<<<It's Official>>> Steve Nash is the BES

[fgrep15]

Nash's only problem is defense, he's one of the worst defensive PG's in the league, anyone see the Tony Parker matchup? Tony Parker isn't that great a PG, a lot of people give him more credit that he deserves, but he killed Nash because Nash can't defend at all.

Iverson as the best PG? I don't know how it's possible, he's just embarassing the actual PG numbers, but he's scoring like he's always done, which doesn't give you anymore props as a PG. His scoring isn't efficient either, he has an efficient FG% of 44.8% which is just attrocious for any player shooting/scoring that much.

Now obviously, I'll have the replies of "Oh, his team is so crappy, and their's no other scorers, and they wouldn't win a single game without him, but you're calling him the best PG? The best PG should either be extremely efficient offensively in terms of shooting and passing, or a great passer/distributor and defender, or all [Stockton?]. Iverson is not any of those things, so what's Iverson's claim to being the best PG?

You look at someone like Baron Davis, last year the Hornets second scorer was David Wesley, Jamal Mashburn's career was/is done, may his knees rest in peace. David Wesley was their second scorer [14.0 PPG, 38%FG, 32%3PT], now compare that team to Philly in terms of scoring options. David Wesley and PJ Brown were both assisted on 77%+ of their made FG's, which is sad really especially in Wesley's case [80%]. Jamal Malgoire isn't a relaly good scorer because he has only average post skills, and isn't capable of drawing the double team and creating, he's about on the same level as Nazr. After that the Hornets had George Lynch - Defensive stopper, Stacey Augmon - Defensive stopper, Darell Armstrong - Leader and Baron's partner in crime as a three jacker, Tractor Traylor - He does it all.

Okay, they were basically a worse offensive team than Philly, you say, now way, is that possible? Well, Wesley only played 60 games. Wesley = Kyle Korver, Wesley was assisted on 80% of his makes, while Korver is on 85%

Mark Jackson = Jamal Magloire, Magloire assisted on 62%, while Jackson is on 70%
Kenny Thomas = PJ Brown, Brown assisted on 77%, Kenny Thomas on 73%
Corliss Williamson = DA, Corliss 60%, DA 62%
Iguodala is better than Lynch and Augmon, but those are the only ones left, Iguodala 71%, Lynch 82%
Green = Augmon? Green 47%, Augmon 74%
Salmons = Steve Smith? Salmons 44%, Smith 66%
Dalmbert only has Traylor left, Dalmbert 71%, Traylor 68%

I don't think their's an argument as to which crappy offensive team has better offensive players there, unless Magloire All-Star game performance made anyone thing that's the regular with him.

Now their's Baron who has his idiotic shot jacking, mad love for three point shots, though not as much as Q-Rich, and inability to shoot a decent percentage from the free throw line most of the time.

Baron was in the same situation, he was doubled by select teams, he was the scorer and passer, etc, etc. So we compare the numbers [Baron's numbers this season are the second ones]:

Assists per 48 minutes:
Iverson - 8.2 | Baron - 9.0 - 8.4

Assist to bad pass ratio:
Iverson - 2.9 | Baron - 4.2 - 4.2

Turnovers per 48 minutes
Iverson - 4.9 | Baron - 3.8 [isn't even as high as Iverson's in 41 mins] - 3.0

Efficient FG%
Iverson - 44.8% | Baron - 46.3% - 47.3%

Points per 48
Iverson - 33.3 | Baron - 27.4 - 30.3

Foul Draw%
Iverson - 12.9% | Baron 9.4% - 12%

Steals per 48
Iverson - 2.73 | Baron - 2.82 - 3.0

FG attempts per 48
Iverson - 26.9 | Baron - 25.0 - 25.9

Baron beats Iverson in the comparison last season, and even this season where the next best scorer on the team is Lee Nailon, and they have no players [obviously they suck], so what's the lesson here? Saying Iverson's bad team is why he's production is the way it is is just a bunch of garbage. Look at Antione Walker [not saying he's on the level of these guys], but compare his play on Dallas, a good team, to Atlanta or back in Boston before Pierce and he's exactly the same just with less shots in Dallas.
Look at Stephen Jackson, he was shooting worse in Indiana, look at Bob Sura, he played better in Atlanta than he did in Detroit last season, now obviously these 2 aren't first options, but then that means they should improve even more on a better team with more options.

