Nash is no MVP

[Ripper]

The Nash bandwagon is really getting out of control. Everybody seems to be crowning him MVP. I say he is severly overrated. And it's becoming more annoying as the Nash MVP chants grow intenser.

Why is he MVP? So he plays like a true point guard people keep saying. Isn't that what a point guard is supposed to do? Why is that so special?Why have we to got shower him with respect because he plays his position like a point guard should?

So the Suns have an amazing first half of the season. And yes when Nash got down losses kept piling. That's because they haven't got anybody halfdecent to back him up! Because they almost entirely play their starting five 40 minutes a game. When one falls down there is going to be huge deficit, especially if it's their ballhandler. Ofcourse they start losing. Yet many people see it as proof that Nash of MVP-greatness and the suns are shit without him. Those other four starters are pretty damn goodl, they have maybe the best starting line up in the league. Having those players, playing that uptempo style is a feast for any point guard.
Yet time and time again people are amazed he can hit the open man. It's not rocket science you know. He's not doing anything superhuman.

It's been a while since any guard has averaged that many assists per game. But the players who did that before him were better, like Jason Kidd on his peak and John Stockton, who earlier in his career put up more then 14 dimes a game, playing with lesser players (now that's playmaking). Earlier this season Brevin Knight was averaging 10 assists per game, hardly anybody mentions him.

All Nash has to do is worry about pushing the ball and finding the open man, the players around are completely suited to his style of play, he doesn't even have to worry about defense. He's got deadly three point shooters (JJ and Q), and awesome inside presence (Stoudemire), not to mention underrated Shawn Marion. The whole team likes to run. Nash just simply doesn't impress me as much as he does everybody else.

Come playoff time the Suns-opponents are going to exploit Nash's poor defending and his injury proneness. And they are going to pay for their lack of bench quality. Nash has been burning out before the playoffs even start the past few years, and at this rate, playing so many minutes a game, chances are he'll burn out early again. And when the playoffs are over, who cares what season record they have. If they haven't achieved in the playoffs, they have done jack shit.

In my book, MVP candidates should put up superhuman perfomances and they have to be invaluable to their team. Garnett puts up absolutely crazy numbers, ridiculous stats. Team chemistry and a lack of desire is killing his team, but he's the heart and soul of that team and he carry's them like no one can. Tim Duncan is simply astounding, he doesn't even have to play 40 minutes for his team to perform well. Now that's brilliant, he can sort of ride through the season so he starts the playoffs fresher and healthier. How many players as important as him can do that? (that's right, none). Lebron James is simply incredible. He's constantly improving, puts up spectacular numbers, and he's made giant leaps compared to last season. He is superhuman and just in his second year.
Those players are ways ahead of Nash in my opinion, as far as MVP's go.

Nash: immensely overrated. You've got to agree.





78 78 37.4 .514 .416 .819 .70 1.90 2.60 14.5 2.65 .23 3.49 3.00 17.2

[Matt]

Most Valuable Player.......maybe he won't win it but he's a top 5 candidate.....Suns were 0-6 w/o him and what, 31-4 with him....they were winning 80%+ of their games with him....if that's not MVP worthy I don't know what is.....sure, he doesn't play defense but at the end of the day the 'W' column is more important

All Nash has to do is worry about pushing the ball and finding the open man

you make that sound so simple....and yet maybe only Jason Kidd can do that better than Nash. Barbosa didn't even accomplish the simple task of 'pushing the ball' and 'finding the open man'

[J@3]

Put Jason Kidd on that exact same Phoenix team (when he's healthy) and they'd have a better record than they currently do... put any form of PG who likes to push the ball and can pass well, and they'd have a similar record. I don't think Nash should be MVP either, people tend to ignore the improvement of Stoudemire and the addition of Richardson and just think everything going well for the Suns is because of Steve Nash.

Btw, before anyone puts Stoudemire's improvement down to Nash... look at the jump from his rookie to soph years, then compare the jump from his soph year to now.

