talent and market value. The NBA wants us to like Kobe, and to talk about him using phrases like "All-Star calibre" and "best in the game". But of course, like every athlete/celebrity that is forced down our throat, we end up disliking Kobe rather than liking him.

[ningtong88]

Good job, Eugene. I really like what you said about Kobe.

[scubilete]

a) People who are dislike Michael Jordan are sick of hearing about him, and as long as Kobe's game is similar enough to draw comparisons, Michael Jordan is going to be mentioned once in a while when Kobe is discussed.

I like Kobe for being a Laker, I don't know what the case would be if he were from other team, but I guess that wouldn't stop, cause I like all original Lakers no matter where they play. E. Jones, E. Campbell, N. Van Exel, etc.

However, I have to admit I used to hate Shaq bfore he became a Laker.

b) People who like Michael Jordan are sick of the "Next Jordan" talk, and will consistently downplay Kobe's accomplishments and talent.

Too bad, Kobe has the abilities to become an Icon just as he did.

[Andrew]

I don't deny that, I was just offering reasons as to why Kobe is disliked.

[EGarrett]

Because NBA coverage is more limited for those of us not in the US, we tend to support teams and players that we actually get to see or hear about. Back in the mid 90s, the only NBA team merchandise you'd really see in Australia would be Chicago and Orlando. There were a few other teams, but Chicago and Orlando were the most common - hence the most popular. Seattle gained some popularity in 1996, but that soon faded.

I figured as much...

Also, because we don't live in a city/state an NBA team calls its home, we have no sense of obligation to support the home NBA team. We are therefore free to choose any team or player as our favourite (yes, I know there are probably Knicks fans in Chicago and Lakers fans in Milwaukee). We're also not aware, or at least we aren't affected by rivalries between cities.

Good point. In addition, if you don't speak the language that the players are being interviewed in (I know Australians speak English but in other places)...it becomes very difficult to read their pacing and choice of words and thus very difficult to understand their true personality. Americans might get a more clear impression of Kobe's cockiness that isn't clear when he's dubbed over. Likewise...we aren't really able to learn much about Yao Ming, Peja Stojakovic and others through interviews because we aren't hearing them speaking their native language. I know I like the way Dirk, Peja and Yao play but now that I think about it, I don't understand much if anything about their personality. I imagine it's the same way for non-English speakers watching Kobe.

In addition, women and very casual fans seem to like Kobe also. What stands out to me about these groups is that they either don't actually watch basketball or don't understand the game enough to read into his style of play.

The Michael Jordan comparisons contribute to people disliking Kobe, because:

a) People who are dislike Michael Jordan are sick of hearing about him, and as long as Kobe's game is similar enough to draw comparisons, Michael Jordan is going to be mentioned once in a while when Kobe is discussed.

b) People who like Michael Jordan are sick of the "Next Jordan" talk, and will consistently downplay Kobe's accomplishments and talent.

I have to disagree here. Lots of players have been compared to Jordan (Stackhouse, Hill, Carter, T-Mac, Miner) without this kind of backlash.

Well...I've been thinking about this for a few days and I think I figured out why I like certain people and dislike others who are in similar high positions. To put it briefly, it has to do with how honest the person seems to be about themselves to others. You can often tell a person's true feelings about themselves and others through their body language...and when their actions don't coincide with what they tell the camera it's quickly apparent that they are "fake"...or attempting to portray an image of themselves that isn't their true personality.

WARNING: LONG-WINDEDNESS AHEAD

To go more into depth, I'll attempt to show how this applies directly to Kobe and Tracy. Hopefully this won't come off as Kobe bashing...but rather attempting to explain what it is about him that makes most people dislike him beyond simple jealousy...

Whenever Kobe Bryant gives an interview...I get the firm impression that what he's saying isn't necessarily what he's really thinking...but what he's decided he wants people to think he thinks. I'm never really interested in watching any of his interviews (except to catch him in lies) because it seems obvious that his image and a good portion of his words are BS. He attempts to come off as being humble and unselfish when on the court he doesn't seem to get his teammates involved in the game at all. I didn't like it when Jordan would do this either. Also, from his teammates comments it's clear that none of them are very fond of him as a person either. The guy is pretty clearly the best player in the league on an individual level...and he knows it...but he seems to condescend to the public by refusing to be honest about his thoughts and feelings.