Put Iverson on the Suns, they aren't nearly as good, why? Iverson isn't a PG, Iverson will look for his own shot 10 times before looking for teammates, Amare wouldn't be averaging the same numbers, he wouldn't be shooting 60%, and the Suns wouldn't be the best team in the league [record wise, San Antonio is still king], their whole offense wouldn't be as efficient.

Now as a player in general, Iverson is better than many of these guys, but as a PG, he doesn't rate on the same level to half of them, and it's not like his big scoring and 7 assists to 4 turnovers is winning games, but it's because he has no help right?

You can say put a healthy Kidd on the Suns, and they'd be just as good or even better, but put Iverson, they'd be worse, Francis they'd be worse, put Marbury or Baron, they'd be good, but worse than they're now. I'd rather have Tinsley on the Suns than all those other guys.


Best PG's?

1) Nash, a healthy Kidd is better because he actually plays defense, and you can't fault his all-round game, but Nash is so efficient offensively that he get's here, and also Marbury not playing defense helps Nash.

2) Marbury, when Kidd get's back in form, he takes this one, his defense is weak because of effort really, but he can pass the ball well even though he can be noted for overdribbling sometimes, but he's also a good scorer, and has improved his offensive efficiency a lot so far this season.

3) Kidd, the injury is the only road block for him, great mix of an all-round game, very good passing, and great defense, if he could only be a more effective half court player and shooter.

4) Mike Bibby, efficient offensive player, and better passer than numbers due to princeton offense, average defender.

5) Allen Iverson, a good scorer and good at getting to the line, though not efficient in his scoring. He dominates the ball, but has a team which is built in a manner that he can. He gambles too much, and hurts the team defense in gambling, and though is good at playing the lanes, is not an especially good man to man defender, but average.

6) Baron Davs, would be at #3 or 4 with Marbury if he hadn't been injured this season, and if the Hornets would win some games, plays very good defense on and off the ball, and is as good a passer as Marbury, his numbers this season have been pretty good too. Needs to learn about driving over shooting three's especially with his slashing ability

7) Gilbert Arenas - Not a "real" PG either, super efficient scorer, reminds me of Bibby with his shooting ability, definately and underatted shooter, can get in the lane at will, and gets to the line well, shares PG duties with Larry Hughes so assist numbers won't impress. Has improve desicion making and cut down on turnovers. Great off the ball defender, but plays weak and lazy man to man defense most of the time.

8) Steve Francis - Dribble, dribble, dribble all day long, pass the ball Francis, he dribbles too much, has weak vision for a PG, makes bad decisions, plays weak defense which I don't understand with his athleticism, and turns it over a lot. He's a good scorer, and all-round player though, but just as a PG he wouldn't even break top 10.

9) Jamaal Tinsley - Good PG, he knows how to run an offense, he plays well defensively, he doesn't have the offense of the other guys, but he can get in the lane, and he can hit the outside shot well now. Is just a great PG all around. He has the problem of trying to be too fancy at times, and makes some questionable decisions though. I'd even put him at 7th ahead of Arenas and Francis.

10) Chauncey Billups - A combo guard, we all know he's not a "real" PG. I hope no one brings up the Finals MVP nonsense, Bibby would've gotten it too, so would any PG who can shoot off the pick and roll. They had to give it to someone, he scored a lot in that series, that doesn't justify being a great PG like some have proposed [not in here, but in general]. Billups is good defensively, and a good offensive player, get's to the line well, and is faily efficient in his scoring. Not the best passer, but can play the drive and dish game well.

11) Kirk Hinrich - Good PG, good athleticism, can shoot the ball well, can score, and is a good passer and defender. He's also still young, and has a lot of promise as a PG, will look for his teammates, and knows how to play well. Has improved his decision making, and cut down on turnovers this year, and is good all around. Takes a lot of three's.

12) Andre Miller - Good defender, good passer, no outside shot, great post up game, scores on a high percentage, and has a good all-round game.

13) Rafer Alston - Very quick and can get down the court in no time, protects the ball well, and limits turnovers. Good passer, and has a good outside shot, but takes a lot of three's. Can get to the basket fairly well, and is an average defender, also gambles too much hurting team D.

14) Tony Parker - Good scorer, not great, above average passer, better than his numbers, but not anything overly special, about a 6.5 assists per game guy. Below average defender, and just okay outside shot, not anything special in the all-round department. Very quick and fast, but not as good a PG as many think he is because of good - great playoff performances, and being on the Spurs.

