Cavs' starting five

Tim Barnes better than Lebron James. Let's not get ridiculous. Is your friend a 17-year-old...6'8" 240 pound man-child with a 40-inch vertical leap...great passing ability...a nice crossover AND a fadeaway jumper?

Tim Barnes is better than Jamaal Tinsley was in college, Tinsley just played on a team with heart...Barnes actually has a jumpshot, plus the passing ability and ball handling of Tinsley. Barnes is a 20 year old starter for ISU...

...and James is an overhyped phenom still in high school who has been told he's the best player ever and is probably believing it at this point in time. He hasn't proven anything. Everyone is setting him up for failure if he doesn't live up to the hype surrounding him. Oh, Barnes is like 6'2 and 170 lbs with great passing ability, a great cross-over and a smooth jumpshot. And he plays defense.

Until James proves something in the NBA, he's nothing more to me than a more athletic Kwame Brown.

ehahs: don't be putting down my man, brunson, just yet. his performance in the past 2 games have been pretty solid, especially when you consider these are his first 2 games of the season

LeBron isn't 240 either.. I've heard his weight go down for a while now, He's 220 now? or 215?

ehahs: don't be putting down my man, brunson, just yet. his performance in the past 2 games have been pretty solid, especially when you consider these are his first 2 games of the season

Well, his performance is extremely surprising. I mean, he was on the IR in NY for what, three years? Then he was on the IR in Portland, and then the IR in Chicago until he was activiated. *shrug* I should have said Eric Montross...

Depends what you want from your point guard. If it includes shooting 20 shots and only getting a couple of assists then fine. But I seriously don't think the Cavs need that. They really need to get Dre back. I know they are trying to have a losing year, but that trade was just crazy. Miller was the teams leader and is going to be one of the best point guards ever. He should have definately been in their future plans.

Dajaun Wagner - 21.95 point guard rating
Smush Parker - 16.35
Bimbo Coles - 15.56
Milt Palacio - 13.24

Where have I hyped him as a great passer? All I have been saying the whole thread is the Cavs have noone who can distribute the ball. Maybe when Bimbo Coles gets back he can bring some veteran leadership into the lineup.

And all you've been saying the entire thread is wrong! Davis and Wagner can both distribute! When Coles gets back he will continue to suck, and wrongly take time from Wagner.

Yes they do. They need someone to get the shooters the ball. They already have 3 guys who don't hesitate to shot and a big man who doesn't get half the touches he deserves, then if they get lucky in the draft and get LeBron you have another scorer who wants the ball.

They already have players to get the scorers the ball, the scorers. They don't need a "true" point guard, they just need to run things Kings style and they'll be fine.

I've heard he has quite a good 18 foot jumper and fadeaway.

He should use it in games then.

Right, that's what all this hype is about.

It's part of it, the rest of the hype is poor judging of talent levels.

So he got a bit excited with the cameras around. He was throwing up crazy shots.

You saw the game? I don't see how he can get a bit excited with cameras around, when they are at his every game, and he's been blitzed by the Media for over a year now.

I still think he has the ballhandling skills to play point-forward. If he adds some muscle he could play power forward if you want to run a smaller, quicker lineup.

Point-forward is not Point Guard. He doesn't have the post game to play Power Forward.

I'll take your word for it.

Good, you're finally accepting facts.

I knew this had to be MJ's fault somehow. LeBron is being labelled as the "Next Jordan" as old as it is, and you have found a new person to hate on.

How childish of you. Dropping to the ignorant and immature level that is "hater-calling". I do not hate Michael Jordan. I do not hate LeBron James.

The fact is, though you often ignore them, Michael Jordan is at fault. I'd explain it to you, but you'd probably just call me a hater for distributing facts and it'd fly right over your head. If you need another hint: Nike.

Tim Barnes is better than Jamaal Tinsley was in college, Tinsley just played on a team with heart...Barnes actually has a jumpshot, plus the passing ability and ball handling of Tinsley. Barnes is a 20 year old starter for ISU...

So Tim Barnes is better than Jamaal Tinsley was in college? So he'll be an NBA starter?

...and James is an overhyped phenom still in high school who has been told he's the best player ever and is probably believing it at this point in time. He hasn't proven anything.

He's proven that he's a major NBA prospect with limitless athletic talent and more skill than Kobe and T-Mac at the same age. That's all he has to prove for people to be excited...