[Matt]

If Phoenix finish #1 i don't see why not he can't be MVP

[J@3]

Precedent I suppose, wasn't Kidd in the same situation with New Jersey a few years back?

[The GOAT]

I think he is MVP material easily.

[J@3]

There's no doubt he's MVP material, but so are 5 or 6 other players at the moment... the main difference is that they don't rely on everyone else around them as much to make them look this good.

[The GOAT]

I agree with that, but saying he is no MVP is bullshit in my opinion.
BTW Jae you have 3000 posts congrats

[J@3]

BTW Jae you have 300 posts congrats

Lol I wish, if I had 300 that'd mean I had other things to do during the day

Thanks though, I'll do a shout out thread for my 5,000th... which'll be sometime next month I guess.

[Matt]

the main difference is that they don't rely on everyone else around them as much to make them look this good.

works both ways......Nash makes them look good to by setting them up with easy chances

[cklitsie]

I would say Nash isn't MVP either, but who deserves it more? Maybe only LeBron, but if you're talking about bandwagoning... pff, even David Stern is a Cavs fan now...

[air gordon]

i don't think nash is the hands down mvp. definitely should be in consideration for it though

Come playoff time the Suns-opponents are going to exploit Nash's poor defending and his injury proneness.

what do you mean by this? pull a nancy kerrigan on him?

Earlier this season Brevin Knight was averaging 10 assists per game, hardly anybody mentions him.

because the bobcats are 22 games under .500

Tim Duncan is simply astounding, he doesn't even have to play 40 minutes for his team to perform well. Now that's brilliant, he can sort of ride through the season so he starts the playoffs fresher and healthier

not to take away from duncan's accomplishments, i just think his minutes going down is more of an indication of how good that spurs team is.

put any form of PG who likes to push the ball and can pass well, and they'd have a similar record...people tend to ignore the improvement of Stoudemire and the addition of Richardson

you could say the same thing about Richardson. it doesn't seem that difficult to to sit around on the perimeter/jacking up a bunch of 3's without the coach getting mad

but i'm not so sure about nash. would the suns be a great team still if say, chris duhon was the pg? he fits the push the ball/pass well mold quite well. he's even a better defender then nash. or eric snow?? maybe the bulls would have been just as successful if dominique wilkins was at the helm instead of jordan?
seriously, because he does his job well and makes it look easy, maybe in a way nash is underrated? it's easy to point out another player could be doing same thing he does

[fgrep15]

The Suns would be a top 5 Western team with a good playmaking PG, they wouldn't be as good unless they had a Jason Kidd, Mike Bibby, Tinsley, Kirk Hinrich or someone like that who was also a top 15 or so PG [that isn't Francis, Marbury etc], then they would be as good and capable of being better.

Nash is an MVP candidate, you can't deny that, just because he was what the team needed, he gets candidate, but he's not MVP, you can't be an MVP for only playing on one side of the court. Also too many people ignore the whole of last season, normally the people that don't agree that he's MVP are people that actually saw the Suns last season. Amare was a 24-10 player, Marion isn't better, Joe Johnson went and worked on his shots in the off-season, and Q-Rich is still the same player.

He didn't make any of the guys better, but he was the other missing piece the team needed which was no injuries, and an actual PG.

[Riot]

I still think this is a big man's league and I feel the Most Valuable Player should be such. The only guards I even consider as MVP canidates are Lebron and Nash. Garnett, Duncan and O'Neal (Shaq) all make their teammates better, Nash doesn't. Like someone said on the boards (I forgot who ) said Nash is great at 50% of the game but the other 50% he sucks. How can an MVP be a liability on half of the game? It doesn't make sense.

Duncan and Garnett are great defensive players as well as great leaders, hard workers, great offensive threats and they rebound the basketball. Not to mention they are two of the better passing big men in the league today. Those are the things I look for in an MVP. And Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and Shaquille O'Neal are those players. Hell, you could put Lebron James in that sentence too but I think Duncan, Garnett and O'Neal are the better players right now.