15) Sam Cassell - Good scorer, known for his mid-range game, can shoot the ball, not a true PG, but can play the role. Not athletic which limits his defense, weak defender. Past his prime, but still one of the most efficient PG's in the league. His numbers aren't too telling considering he's playing 29 minutes a game.

16) Speedy Claxton - Can score fairly well, very good in the mid-range area, and can get to the basket nicely. Is extremely quick and fast, a very good and harrasing defender, and a fairly good passer too. Great assist to turnover ratio. No three point shot.

17) Gary Payton - Can still score, still an okay defender, but not close to what he was before. A good leader, can pass the ball, and he's obviously past his prime, but still capable.

18) Jeff McInnis - Has dropped off in his passing this season, and his turnovers have risen, that is the reason for the low ranking. A measly 7.0 assists per 48 minutes, but he's a good scorer, very good defender, and a good leader. He can hit the mid-range shot well, and outside shot fairly well, and knows how to play.

19) Brevin Knight - Great passer, harrasing defender, and can get under your skin when playing against him. He's also great off the ball and at anticipating, and a great player all together, but is undersized still.


Dwyane Wade is still the PG on the Heat offensively, but I didn't include him, he'd be at numbers 3 for being extremely efficient in his scoring, and having good passing numbers, though not the passer most of the top guys are. Also a good defender, not very good - great like Baron or Kidd, but a good one.

[Matthew]

I'm not going to quote everything you just said, it's too early..

Iverson as the best PG? I don't know how it's possible, he's just embarassing the actual PG numbers, but he's scoring like he's always done, which doesn't give you anymore props as a PG. His scoring isn't efficient either, he has an efficient FG% of 44.8% which is just attrocious for any player shooting/scoring that much.

Man if you say that, how can you justify kidd being up there? And If you're basing it strictly on assists, and not points, where is brevin knight?

Now obviously, I'll have the replies of "Oh, his team is so crappy, and their's no other scorers, and they wouldn't win a single game without him, but you're calling him the best PG? The best PG should either be extremely efficient offensively in terms of shooting and passing, or a great passer/distributor and defender, or all [Stockton?]. Iverson is not any of those things, so what's Iverson's claim to being the best PG?

I'm sick of repeating myself, read my last post. It stats hy I'd take iverson over any other pg in the nba right now, except for maybe Marbury. Both those guys are at the top imo.

You look at someone like Baron Davis, last year the Hornets second scorer was David Wesley, Jamal Mashburn's career was/is done, may his knees rest in peace. David Wesley was their second scorer [14.0 PPG, 38%FG, 32%3PT], now compare that team to Philly in terms of scoring options. David Wesley and PJ Brown were both assisted on 77%+ of their made FG's, which is sad really especially in Wesley's case [80%]. Jamal Malgoire isn't a relaly good scorer because he has only average post skills, and isn't capable of drawing the double team and creating, he's about on the same level as Nazr. After that the Hornets had George Lynch - Defensive stopper, Stacey Augmon - Defensive stopper, Darell Armstrong - Leader and Baron's partner in crime as a three jacker, Tractor Traylor - He does it all.

I thought baron was an awesome player last season, the mvp in my eyes before 2004 hit. I was so impressed I even bought his jersey. However, that was last season. This season (due to injuries to him and around) he simply isnt on the same level..

Mark Jackson = Jamal Magloire, Magloire assisted on 62%, while Jackson is on 70%
Kenny Thomas = PJ Brown, Brown assisted on 77%, Kenny Thomas on 73%
Corliss Williamson = DA, Corliss 60%, DA 62%
Iguodala is better than Lynch and Augmon, but those are the only ones left, Iguodala 71%, Lynch 82%
Green = Augmon? Green 47%, Augmon 74%
Salmons = Steve Smith? Salmons 44%, Smith 66%
Dalmbert only has Traylor left, Dalmbert 71%, Traylor 68%

Those are last seasons numbers. Look at how much kidd had assisted on the nets previous seasons baskets..

Now as a player in general, Iverson is better than many of these guys, but as a PG, he doesn't rate on the same level to half of them, and it's not like his big scoring and 7 assists to 4 turnovers is winning games, but it's because he has no help right?

He is only getting one more turnover a game than nash is... assists can be deceptive, you can throw the best pass in the world, but the guy has to still make the basket.
And yes, Iverson has no conistant help.

Put Iverson on the Suns, they aren't nearly as good, why? Iverson isn't a PG, Iverson will look for his own shot 10 times before looking for teammates, Amare wouldn't be averaging the same numbers, he wouldn't be shooting 60%, and the Suns wouldn't be the best team in the league [record wise, San Antonio is still king], their whole offense wouldn't be as efficient.