Everyone is setting him up for failure if he doesn't live up to the hype surrounding him. Oh, Barnes is like 6'2 and 170 lbs with great passing ability, a great cross-over and a smooth jumpshot. And he plays defense.

From what I see Barnes is listed as 6'0" 165 which means he's most likely even smaller than that. Barnes is also three years older than James...8 inches shorter and roughly 60 pounds lighter. Tim is also averaging 9 points and 6 assists. Meanwhile the kid who was second to Lebron in high school is putting up 24 and 10 for Syracuse while being 2 years younger...

Dajaun Wagner - 21.95 point guard rating
Smush Parker - 16.35
Bimbo Coles - 15.56
Milt Palacio - 13.24

That's all well and good...but Dajuan is a scorer. Trying to make him a set-up man is wasting his talent and will ultimately hurt his development.

Davis and Wagner can both distribute!

Did you just imply that Ricky Davis is the answer to the Cav's woes at point guard?

They don't need a "true" point guard, they just need to run things Kings style and they'll be fine.

As soon as they find someone to dominate under the basket Webber-style and someone to shoot the lights out Peja style...a center who can pass his ass off Vlade style...and a coach who understands the game Adelman style. The Kings are a team of passers, post-up men and shooters...the Cavs are a team of athletic slashers with no D and Ilgauskas...please explain how they can run an offense like the Kings?

It's part of it, the rest of the hype is poor judging of talent levels.

There's a reason NBA scouts have a job as scouts...

How childish of you. Dropping to the ignorant and immature level that is "hater-calling". I do not hate Michael Jordan. I do not hate LeBron James.

Yes, but you are lightning-fast to dismiss any good comment a person attempts to make about either of them and you seldom have anything complimentary to say about them. It gets tiresome to hear someone constantly criticizing something so you shouldn't be surprised when people get that impression.

The shooters? The only two people that really need to get the ball are Ricky Davis and Ilgauskus. The only reason Miles should be on the floor is for alley-oops, rebounds, and blocks. Wagner could run pick and rolls with Ilgauskus

They may be the only people you think deserve shots, but Wagner is going to want looks and Miles is always shoot first. As much as them giving up their shots would help the team it isn't going to happen.

Wagner could be a great point guard in the mold of Payton, if he wanted...

But that's not his game!! It is not the game he has played his whole life!! He is scorer, not a passer. It's all well and good to stick him at point guard and tell him to pass. But it's not going to work. He is the second coming of Allen Iverson. He wants his shots and he wants plenty. Your not going to turn him into Gary Payton, because he doesn't want to be that sort of player.

*shrug* So do I...and I'm playing against kids that are probably about as good as the kids he's playing against, if not better...

Why aren't all these kids you are playing with not going to be the first pick in the draft then?

Dajaun Wagner - 21.95 point guard rating
Smush Parker - 16.35
Bimbo Coles - 15.56
Milt Palacio - 13.24

And how do they come up with that stupid rating again?

And all you've been saying the entire thread is wrong!

That's right. How can I be right. I forgot you always were.

Davis and Wagner can both distribute!

But do they think shoot first?

They don't need a "true" point guard,

Yes they do.

Good, you're finally accepting facts.

The facts and what you think are two very different things.

I do not hate Michael Jordan. I do not hate LeBron James.

You just rip on them at any chance possible. If that isn't hating, what is it?

That's all well and good...but Dajuan is a scorer. Trying to make him a set-up man is wasting his talent and will ultimately hurt his development.

Exactly what I mean. Where would Allen Iverson be these days if the Sixers forced him to run the point? He sure wouldn't have his MVP's and his chance to play in the Finals. The Sixers had faith in him and let him use his incredible talent. The Cavs have to do that with Wagner, otherwise I'm sure he will find someone who needs a future allstar.

The Kings are a team of passers, post-up men and shooters...the Cavs are a team of athletic slashers with no D and Ilgauskas...please explain how they can run an offense like the Kings?

I was going to comment on that aswell but you put it so well I won't bother.

So Tim Barnes is better than Jamaal Tinsley was in college? So he'll be an NBA starter?

Yes, I believe so. And it's not just because I know him, he's a great guard. 5.9 assists per game is great on a team that has inconsistant scorers, and just 2 tos a game isn't bad, either.

He's proven that he's a major NBA prospect with limitless athletic talent and more skill than Kobe and T-Mac at the same age. That's all he has to prove for people to be excited...