McGrady seems to have a similar attitude to Kobe...but he's been very honest about his feelings in the past and honest about his insecurities. He says he thinks he's the best player in the league now...and a lot of people agree with him. But when he came to Orlando he also said "this is gonna be Grant's team...I haven't done anything in this league yet." When interviewed on the bench in the All-Star game last year...he was asked why he was performing so much better than last year and he said that "Last year in this game I was nervous . . . first All-Star game . . . best players in the world . . . this year I'm a lot more relaxed and ready to show my skills." It's clear he's just honest about what he thinks...and he has insecurities and confidences like everyone else and he lets us know about them. That makes me very interested in what he has to say when he's interviewed. It also makes me able to identify with him on some level and thus want to see him succeed.

Other players like Grant Hill and Iverson have very different images. But they seem to be honest about themselves so it makes people more able to identify with them. Guys like Kobe (and LL Cool J...don't get me started on him) who come off "fake" tend to be wholly disliked by people who recognize that they're just trying to portray an image for their personal benefit.

[scubilete]

Well EG.

I imagine it's the same way for non-English speakers watching Kobe.

MJ is loved all over the world and he didn't come from a non-english speaker country. Kobe has his fans all over the world just as any other player and a good point of Kobe being hated for some it could be the way he is. I mean, if you see Kobe, he's not a GQ like MJ, he's a more American Youth representation, hype, likes rap or R&B, etc. Some cultures find that using tatooes is disgusting and just cause that they hate Iverson or Sheed.

I'm never really interested in watching any of his interviews (except to catch him in lies) because it seems obvious that his image and a good portion of his words are BS.

If he gets interviewed is because he did something bad or good, and sometimes for being the star which in neither ways would lead him to lie, if he did something bad, I don't think he gets an interview or would come blaming his teammates like Shaq did few months ago. He would explain the situation. Let's take his 12 3pts, did he lie when he said he saw his shots were getting in so he decided to keep shooting those?, I don't think so. Let's see his game against the Knicks where he was simply the show, did he lie there?, No.

He attempts to come off as being humble and unselfish when on the court he doesn't seem to get his teammates involved in the game at all. I didn't like it when Jordan would do this either.

First of all, you are not going to see a player who admits he's selfish. NEVER. MJ didn't admit it when he was in Chicago while Grant and Pippen were complaining he wanted to do it all by himself. McGrady wouldn't admit it if he were. Iverson doesn't admit it. None of the players would admit they are selfish if they were for real. I have to agree that Kobe is selfish cause as a Laker fan I've seen some opportunities where he's forced plays but comes to my mind that those plays were designed for him, I bet Kobe is the only selfish guy who is among the Assist leaders this season, #11. It's not Kobe job to give the ball to someone else who is in better shooting position, but he's doing it, does that mean he's getting his teammates involved? I don't know, you tell me. Maybe he's the first one to give an assist to himself.

As a shooting guard he might be selfish and has nothing to do with making his teammates better either, the shooting guard responsibility is to hit big shots, that's what Kobe does, I've seen games where he performs bad but that happens to anyone. Just like Iverson as well, or Allan Houston, let's say Ray Allen or the same Reggie, you can't ask those players to make their teammates better bcause they are not in there to make anyone better but their own team. Kidd, Marbury, Nash, Van Exel, among others, their responsibility is to make their teammates better cause they are point guards, they are hired to get there and distribute the ball.

[EGarrett]

Scub...

As I said, it was just the impression that I got from Kobe. I don't expect players to say they are selfish...but I expect them to try and speak from the heart when they're interviewed. To me, Kobe doesn't do that. But I think you're getting away from the point.

If you like Kobe, that's fine. Are there any players that you dislike? Or maybe just any famous people? Are there some successful people that you are happy for and other successful people that you aren't? If so, why don't you like them? Maybe you get the same "fake" impression from them that I get from people like Kobe and LL Cool J...