That is a load of b.s. How many times have you seen iverson play this season? Every time iverson gets into the lane and the defense collapses on him, he looks to pass it. But alot of the time his teamates are in bad positions, or dont finish that play. Then when philly is down by 10 or so is when iverson looks to take over. Its not like when his teammates are on a roll, and the offense is clicking iverson starts thinking "oh shit, i need to score the next 10 for my ego" and starts taking on the defense, 1 on 3 style. He isnt like that at all... and if you watched how he has played this season you'd have to agree.

Allen Iverson, a good scorer and good at getting to the line, though not efficient in his scoring. He dominates the ball, but has a team which is built in a manner that he can. He gambles too much, and hurts the team defense in gambling, and though is good at playing the lanes, is not an especially good man to man defender, but average.

You watch too much sportscenter...

[Jason Kidd.]

3) Kidd, the injury is the only road block for him, great mix of an all-round game, very good passing, and great defense, if he could only be a more effective half court player and shooter.

EDIT:
1) Kidd, the injury is the only road block for him, great mix of an all-round game, very good passing, and great defense, only little weakness is shooting.

[fgrep15]

Man if you say that, how can you justify kidd being up there? And If you're basing it strictly on assists, and not points, where is brevin knight?

Never said I was basing it strictly on assists, unless someone like Bibby or Steve Francis wouldn't even be there. I don't know about Brevin, but I can see Brevin Knight there, who said I was basing it on that, I said to be the #1 PG you have to be extremely efficient offensively, that doesn't say, you must score under 20 PPG, and you have to be a great distributor and passer, and defender, still doesn't say scoring is undermined. Obviously if he had his scoring, shooting 46% and 35% and was averaging 11 assists and 3 turnovers their'd be no question.

Kidd - Great defender, great distributor and passer, as crappy as he's shooting, he's been more efficient from the field than Iverson. 45.3%

I thought baron was an awesome player last season, the mvp in my eyes before 2004 hit. I was so impressed I even bought his jersey. However, that was last season. This season (due to injuries to him and around) he simply isnt on the same level..

Yes I'm a big fan of Baron, and I agree, he was a second tier MVP candidate if he could've stayed healthy, the Hornets were a .540 ball club with him in the lineup, and that's including the games he played injured.

He's not digressed much really, at the beginning of the season he was tearing it up on both ends, but the team broke down, and his minutes have been lessened because of injury, while he's been coming off the bench for a few games too.

Those are last seasons numbers. Look at how much kidd had assisted on the nets previous seasons baskets..

I'm not following you here, those are the numbers this season in Philly in comparison to the Hornets players because Iverson this season is in the same situation [been his whole career basically] that Baron was last season, what does Kidd have to do with this?

He is only getting one more turnover a game than nash is... assists can be deceptive, you can throw the best pass in the world, but the guy has to still make the basket.
And yes, Iverson has no conistant help.

One more turnover a game is a lot, especially considering the difference in assists.

If you throw the best pass in the world, unless the guy's name is Robert Archibald, they'll make the shot because it's the best pass so it should lead them right to a layup. Now if Philly was full of stiffs, I'd say yes we'll excuse him, but the team has finishers. Obviously Nash will have the assists advantage due to his team, but he's also playing about 10 less minutes a game. Nash is a better passer and PG than Iverson, it's not really questionable, Iverson is the better player, I'd never build a team around Nash, but Nash is the better PG.

That is a load of b.s. How many times have you seen iverson play this season? Every time iverson gets into the lane and the defense collapses on him, he looks to pass it. But alot of the time his teamates are in bad positions, or dont finish that play. Then when philly is down by 10 or so is when iverson looks to take over. Its not like when his teammates are on a roll, and the offense is clicking iverson starts thinking "oh shit, i need to score the next 10 for my ego" and starts taking on the defense, 1 on 3 style. He isnt like that at all... and if you watched how he has played this season you'd have to agree.

I've seen Iverson play in about 7 full games this season, and parts of about half of the other games Philly has played, because I have many games on and I'm not going to focus on watching Philly play

Again, I never said he was, I should have noted it, but I was overexaggerating on the he'll look for his shot 10 times thing, but putting Iverson on the Suns won't make them as good because he's not the same type of player, and Iverson doesn't have the same mentality as a Nash or Kidd. His shots will go down, but you won't see a drasitcal increase in assists, and you won't see a drastical increase in offensive efficiency.