That's great. He's proven he's an NBA prospect. Didn't Kwame Brown do that, too, and get drafted at the number 1 spot? And he's screaming 'bust'...so I'm not convinced of James' talent until he does something in the NBA.

From what I see Barnes is listed as 6'0" 165 which means he's most likely even smaller than that.

Well, I'm 5'10 and he's at least 2 inches taller than me, and that's not counting his hair - so he is 6'0. He's listed at 170, but he said he's closer to 180 now because of weight training, so his measurements are accurate, if not under what he actually is.

Barnes is also three years older than James

Yeah, and he also has a fundamental game.

8 inches shorter and roughly 60 pounds lighter

He's not listed as a forward, now is he? He's a point guard...

Tim is also averaging 9 points and 6 assists

He's also the fourth option on the team behind Jake Sullivan, Adam Haluska, and Jackson Vroman. TJ Ford, one of the premier point guards of college basketball is averaging 14ppg 7.3 apg 40% and 27% 3pt. He has 2 steals per game as well and a 1.9-1 a/to ratio. Tim Barnes is comparable with 9ppg, 5.9 apg 40% shooting, 33% 3pt, 2/1 a/to ratio with just under 1.5 spg. And he plays for ISU, as opposed to the number 4 team in the nation. TJ Ford is a lottery pick, and his stats aren't so much better than Barnes. And Ford is smaller. Oh yeah, remember that in college if you score more than 10 ppg you're usually considered good...

Meanwhile the kid who was second to Lebron in high school is putting up 24 and 10 for Syracuse while being 2 years younger...

He's a forward and the number one option on the team. And it's 22 and 9...he shoots well and does a good job taking care of the ball. Barnes is better than Tinsley was in college...Tinsley was the number two and then number one option on the team and Barnes is the fourth on a relatively young team.

As for me saying Barnes is better than James...well, he is. Barnes is playing against lottery picks such as Kirk Hinrich and TJ Ford, among others, and is putting up comparable stats; James is playing against high schoolers. The talent level that Barnes is playing at is so much higher than that of James'...many of the players he's playing against won't even play in college, let alone the NBA. James DOES have the talent, but the fact is that he hasn't proven anything more than his ability to be a hope for poor teams that he will be the 'next' whatever. With the incompetancy of high school to pro players as of late (save Stoudemire), I HAVE to be pessimistic about such a player.

You are lightning-fast to dismiss any good comment a person attempts to make about either of them and you seldom have anything negative to say about them. It gets tiresome to hear someone constantly praising something so you shouldn't be surprised when people get the impression that the person is nothing more than a sheep.

Last edited by Wall St. Peon on Fri Jan 24, 2003 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Didn't Kwame Brown do that, too, and get drafted at the number 1 spot? And he's screaming 'bust'...

The only thing he is screaming for is minutes. He has played barely 2 years and everyone is on his back. How long did it take TMac to come out of his shell and become the player he is. What about Kobe, he wasn't and instant success. I think Jermaine O'Neal is the perfect example of what is happening to Kwame. He was stuck on a team with a lot of scorers and didn't get any minutes. Kwame hardly gets any looks with Stack, MJ and Hughes there. Plus they would rather start Laettner who gets about the same stats as Kwame in more minutes.

The only thing he is screaming for is minutes. He has played barely 2 years and everyone is on his back. How long did it take TMac to come out of his shell and become the player he is. What about Kobe, he wasn't and instant success. I think Jermaine O'Neal is the perfect example of what is happening to Kwame. He was stuck on a team with a lot of scorers and didn't get any minutes. Kwame hardly gets any looks with Stack, MJ and Hughes there. Plus they would rather start Laettner who gets about the same stats as Kwame in more minutes.

Hey, you just kind of proved my point. Everyone thinks LeBron James will instantly be an impact in the league, but you're saying that he'll take a few years like Kwame Brown - contrary to previous statements. However, Kwame Brown hasn't done anything...he's shown brilliance, but so is Rick Brunson at the moment, and how long has he been in the league? How many busts have their been? Lots of them. And the Wizards are no Portland, so that comparison is pointless. O'neal was buried behind Wallace and Sabonis and Brian Grant...Kwame Brown is buried behind Christian Laetner, Etan Thomas, and Brendan Haywood. Big different in talent? I think so.