[Username123]

Just because he is Canadian u dont have to hate Nash. Think about it Nash came to Phoneix and there record improved from last year, he was injured Suns lost all there games when he is back they win. But i also think he is not MVP stuff... if you want a MVP then Lebron or KG

[Amphatoast]

why people saying switch nash with anther point guard.
that's stupid
might as well switch KG and Tim Duncan too if you want to do that.

I don't see why everyone hates Nash
His team is winning
If they win the west he should be considered. Don't you get tired of every year KG and Tim Duncan? His assist numbers are really nice, so is brevin knight, but they 22 games under .500.
Who cares how much minutes nash plays. Thats how they run they squad. Without him, they suck. With him, they CONTENDERS. Its not fair to say 'if jason kidd or brevin knight was in phenoix they would be the same' because then you can say 'if kg switched with duncan those teams would be the same' which people don't say.

[j.23]

So the Suns have an amazing first half of the season. And yes when Nash got down losses kept piling.

In my book, MVP candidates should put up superhuman perfomances and they have to be invaluable to their team

good sir, you just contradicted yourself

i can't see any reason why steve nash shouldn't be considered MVP. remember in the 2001-2002 season when jason kidd got signed by the nets and turned that shithole into a title contender? i didn't see anyone complaining about him being an MVP candidate; yet, we almost have the identical situation going on in phoenix

[LouisvilleLip]

Difference is Kidd was the best player on his team, best pg in the nba at the time and he was arguably the best defensive pg in the nba at the time. Plus his stats were a lil better, a couple fewer assists than Nash but he averaged 3-4 more points and he grabs 6 rpg.

[Ripper]

So the Suns have an amazing first half of the season. And yes when Nash got down losses kept piling.

In my book, MVP candidates should put up superhuman perfomances and they have to be invaluable to their team

good sir, you just contradicted yourself

i can't see any reason why steve nash shouldn't be considered MVP. remember in the 2001-2002 season when jason kidd got signed by the nets and turned that shithole into a title contender? i didn't see anyone complaining about him being an MVP candidate; yet, we almost have the identical situation going on in phoenix

You are comparing the Kidd's Nets to these Suns. He doesn't compare with kid, and the teams don't compare either. Kidd had less talent around him. Martin was the next best player on that team and he's now way near as good as Stoudemire is now. Then there was Van Horn (underachieving playoffchoker) and Richard Jefferson (still developing at the time). The Nets got to the finals, and they could run AND play defense. The Suns just run and shoot three's.

Just take a look at the efficiency ratings of Nba.com

1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 43 33.42
2. Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks) 40 28.48
3. LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers) 41 28.41
4. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) 45 26.47
5. Amare Stoudemire (Phoenix Suns) 45 26.40
6. Shawn Marion (Phoenix Suns) 45 25.78
7. Shaquille O'Neal (Miami Heat) 44 24.80
8. Chris Webber (Sacramento Kings) 38 23.89
9. Kobe Bryant (Los Angeles Lakers) 34 23.85
10. Dwyane Wade (Miami Heat) 41 23.73
11. Tracy McGrady (Houston Rockets) 41 23.63
12. Elton Brand (Los Angeles Clippers) 42 23.17
13. Allen Iverson (Philadelphia 76ers) 38 22.87
14. Brad Miller (Sacramento Kings) 42 22.69
15. Larry Hughes (Washington Wizards) 34 22.15
16. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) 43 22.02
17. Steve Nash (Phoenix Suns) 42 21.98

Nash ranks 17th, whereas the other MVP candidates, Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron and Nowitzky rank in the top 7. His teammates Stoudemire and Marion rank 5 and 6, which is amazing. And you can't fully credit their tremendous production due to Nash. Well maybe you can, since they have to work harder on the defensive end because Nash is a defensive liability.