I'll bring in something like the All-Star game which really means nothing in comparison, but in there he takes 21 shots per 40 minutes, now it's the All-Star game where no one plays defense till the 4th Quarter, and the pace is fast, but that's a lot. He even averages 5.8 turnovers per 40 in the All-Star game, but everyone is trying to make fancy passes, or maybe it's the double teams.

You watch too much sportscenter...

I've actually never watched Sporstcenter before....I'm not joking either, I haven't watched it except for in ESPN NFL 2K5.

Iverson is not bad, but Iverson is not an efficient player, he's not a great decision maker at the PG, and he's not a real PG, he wasn't playing SG all these other years because Eric Snow was there, he was playing it because that's what fits his game.

[Eugene]

Here are some players worth keeping an eye on, even though they're not quite there yet...

Luke Ridnour: I seen him play last night, and I gotta tell ya, quick as all hell, great court vision, great ball handler. Last night he got three assists in a row. And not just swing the ball for three neither, these were legitimate how-did-he-see-him kind of passes. Pretty good shooter. Couldn't guard his baby sister, though.

Chris Duhon: He's leading all rookies in assists, and frankly, it's not even close. He's getting 4.5, the next closest is like 2.1. His assist-to-turnover ratio is impressive, too, although I can't remember it just now. The thing is, he's playing the same way now as he did in college. People forget that he was one of the top point guard prospects when he was a freshman. He's a pure point. If he keeps progressing, he'll be at least as good as Terrell Brandon was, and maybe is as good as Kevin Johnson was. Oh, and he was one of the best defensive point guards in college. People forget that, too.

Andre Barrett: I've said this before: he should be starting for the Rockets. It's not even close. He's the only pure point and he's the best on that team in getting other people shots. He pushes the ball relentlessly, has a wonderful drive and dish game, and a pretty good shooter to boot. Could be as good as Damon Stoudamire one day.

That's it for now. I've heard wonderful things about Shaun Livingston, and I hope he does become a great player, but I haven't personally seen him, so I can't comment. Likewise for Devin Harris, but here's the thing with Harris--would you really bet on a guy who roomed with two girls in college and liked watching The Bachelor? Really? Jameer Nelson? He was college player of the year, and that means something. But he can't get the burn behind Steve Francis. He was more of a scoring point anyway. The one I like is Delonte West. Heady, smart player. Just knows how to play. Has pretty good size, too, at 6'3".

All the best,

Eugene

[J@3]

The things I've heard about Shaun Livingston, is it's kind of like a "see it to believe it" situation. The things he does won't necessarily end up on the stat sheet, but it's just there for all to see. That being said, I haven't seen him play either

[fgrep15]

The things I've heard about Shaun Livingston, is it's kind of like a "see it to believe it" situation. The things he does won't necessarily end up on the stat sheet, but it's just there for all to see. That being said, I haven't seen him play either

Oh man, the kid is sick, his stats are nothing to rave about, but the thing that impressed me the most if his man to man defense, I've never seen an 18 year old Rookie play defense like that. You see flashes every game, he doesn't know how to run the offense yet, but his vision and passing skill are just amazing.

Right now he needs experience, to work on his shots, and to strengthen himself, and he can be pretty sick.

I have a few Clipper games on my computer, I could make .gifs, but you guys won't be able to see him for a while with the injury and all.

Luke Ridnour: I seen him play last night, and I gotta tell ya, quick as all hell, great court vision, great ball handler. Last night he got three assists in a row. And not just swing the ball for three neither, these were legitimate how-did-he-see-him kind of passes. Pretty good shooter. Couldn't guard his baby sister, though.

Were those the assists to Potapenko, I saw those, he's got some nice skills in the open floor. Arenas was killing him though, but you can't blame him, he had no chance with Arenas being stronger, quicker, and able to get in the lane as good as any other PG in the league.

I like Ridnour though, good player. Duhon's ball handling is a little weak right now [in the PG sense], I was watching some games, and if you pressure him, he stuggles at bringing the ball up, and sometimes commits turnovers. He reminded me a little of Barbosa on the Suns, as soon as Nash comes out of the game, almost every team sets up a full court press to harass Barbosa, poor guy.

[J@3]

I have a few Clipper games on my computer, I could make .gifs, but you guys won't be able to see him for a while with the injury and all.

That'd be cool, we're not exactly the basketball coverage mecca here in Australia. I like the sounds of him though, and it's great he can play D aswell because he's pretty bloody tall for a PG.