I'd still draft James if I were a GM, but I'd be nervous about it because he hasn't played against any sort of real competition and his practice habbits and adjustment to the more physical and ten million times more talented NBA may be rough, not to mention the expectations everyone has for him. With expectations so high, he's destined to fail. Kwame Brown is the perfect example; he was supposed to be the most mature of the high school early entry candidates, and he couldn't do his own shopping for christ's sake.

I might be wrong, but I believe Chris Webber was Drafted by Sac. Kings and didn't want to play there so he was traded to GS.

Report: Source says King James won't play for Cavs
Cleveland, OH (Sports Network) - LeBron James will never play for the Cleveland Cavaliers after the firing of head coach John Lucas on Monday, according to a published report.

The Cleveland Plain Dealer cited a source close to the St. Vincent-St. Mary senior, who indicated that James wanted to play for the Cavaliers because of his relationship with Lucas.

"I tell you what, LeBron will never play for the Cavs after this," the source told the newspaper. "LeBron really likes coach Lucas. He was mad when he heard about it."

James and Lucas became close when the 17-year-old attended a private workout with some of the Cavaliers last summer. The NBA suspended Lucas for two games and fined the team $150,000 for the violation of league rules.

Lucas was replaced by assistant Keith Smart after the Cavaliers got off to a league-worst 8-34 record this season. If Cleveland remains in the NBA's basement, the team would get the best chance of landing the first pick in the lottery for the 2003 NBA Draft.

James, who is expected to be the first overall selection, could avoid playing with the Cavaliers if he does not sign a contract. He would then enter the next year's draft and be able to sign with any team. The threat of not signing could also lead the Cavaliers to make a trade with another team for other picks in the draft.

Oooops,

That's all well and good...but Dajuan is a scorer. Trying to make him a set-up man is wasting his talent and will ultimately hurt his development.

I never said to make him a set-up man.

Did you just imply that Ricky Davis is the answer to the Cav's woes at point guard?

No, I implied nothing. I simply stated that Ricky Davis can distribute the basketball.

please explain how they can run an offense like the Kings?

By having the coach design the offense so they run it that way, and then going out on the floor and running it. I never said it would be successful in making them a good team.

There's a reason NBA scouts have a job as scouts...

And they're never wrong?

Yes, but you are lightning-fast to dismiss any good comment a person attempts to make about either of them and you seldom have anything complimentary to say about them.

No, you're wrong, Ernest. I dismiss anything overblown or incorrect that people attempt to make about anyone that's interesting enough to bother posting about. I have plenty to say complimentary to them, and I have said it, however, everyone else constantly does that and more so why should I spam and say "I agree." constantly?

It gets tiresome to hear someone constantly criticizing something so you shouldn't be surprised when people get that impression.

It also gets tiresome to hear someone constantly overinflating things. And you should also live by your own example before someone gets the impression you're a Ben-hater. (Not that one can exist considering Ben is not a worshipped and overly hyped figure by the media)

But that's not his game!! It is not the game he has played his whole life!! He is scorer, not a passer. It's all well and good to stick him at point guard and tell him to pass. But it's not going to work. He is the second coming of Allen Iverson. He wants his shots and he wants plenty. Your not going to turn him into Gary Payton, because he doesn't want to be that sort of player

Gary Payton didn't want to be that player. Stephon Marbury didn't want to be that player. Michael Jordan, Isiah Thomas, etc. etc.

Why aren't all these kids you are playing with not going to be the first pick in the draft then?

No media hype, no "potential", no fist-banging-against-head-like-a-drunk-monkey-after-dunks...

And how do they come up with that stupid rating again?

So, it's stupid because it disagrees with everything you've said even though it's based in stats.

Code:

PPG*0.875+(SPG-(FPG*.5))+(RPG*.25)+(BPG*.25)+(APG-TPG)*2

Now, since you will complain, I took the liberty of running my own calculations with changes on values and Wagner stays ahead of the pack until you remove points from the final rating (which is a critical point guard stat regardless), and then he's just barely behind Coles. The main effect is a change in Parkers location in the last three spots.

Yes they do.

The Bulls never needed one, the Lackers haven't.

The facts and what you think are two very different things.

I didn't say I thought Lamar Odom was better coming out of HS than James will more than likely be.

You just rip on them at any chance possible. If that isn't hating, what is it?

Hating is when you hate someone. I do not hate either of them. Nor do I "rip" on them at any chance possible. I try to provide more information than the person posting seems to have, I also am being realistic, and criticizing the player as equally as I would anyone but three players. I only hate one player in the NBA, and his name is Chucky Atkins.

