just a question on yao

[j.23]

Nobody said he didn't. You were the one that said that Brad plays like a true center. We all know that Yao is not the type of player that's gonna overpower his opponent, like Shaq does. Yao is going to backdown a little, do some fakes and shoot over his opponent.

i was retorting at the fact that raynor was using brad miller's jumpshot as an argument of him not being a 'true center'. thanks for coming out

From 82games.com:
% of Yao's FGAs inside the paint: 54%
% of Miller's FGAs inside the paint: 44%

The great thing about Yao is that he has low post scoring abilities, AND a good jump shot. Miller is pretty much a jump shooter and passer on offense. You cannot just dump the ball into him and expect him to score. Other teams will not collapse on him with double and triple teams.

you can't fault miller for being a jumpshooter and a passer on offense simply because sacramento's offense is not designed for him to bang in the post. the premise of their offence is all about ball movement, slashing and all that shit. if miller is placed in the low post or around the basket constantly you're going to have mobley/stojakovic/bibby literally running into a brick wall. and, like i mentioned earlier miller is not the #1 or #2 option in sacramento so you cannot expect people to double or triple team him.

His rpg are deceiving because he's typically outrebounded by opposing centers. Do you understand what that means? On average, whatever no name center Miller faces does a better job rebounding than him. The stats show that he's NOT that good at doing the "dirty work."

have you watched any games this year? i beg to differ. 9 or something rebounds a game to go along with a block, how is that NOT showing he's good at doing the dirty work? let go off the stats and watch him play.

I take it that you mean "if Miller was 7'5 he'd be swatting shots like Yao as well." This is an example of a lame argument that makes unsupported claims based on a fantasy scenario. I could say that Earl Boykins would probably be an All-Star caliber player if he was 6'6. But he's NOT 6'6, is he? Just like Brad Miller's not 7'5. This argument is meaningless.

well if you want to go with that route then i can also suggest that yao's numbers can stay the same give or take a couple of minutes. i love fantasy scenarios.

[Fresh8]

If people wnat Yao to play awesome... tell the CHinese Government to let him go. Yao has one of the busiest shcedules amongst NBA players... he gets less rest than anyone!

[Andrew]

I too believe Yao would be voted to start in the All-Star game regardless of his nationality, as he is basically the best choice out West. While he has a huge fan following as a representative of a foreign country in the league, it's interesting to note that when he edged Shaq for the starting role last year, he won on paper ballots; Shaq actually beat him in online votes.

[Fresh8]

Therefore most of the votes were from the states.. but that wasnt the case last year or this year right andrew?

[Andrew]

Last year, Yao had the most paper votes, so he got more votes in North America - Shaq had more online votes. I'm not sure if that was the case this year with Yao setting a new record for number of votes (with Shaq placing second, also besting the mark set by Michael Jordan when online voting was first introduced).

[Chris_23]

Yao is a strong presence in the game. Every team besides Miami perhaps would benefit having this man on the court. Take Yao of Rockets and you would get Toronto Raptors few years ago with Carter injured.

[Fresh8]

true... well, maybe Americans like the idea of a tall asian ho is a freak!

[kevC]

Let's look into REAL stats not icky per game stats:

Yao's not the ball handler/passer that Brad is (which are not the primary skills needed for a C anyways)

but rebound %:
Yao: 15.8
Brad: 13.8

Possession %
Yao: 30.3
Brad: 21.4

PSA is 1.21 for both...

Yao gets to the line slightly better (0.49 fta per fga vs. 0.47)

note that Yao is far superior defensively:
DEF(points allowed per 10 shot attempts)
League Average: 9.25
Yao: 8.24
Brad: 9.10

Off Reb %
Yao: 10.0
Brad: 7.7

Def Reb %
Yao: 21.3
Brad: 19.7

Shot Block %
Yao: 3.63
Brad: 1.81

eFG%:
Yao: .545
Brad: .539

Points Scored Per Possession:
Yao: .984
Brad: .860

Points Produced Per 40 Minutes:
Yao: 20.6
Brad: 18.2

Points Actualized Per 48 Min Over Counterpart on Other Team:
Yao: +10.3
Brad: +2.5

Total Points Actualized Over Counterpart:
Yao: +354
Brad: +102

PWN

Seriously, why are you still arguing Brad's better when Yao beats Brad in every single offensive statistical category except turnovers and is a far superior defender?

[Matthew]

Becuase 1) Nobody cares about your statistics (anyone can make a formulae to prove a point) and 2) People who say "pwn" are faggots.

[JimRaynor55]

Becuase 1) Nobody cares about your statistics (anyone can make a formulae to prove a point)

So those stats are "made up?" Did you even bother looking at them?

and 2) People who say "pwn" are faggots.

[/quote]

Insulting someone is not a valid rebuttal.

[JimRaynor55]

i was retorting at the fact that raynor was using brad miller's jumpshot as an argument of him not being a 'true center'. thanks for coming out

My point was that camping out for the 20 foot jumper is pretty much ALL Miller does on offense.

you can't fault miller for being a jumpshooter and a passer on offense simply because sacramento's offense is not designed for him to bang in the post. the premise of their offence is all about ball movement, slashing and all that shit. if miller is placed in the low post or around the basket constantly you're going to have mobley/stojakovic/bibby literally running into a brick wall.