He basicly plays with better players. Do you honestly think he's playing better then the past few years, that somehow he is a better player? Nope, he's just playing in an ideal situation for him. When people say he makes the other players better, is that really true? Then explain why Nowitzky is excelling in his absence? Maybe it's not Nash that is making the players around him better, but the players around him are making him look even better then he really is? If Stoudemire or Marion gets injured, they are going to pile up losses just like when Nash was out.

Nash excels in one department. An MVP excels in all departments. Is just that his style of play is refreshing, as there aren't many pure point guards around, the Kidd's and Paytons are growing old fast. Because his passing and the way he runs the offense is so compelling to people, people are favoring him at the moment.

The other MVP candidates help their team in all areas. They put up better numbers and they are going to rise to the occasion during the playoffs. Nash has the odds stacked against him, because he's going to be even more of a liability in the playoffs, where injuries, durability, defense and great perfomances determine the outcome. Garnett, Duncan and James don't even have any real weaknesses, and they are slated to save their best for the playoffs. That's why Nash should never go ahead of those three.

ps. I'm 1/8th canadian, so I don't exactly hold a grudge towards canadians.

[Riot]

So the Suns have an amazing first half of the season. And yes when Nash got down losses kept piling.

In my book, MVP candidates should put up superhuman perfomances and they have to be invaluable to their team

good sir, you just contradicted yourself

i can't see any reason why steve nash shouldn't be considered MVP. remember in the 2001-2002 season when jason kidd got signed by the nets and turned that shithole into a title contender? i didn't see anyone complaining about him being an MVP candidate; yet, we almost have the identical situation going on in phoenix

You are comparing the Kidd's Nets to these Suns. He doesn't compare with kid, and the teams don't compare either. Kidd had less talent around him. Martin was the next best player on that team and he's now way near as good as Stoudemire is now. Then there was Van Horn (underachieving playoffchoker) and Richard Jefferson (still developing at the time). The Nets got to the finals, and they could run AND play defense. The Suns just run and shoot three's.

Just take a look at the efficiency ratings of Nba.com

1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 43 33.42
2. Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks) 40 28.48
3. LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers) 41 28.41
4. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) 45 26.47
5. Amare Stoudemire (Phoenix Suns) 45 26.40
6. Shawn Marion (Phoenix Suns) 45 25.78
7. Shaquille O'Neal (Miami Heat) 44 24.80
8. Chris Webber (Sacramento Kings) 38 23.89
9. Kobe Bryant (Los Angeles Lakers) 34 23.85
10. Dwyane Wade (Miami Heat) 41 23.73
11. Tracy McGrady (Houston Rockets) 41 23.63
12. Elton Brand (Los Angeles Clippers) 42 23.17
13. Allen Iverson (Philadelphia 76ers) 38 22.87
14. Brad Miller (Sacramento Kings) 42 22.69
15. Larry Hughes (Washington Wizards) 34 22.15
16. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) 43 22.02
17. Steve Nash (Phoenix Suns) 42 21.98

Nash ranks 17th, whereas the other MVP candidates, Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron and Nowitzky rank in the top 7. His teammates Stoudemire and Marion rank 5 and 6, which is amazing. And you can't fully credit their tremendous production due to Nash. Well maybe you can, since they have to work harder on the defensive end because Nash is a defensive liability.

He basicly plays with better players. Do you honestly think he's playing better then the past few years, that somehow he is a better player? Nope, he's just playing in an ideal situation for him. When people say he makes the other players better, is that really true? Then explain why Nowitzky is excelling in his absence? Maybe it's not Nash that is making the players around him better, but the players around him are making him look even better then he really is? If Stoudemire or Marion gets injured, they are going to pile up losses just like when Nash was out.

Nash excels in one department. An MVP excels in all departments. Is just that his style of play is refreshing, as there aren't many pure point guards around, the Kidd's and Paytons are growing old fast. Because his passing and the way he runs the offense is so compelling to people, people are favoring him at the moment.