Going to have to break this next one up...

The only thing he is screaming for is minutes.

No, he isn't. He isn't screaming for anything, he's just hiding in the corner and hoping he doesn't get the spotlight put on him. And he's getting almost 10 minutes more per game this year.

He has played barely 2 years and everyone is on his back.

He was the number one pick in the NBA Draft. Usually they are expected to be someone who can at least be competent in the league! We were also all told that he was supposed to be like Kevin Garnett. Some even said he should be a legit starting forward by this season.

How long did it take TMac to come out of his shell and become the player he is.

McGrady was much better than Kwame was coming out of High School. Guard is also an eaiser spot to make the transition.

What about Kobe, he wasn't and instant success.

He had Eddie Jones in front of him, and read McGrady.

I think Jermaine O'Neal is the perfect example of what is happening to Kwame. He was stuck on a team with a lot of scorers and didn't get any minutes. Kwame hardly gets any looks with Stack, MJ and Hughes there. Plus they would rather start Laettner who gets about the same stats as Kwame in more minutes.

Jermaine O'Neal is not a perfect example. Jermaine was stuck behind a legit, top of line, frontcourt. Kwame's stuck behind Christian Laettner because he's incredibly inconsistant, doesn't play defense and continues to feel lost and disappear after being criticized or reprimanded.

Kwame is a product of the national AAU, just like Chandler, Curry, Diop, Cooke, Cisse, etc. Most of these guys are in the league for their hype and "potential", not for any current talent. Probably around 25-30 players have entered the draft from High School in the last few years. Three are superstars (KG, Kobe, McGrady), one is an all-star (O'Neal), one is a starter who's pretty good (Lewis), one is slowly breaking in (Harrington) and one's a rookie that's defying all logic (Stoudemire), the rest have bombed out, are hanging around on rookie deals (Diop) or are struggling in the playing time they recieve (Brown, Curry, Chandler, Stevenson, Bender), of course there's always Miles who seems to change every week. There's also tons of High School "gods" who have fizzled when facing the competition of college (many people bring up Lopez, Rush or Johnson), and to even be considered for the NBA Draft, these guys have to have been dominating High School players of LeBron's stature. There's a reason we have to be skeptical and critical of LeBron, Mayo and Marshall, we've seen this all before.

It's all irrelevant since James isn't going to Cleveland anyway.
EDIT:

I might be wrong, but I believe Chris Webber was Drafted by Sac. Kings and didn't want to play there so he was traded to GS.

He was drafted by the Orlando Magic, sent to Golden State because Orlando wasn't sure about him with Shaq. You're thinking Billy Owens.

Oooops,

Exactly...

Last edited by benji on Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

He's also the fourth option on the team behind Jake Sullivan, Adam Haluska, and Jackson Vroman.

So we should chalk up three more guys who are better than Lebron?

That's great. He's proven he's an NBA prospect. Didn't Kwame Brown do that, too, and get drafted at the number 1 spot? And he's screaming 'bust'...so I'm not convinced of James' talent until he does something in the NBA.

Notice that I said "skill" in the paragraph you were replying to? That's the difference. The players who are just big athletic bodies take a longer time to develop. Lebron has that athletic ability with skill...

As for me saying Barnes is better than James...well, he is.

Define "better." Is he a better prospect? Do you think he'll be a better NBA player? Does he play his position better than Lebron plays his? Would he beat him one-on-one? There are so many ways to say "better" that you're not really saying anything until you offer a deeper explanation...

so you shouldn't be surprised when people get the impression that the person is nothing more than a sheep

I never said Ben was a hater but I tried to explain why people think that way. You're getting really childish with your name-calling, Shane. Plus, considering that you follow Ben around and defend everything he says...it's quite ironic that you would call someone else a sheep...

So we should chalk up three more guys who are better than Lebron?

Yeah, they're better. Why? Competition's better, higher level, the other teams play defense, and the Big 12 is arguably the hardest basketball conference in the nation. LeBron James dominates high school players and has the athleticism of an NBA player. How many high school players have had those same things and then gone to the NBA and done jack? Many. Why can't I be skeptical? Because you said so? Why can't I be realistic? Because you said so? Why can't I want polished players in the NBA as opposed to 18 year olds who can't even drink legally (but they do anyway)? Why can't I want players who are drafted because of how good they are as opposed to how good they might be in five years? I'd appreciate it if you would answer all of these questions...since you don't do much of anything.