Nobody sticks to their offensive system 100%. I often see Webber getting isolated in the post, and Bibby getting side pick and rolls. That's not Princeton Offense, but the Kings do that anyway. A true post up center is a VERY valuable asset in this center-starved league. If Miller had the low post skills, they WOULD be utilized.

and, like i mentioned earlier miller is not the #1 or #2 option in sacramento so you cannot expect people to double or triple team him.

What? Opposing teams double or triple team you because they consider you worthy of it. It has nothing to do with how the guy's own team treats him.

have you watched any games this year? i beg to differ. 9 or something rebounds a game to go along with a block, how is that NOT showing he's good at doing the dirty work?

Because the percentage stats and differentials show that he's constantly outplayed by his opponents. How many times do

let go off the stats and watch him play.

In other words, you want to ignore the evidence and go by your own unsupported perceptions of him.

[MC Hao]

let go off the stats and watch him play.

In other words, you want to ignore the evidence and go by your own unsupported perceptions of him.

if you cant even trust your own eyes, what CAN you trust? stats can be deceiving, and if you study stats at all, you'll know that they don't mean a thing unless you perform all kinds of tests on them.

anyway, both miller and yao are excellent centers. if yao can become stronger, he can definitely dominate and become a great player. but right now, he's not great.

p.s. Yao Restaurant and Bar is in business NOW.

[j.23]

In other words, you want to ignore the evidence and go by your own unsupported perceptions of him.

unsupported perceptions? i've seen the guy play heaps of times, i KNOW how he plays otherwise i wouldn't be arguing on his behalf. and, if by evidence you mean stats then you might as well say bruce bowen is a chump on defense going by these eye popping statistics:

04-05: .74 steals per game, .47 blocks per game

yet somehow this guy is highly touted as one of the best defenders in the league.

[Matthew]

How can ANYONE say that Yao is more worthy of starting than Amare? Yao was hurting the rockets when their strategy was to get him the ball and run the offense through him. It wasnt untill Tmac started to take over did Houston start to play well, and I think that sums it up. Yao cannot carry a team. Yao is nothing more than a role player, and doesnt deserve to be in the top echelon of nba players at the moment. It's just that simple.

[Jing]

In other words, you want to ignore the evidence and go by your own unsupported perceptions of him.

unsupported perceptions? i've seen the guy play heaps of times, i KNOW how he plays otherwise i wouldn't be arguing on his behalf. and, if by evidence you mean stats then you might as well say bruce bowen is a chump on defense going by these eye popping statistics:

04-05: .74 steals per game, .47 blocks per game

yet somehow this guy is highly touted as one of the best defenders in the league.

thats cause he forces guys off the ball, keeps guys from getting balls, or forcing them to miss shots even though he doesn't block them or whatnot.

[Drex]

How can ANYONE say that Yao is more worthy of starting than Amare?

Who said that?? I would pick Amare over Yao

[Matthew]

Well people are saying that Yao is the most deserving center in the west. Amare has played center all year, but wasnt center on the ballot... so Yao won by default, not becuase he was deserving.

[ShivaSquad]

yea... i would vote for amare EASILY over yao. if u wanna go to the stats sheet... amare has over 26 ppg, and more rebounds then yao (9. something).... plus the suns r the 2nd best team in the league... and its not like amare is the only good player there. u got 2 other all stars around him in nash and marion... and JJ and Q r both very good players as well... amare deserves it more too bad he wasnt a C

[Matthew]

He is a center though, its just that nba.com didnt list him as one on the ballot.

[kevC]

Becuase 1) Nobody cares about your statistics (anyone can make a formulae to prove a point) and 2) People who say "pwn" are faggots.

Statistics are a measure of what a player has accomplished. It is the only measure that we have, the only other way to judge players is to make completely subjective observations. Stats cannot be looked at in a biased manner. If we just watch the players, we can think Brad Miller is a better rebounder because we have no data but our tainted observation. But if we look at the rebound %, we can never say Brad Miller is better if Yao has 15.8 and Brad has 13.8. That'd be like saying 14 > 16, which is simply an untrue statement.

Also, I would pick Amare over Yao too if Amare was listed as a C

[ShivaSquad]

no u wouldnt

[Matthew]

Stats can be misleading though. Miller has Webber alongside him getting rebounds. Yao has Juwan Howard. Webber is getting 9.8 boards, howard 5.5.

Statistics are a measure of what a player has accomplished.

But they can only go so far. Is Ben Gordon a better 3 point shooter than Ray Allen? Is Brain Cook a better 3 point shooter than Michael Redd? If you were to go just by stats you would say so.

In other words, stats arent the be all and end all of arguements.

[kevC]

no u wouldnt

I'm sorry of course you know me more than me...

In other words, stats arent the be all and end all of arguements.

It's the closest thing we have.

[Matthew]

But if there are other factors in the arguement, they shouldnt be dismissed simple becuase they dont compliment what the stats say.

[kevC]

What other factors?