The other MVP candidates help their team in all areas. They put up better numbers and they are going to rise to the occasion during the playoffs. Nash has the odds stacked against him, because he's going to be even more of a liability in the playoffs, where injuries, durability, defense and great perfomances determine the outcome. Garnett, Duncan and James don't even have any real weaknesses, and they are slated to save their best for the playoffs. That's why Nash should never go ahead of those three.

ps. I'm 1/8th canadian, so I don't exactly hold a grudge towards canadians.

That was a great post. I agree with pretty much everything you said in that post. Great job Ripper.

[cyanide]

I'd give it to either Duncan or James. Not KG, though, even though he's putting up MVP numbers, his team isn't exactly right up there in the standings.

I think Nash is getting a lot of credit because of his ability to make his teammates better and the record speaks for itself. MVP stands for "most valuable player," not "player who has the most points/rebounds/assists"

[j.23]

You are comparing the Kidd's Nets to these Suns. He doesn't compare with kid, and the teams don't compare either. Kidd had less talent around him. Martin was the next best player on that team and he's now way near as good as Stoudemire is now. Then there was Van Horn (underachieving playoffchoker) and Richard Jefferson (still developing at the time). The Nets got to the finals, and they could run AND play defense. The Suns just run and shoot three's.

im not comparing the nets and suns from one another, im simply stating the impact that these two players had (or have) on their respective franchises. i agree with you definitely, phoenix and nash aren't the detroit pistons and bruce bowen's of the nba but just because he's not a good defensive player does not mean he doesn't deserve the award. if we're talking about weaknesses here then i guess you can also say:

- shaq did not deserve to win the mvp a couple years ago because he can't nail a free throw if his life depended on it
- iverson should not have gotten mvp because he was a turnover prone machine

Nash ranks 17th, whereas the other MVP candidates, Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron and Nowitzky rank in the top 7. His teammates Stoudemire and Marion rank 5 and 6, which is amazing. And you can't fully credit their tremendous production due to Nash.

efficiency points are nice, but do garnett, duncan, shaq, lebron and nowitzki own the best record in the league? when everything is said and done the only thing that matters is a W, and that's what nash has provided them ever since he joined the team. btw the suns lost 5 in a row without nash in the lineup, i think that speaks volumes when it comes to how important he is to the team.

Well maybe you can, since they have to work harder on the defensive end because Nash is a defensive liability.

no argument there, but he also makes it a hell lot easier for them on the offensive end eh? no one on the starting line up is averaging less than 15 ppg.. i didn't see this kind of production when stephon marbury was around (not knocking on marbury)

He basicly plays with better players. Do you honestly think he's playing better then the past few years, that somehow he is a better player? Nope, he's just playing in an ideal situation for him. When people say he makes the other players better, is that really true?

yes, he does make people around him better. i hate using stats to my defense but here we go:

amare stoudemire 03-04 season: 20.6 ppg, 48% shooting
amare stoudemire 04-05 season: 26.1 ppg, 57% shooting

^^ a 9% increase in fg% and a 6 point increase in point production.. we've all seen highlight reels with nash and amare in them, theres no question that nash makes the game so much easier for him.

shawn marion 03-04 season: 19 ppg, 44% shooting, 34% 3pt fg
shawn marion 04-05 season: 19.5 ppg, 47% shooting, 35% 3pt

not a significant increase, but the numbers still have gone up. he's also putting up career numbers in rebounding

joe johnson 03-04 season: 16 ppg, 43% fg, 30% 3pt fg
joe johnson 04-05 season: 15.9 ppg, 44% fg, 46% 3pt fg

percentages have gone up, especially from 3 point range. nash's dribble penetration has been the key

q rich: 03-04 season: 17 ppg, 39% fg, 35.2% 3 pt fg
q rich: 04-05 season: 16 ppg, 38% fg, 35.4% 3pt fg

his stats have dropped a little bit but he leads the league in 3 pt field goals made. heck, he made more than he did last season and we're just at the halfway mark of the season.. again, nash's dribble penetration

Then explain why Nowitzky is excelling in his absence?

maybe because nowitzki was an all-star in the first place :s.. i, for one did not doubt nowitzki when nash left dallas; we've all seen him do his shit in the olympics with players with players that aren't even in the nba.