Notice that I said "skill" in the paragraph you were replying to? That's the difference. The players who are just big athletic bodies take a longer time to develop. Lebron has that athletic ability with skill...

Skill includes basketball IQ and being able to understand and run set plays, playing defense, and having an all-around game as opposed to a player who plays defense when he feels like it and has a mediocre jumpshot. LeBron James has talent, the ability to hone his basketball skills. Shouldn't you know that?

Define "better." Is he a better prospect? Do you think he'll be a better NBA player? Does he play his position better than Lebron plays his? Would he beat him one-on-one? There are so many ways to say "better" that you're not really saying anything until you offer a deeper explanation...

He's a better prospect because the NBA says so, because he has potential. He plays his position better than James plays his; James is concentrating on filling up the box score and getting more people to buy him stuff. James would probably beat him one on one because he has 8 inches and is more athletic. One on one ability doesn't mean too much in the NBA, really...ask the guys at Rucker how far being good at One on One has gotten them. And I did offer an explanation, but you ignored it. Weird...you NEVER ignore legitimate statements people make...

I never said Ben was a hater but I tried to explain why people think that way. You're getting really childish with your name-calling, Shane. Plus, considering that you follow Ben around and defend everything he says...it's quite ironic that you would call someone else a sheep...

My childish name calling? When did I call you names? You didn't quote me fully - again - and in case you didn't notice I changed only a couple words from something you said. It's true, I kind of follow Ben around, but the only reason is because he is the only person on this board who forms his own opinions, as opposed to believing everything the media and popular culture say. I think for myself; just because I have similar opinions as Ben doesn't mean I agree completely with him.

Oh, and I was calling everyone who's jumping on James dick before he's even graduated high school...that's just foolish and absurd. People should think for once.

He was drafted by the Orlando Magic, sent to Golden State because Orlando wasn't sure about him with Shaq. You're thinking Billy Owens.

Thanks, you're right. I figured out that some players don't want to play in some teams and they are traded.

he is the only person on this board who forms his own opinions, as opposed to believing everything the media and popular culture say

Ahhh it hurts....

Gary Payton didn't want to be that player. Stephon Marbury didn't want to be that player. Michael Jordan, Isiah Thomas,

Payton didn't want to be what player? Stephon Marbury didn't want to be what player? What about Jordan and Isiah?

So, it's stupid because it disagrees with everything you've said even though it's based in stats.

A formula can't show you what a player brings to a team or all the little things he does that don't come through in stats.

I didn't say I thought Lamar Odom was better coming out of HS than James will more than likely be.

Yes you did.

He was the number one pick in the NBA Draft.

You will know why in the next year or two.

McGrady was much better than Kwame was coming out of High School. Guard is also an eaiser spot to make the transition.

So doesn't that mean you expect Kwame to take a little longer to reach his potential?

Most of these guys are in the league for their hype and "potential", not for any current talent.

are struggling in the playing time they recieve (Brown, Curry, Chandler, Stevenson, Bender),

There is the reason for these guys not breaking out yet. Brown backs up Laetnner and puts up just a good a line, Curry is playing under 10 minutes a game, Chandler is showing improvement, Stevenson will get some minutes when the geriatrics retire and Bender is stuck behind a stacked Pacers frontline.

Oh, and I was calling everyone who's jumping on James dick before he's even graduated high school...that's just foolish and absurd. People should think for once.

Maybe you should stop jumping on some guys dick that isn't half the player LeBron is and will be. That's just foolish and absurd.

Clin wrote:

The names Clinton. Don't start with you inmature shit like Dan.

Maybe you should stop jumping on some guys dick that isn't half the player LeBron is and will be. That's just foolish and absurd.

You misunderstood my point. James' competition isn't college level; the players I named are in one of the toughest conferences in the nation. How do you know James will be a great player? Are you psychic? My point is that he has not proved anything except that he's athletic and COULD be a great NBA player. He COULD be. I'm not saying that I wouldn't draft him, I'm saying that you guys are assuming that he'll be averaging 25 points 8 rebounds and 5 assists against NBA competition. You seem to expect that whatever team drafts James will be completely turned around. You assume that he'll make an immediate enormous contribution - and this kid hasn't even had his prom yet. Kwame Brown is a bust. If you call old and average Christian Laetner a legitimate person for a second year number 1 pick to be behind, you're wrong. Let's look at past number 1 picks that weren't high schoolers...they started. Olowokandi, Brand, and so on, and they started their rookie year. Brown hardly played because he was a project. The same can be said for James; he has the potential to develop the skills, but right now he's Darius Miles with better ball handling and shooting - nothing more than a freakish athlete.