[Heiks]

How good is Kobe Bryant right now? Is there anything he's not done this season? Is this post going to be just made up of questions? Is it?

Kobe Bryant, a well-known gym rat, locked himself in the gym and hit the weights hard over the off season, like he does every off season, and put on 15 pounds of lean steely muscle. Where he used to look like a lean cheetah with his wiry muscles, now he looks like a jaguar, still lean, but more fiercely powerful.

And I knew, from the start of the season, that the extra muscles were going to let him get more rebounds. His strength could now be used to bang people down low, to post up, play rough defense. If he could find a dedication to setting up his teammates, I knew he was going to get numerous triple doubles.

He has 5 triple doubles so far in the season. Many more times he was an assist or rebound away from it.

He's averaging career highs in minutes, steals per game, assists per game, rebounds per game, three point percentage and achieved the highest scoring average with 28.2 points per game since his 2000-01 season, when he averaged 28.5 points per game.

He's the main reason, although Shaq also plays a big part, for the Lakers finding themselves at .500 currently on a 4 game winning streak, the longest winning streak right now (that's not really important, is it?).

Kobe has averaged just under 40 points per game in the last four games.

But that's all just numbers.

Just watch him play, and you'll see the difference in mentality and maturity.

He still plays the same dogged defense -- I really don't think it's a coincidence that Doug Christie doesn't shoot well when he's playing the Lakers -- but now has the star status that lets him get away with bumps and grabs.

His jumper has come a long way. Kobe has great extension on his jump shot that allows him to get the shot over the top of just about anyone. Michael Jordan never had such extension on his jumpshot. Combined with his jump ability and body control, his floater, lethal to 15 feet out, is for all intents and purposes, unstoppable.

That floater is a central part of his game. He gets to the paint, then he can use that floater, or spin either way, although he prefers pivoting on his left leg, or dish it off for a short jumper, or in Shaq's case, a big dunk.

His arms are long. That's really the reason why he gets great extension. Now with the added power, he can shoot a three pointer at a dead stop.

Sometimes, and maybe even too often, he settles for the 18 to 20 foot jump shot. Great when he's hitting, but... The game against Sacramento, Kobe drove the ball relentlessly. I've not seen any more of his games since then, but I imagine he's continued that.

His added bulk allows him to take a hit in the air and finish around the basket.

He has the double pump reverse with the left or the right hand, like Michael Jordan, but Kobe doesn't have Michael's hand size. The result, Kobe's moves going left are a little more out of control.

His passing game has improved so much, not only from making better passes, but from the willingness to make better passes. He doesn't discriminate (most times) who he passes to, as long as their open. Now, he'll make the pass that leads to the assist. He realizes not every pass has to be an assist. That being said, he's also added to his repetoir the jump-pass. You've seen it at least once or twice a game. He jumps as if to shoot, then fires a laser beam (not just a bullet, a laser beam) to a cutting Horry or Fox. You need a replay to make sure that he didn't pass the ball through somebody. His entry passes into Shaq are likewise accurate and solid.

Too often, Kobe will dribble more than is necessary then make a bad pass or take a tough shot. When it goes in, or the pass is successful, you ask, how did he do that? When it doesn't work, you ask, why did he do that? Hopefully, he'll grow out of it. What made Michael so effective was he only took 4 or 5 dribbles at the most before shooting or passing. Kobe's dribbling too much.

Kobe has the same dedication, will, fire, courage, whatever you want to call it, as all other great winners do. And, he's matured into a leader. He knows he has the star status and acts accordingly. He's become a team player.

As good as he is, he's still getting better, and that to me, is nearly inconceivable. But it's still his character, his motivation that makes him one of my most favorite players in the league.

All the best,

Eugene

music to my ears...

[benji]

...why do you people quote entire posts and then say one quick quip after...there's at least four of you that do this...

and your signature's bigger than Liam's mom....

[scubilete]

Right, it looks like if they don't quote the whole post, they are not expressing their appreciation for it.