Maybe it's not Nash that is making the players around him better, but the players around him are making him look even better then he really is? If Stoudemire or Marion gets injured, they are going to pile up losses just like when Nash was out.

maybe it's both? stoudemire or marion important pieces of the team just like nash is. that goes along with tony parker/manu ginobili with tim duncan, caron butler/lamar odom with kobe bryant, cassell/sprewell with garnett, gooden/ilgauskas with LBJ and the list goes on. basically, if 2/3 players are down they're pretty much fucked. basketball is a team game, they all make themselves look good.

Nash excels in one department. An MVP excels in all departments. Is just that his style of play is refreshing, as there aren't many pure point guards around, the Kidd's and Paytons are growing old fast. Because his passing and the way he runs the offense is so compelling to people, people are favoring him at the moment.

i beg to differ, nash excels in more than one department -- scoring, passing, free throws, 3 pt shooting, LEADERSHIP <- something the suns definitely lacked when the marbury trade went down. like i said im not gonna argue with you that nash has his flaws on defense but every player and every MVP of the yesteryear has had their flaws as well.

and yes, his style of play kicks ass

The other MVP candidates help their team in all areas.

and nash doesn't? 35-10, you can't argue with that. see point production, field goal percentage as well.

They put up better numbers and they are going to rise to the occasion during the playoffs.

kevin garnett: 23 ppg, 14 rpg, 6 apg - twolves record: 24-19
nash: 15 ppg, 3 rpg, 11 apg - suns: 35-10

i don't know about you but i would take the 35-10 team record over the 23/14/6 and 24-19 anyday.

Nash has the odds stacked against him, because he's going to be even more of a liability in the playoffs, where injuries, durability, defense and great perfomances determine the outcome. Garnett, Duncan and James don't even have any real weaknesses, and they are slated to save their best for the playoffs. That's why Nash should never go ahead of those three.

last time i checked garnett, duncan, james are not superheroes, so just like nash they are also going to be liability in the playoffs. i've seen nash played in the playoffs, remember he helped dallas to the western conference finals a couple years ago so i can't see why he can't do the same this year around with a younger and more athletic team. if you're expecting nash to set it on cruise control for the playoffs then sorry buddy you got another thing coming

oh one more thing

35-10.

[Riot]

Easy schedule and the fact is T-Wolves, Rockets, Grizzlies and a lot of teams struggled. Me being a T-Wolves fan I know that the Wolves were going to struggle a little bit (not this much) because everyone was healthy. Last year we never had everyone healthy at one point so everyone had to find their roles over again. It took longer than expected and it took a few lumps and bruises but 5 game winning streak and getting their "swagger" back tells me they are ready to play baskebtall.

[J@3]

amare stoudemire 03-04 season: 20.6 ppg, 48% shooting
amare stoudemire 04-05 season: 26.1 ppg, 57% shooting

I knew this would happen...

amare stoudemire 02-03 season (without Steve Nash): 13.5ppg, 47% shooting
amare stoudemire 03-04 season (without Steve Nash): 20.6ppg, 48% shooting
amare stoudemire 04-05 season (WITH Steve Nash): 26.1 ppg, 57% shooting

So by that it goes like this...

Rookie season to Sophmore Season:

+ 7.1ppg, + 1% shooting

Sophmore Season to This Season (w/ Nash)

+ 5.5ppg, + 9% shooting

So if anything, the only thing that's improved significantly with Nash is his shooting percentage, while his point production hasn't gone up as much as it did in his first year of improvement, once again, without Steve Nash.

[Yessie]

an MVP candinate to me is a player who makes his team better and wins. i dont think alot of PG's could do what nash does. i dont think jason kidd could hold a candle to Nash. Kidd wasnt in phoenix and he was very impresive. Nash is the Mvp cause if hes not there the suns suck.