Payton didn't want to be what player? Stephon Marbury didn't want to be what player? What about Jordan and Isiah?

They all didn't want to be a player who's just a scorer, they all changed their game to be better team players instead of just scorersm and it paid off for every one of them. It would for Wagner too.

I didn't say I thought Lamar Odom was better coming out of HS than James will more than likely be.

Yes you did.

When Lamar Odom came out of High School, he was far more polished and better than LeBron James will be coming out of High School.

No he didn't

He was the number one pick in the NBA Draft.

You will know why in the next year or two.

That still doesn't explain why it's wrong everybody expects something from a number one pick right away.

So doesn't that mean you expect Kwame to take a little longer to reach his potential?

McGrady was the 7th pick.. Kwame the 1st.

Most of these guys are in the league for their hype and "potential", not for any current talent.

are struggling in the playing time they recieve (Brown, Curry, Chandler, Stevenson, Bender),

There is the reason for these guys not breaking out yet. Brown backs up Laetnner and puts up just a good a line, Curry is playing under 10 minutes a game, Chandler is showing improvement, Stevenson will get some minutes when the geriatrics retire and Bender is stuck behind a stacked Pacers frontline.

Brown started at the start of the season, he had his chance, same with Curry, Chandler (who is indeed showing promise), Bender, Stevenson's spot was supposed to be all his but he lost the starting SG to Cheaney??

Oh, and I was calling everyone who's jumping on James dick before he's even graduated high school...that's just foolish and absurd. People should think for once.

Maybe you should stop jumping on some guys dick that isn't half the player LeBron is and will be. That's just foolish and absurd.

Shane wasn't talking about himself...

The names Clinton. Don't start with you inmature shit like Dan.

Thank you... I didn't do that... and you're so mature you can even spell "immature".. thats great.

Arenas was a shooter and has adapted to PG pretty well (and fast) if u ask me. Don't see why a player (in theory) with better skills than him as Wagner couldn't, though its known the great work ethic that Gilbert has.

Yeah, they're better. Why? Competition's better, higher level, the other teams play defense, and the Big 12 is arguably the hardest basketball conference in the nation.

So all three of those players are also significantly better than Carmelo Anthony...since Anthony was slightly worse than James when they played and Anthony plays in a weak conference?

How many high school players have had those same things and then gone to the NBA and done jack?

Hmmmm...Bender...Chandler...Kwame...Cisse and Curry? All of those players except Bender haven't had time to develop either.

Now how many players have went on to become some of the best players in the league? Rashard Lewis, Jermaine O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Tracy McGrady. Given time to develop most of these players become pretty good. Sounds like good odds for Lebron...

Why can't I be skeptical? Because you said so? Why can't I be realistic? Because you said so? Why can't I want polished players in the NBA as opposed to 18 year olds who can't even drink legally (but they do anyway)? Why can't I want players who are drafted because of how good they are as opposed to how good they might be in five years?

I never said you couldn't. It's your prerogative to think and want all of those things. It's also my prerogative to disagree with you. It's no one's prerogative though...to turn things into a petty fight...

I'd appreciate it if you would answer all of these questions...since you don't do much of anything.

(raises eyebrow) Come again?

Skill includes basketball IQ and being able to understand and run set plays, playing defense, and having an all-around game as opposed to a player who plays defense when he feels like it and has a mediocre jumpshot.

Would you like me to find the post I made a couple of weeks ago where I found Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady's scouting report from high school and compared them to Lebron's? Tracy McGrady was listed as an amazing athlete with nice ballhandling...some semblance of a jump shot. He also did not move without the ball...period...played lazy defense and had little basketball IQ. Sound familiar? Kobe had a developing fadeaway jumper...great athleticism...but little ballhandling ability or court awareness. Sound familiar? James is taller and stronger...has that same developing jump shot and ballhandling but gets his teammates involved and has a better understanding of the game. That's why people are excited...he's got more physical ability and is further along the learning curve than Kobe and T-Mac were at the same age...

Weird...you NEVER ignore legitimate statements people make...

Is that sarcastic? I can hardly tell anymore...

I kind of follow Ben around, but the only reason is because he is the only person on this board who forms his own opinions, as opposed to believing everything the media and popular culture say.

Well...Ben apparently thinks GMs should draft Chris Bosh...who is equivalent to a shorter, skinnier Marcus Camby...over Lebron James...who is equivalent to a taller, stronger Kobe. He also thinks the Cleveland Cavaliers...a team of slashing scorers who play no defense...can play a Sacramento Kings style offense. If you want to answer for him then answer for him...don't be lazy and chime in at the end of my reply to him. If you disagree with him about things then let him speak for himself.

Rashard Lewis

rashard lewis = the most over-rated player in the history of all sports

So all three of those players are also significantly better than Carmelo Anthony...since Anthony was slightly worse than James when they played and Anthony plays in a weak conference?

I never said they were better. I'm just saying we can't judge how James will do in the NBA or how he would do in college if he attended. Barnes is the best player on the Cyclones and one of the best passing point guards in the NCAA (just barely out of the top assist men, would be higher if his teammates were more consistant). They're playing at a higher level than James, therefore, LOGICALLY, they are better at the game of basketball than James is; they have the KNOWLEDGE to develop their SKILLS, regardless of talent. LeBron has talent and potential, but he must develop his skills to do anything. Since he has been touted as one of the best players ever before he's accomplished anything, he might not have the work ethic to try to develop those skills. If he wanted to be his best, he'd play defense consistantly. He'd work on his jumpshot, and so on. That being said, James has proved nothing except that he's the best player in high school.

Hmmmm...Bender...Chandler...Kwame...Cisse and Curry? All of those players except Bender haven't had time to develop either.

Yeah, but they were drafted higher than any other high schoolers in history, so they should develop faster, no? Otherwise why would they be drafted in the top five? Just because past players developed in 3 or 4 years doesn't mean that players nowadays will take as long, especially since so much more is expected of them. They are expected to be the next great player; Kobe and McGrady and Garnett were just novelties who turned out great and thus started the high schooler craze. Kobe was behind Eddie Jones, McGrady was benched behind Doug Christie - who's starting on the best team in the NBA right now. The teams that Kwame and Curry and Chandler are on are horrible, and they SHOULD be starting. Christian Laetner? Kwame Brown was the NUMBER 1 pick, I mean, come on...he's not even getting minutes behind a mediocre starter. The same goes for Curry and Chandler, to a point. Their first season is where they learn the game, their second is when they should begin to become the players that they were expected to be.

Now how many players have went on to become some of the best players in the league? Rashard Lewis, Jermaine O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Tracy McGrady. Given time to develop most of these players become pretty good. Sounds like good odds for Lebron...

How many? Three. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Tracy McGrady. Jermaine O'Neal is turning into an exceptional player, and Rashard Lewis thinks he's McGrady and Kobe Bryant. The odds for LeBron are different; he's expected to be as good as McGrady and Kobe. Those two had no great expectations.

I never said you couldn't. It's your prerogative to think and want all of those things. It's also my prerogative to disagree with you. It's no one's prerogative though...to turn things into a petty fight...

A petty fight? What are you talking about? Of course we can disagree; however, I'm disagreeing and making points. You're disagreeing and just telling me I'm wrong and spitting out the same things as everyone else. Think for yourself...

(raises eyebrow) Come again?

OK, this is a question mark: ?
If a sentence ends in one of these, it's a question. If I ask you a question, some sort of response is desired. Normally, when I ask you questions, you ignore them and disagree without saying anything of real use. You didn't answer any of the questions...I was right again.

Would you like me to find the post I made a couple of weeks ago where I found Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady's scouting report from high school and compared them to Lebron's? Tracy McGrady was listed as an amazing athlete with nice ballhandling...some semblance of a jump shot. He also did not move without the ball...period...played lazy defense and had little basketball IQ. Sound familiar?

Of course it sounds familiar...I saw the post and read the scouting report.

James is taller and stronger...

He's an inch taller than Kobe and the same height as McGrady. He's stronger than NBA players? I doubt that...

has that same developing jump shot and ballhandling but gets his teammates involved and has a better understanding of the game. That's why people are excited...he's got more physical ability and is further along the learning curve than Kobe and T-Mac were at the same age...

Where have I disagreed about these things? I just said I'm pessimistic because he hasn't proved anything against players of a higher caliber and he already has an NBA ego without doing a damned thing. I think he's being setup for failure because of the expectations. But since I'm not saying that James is the Cavs or the Raptors or whoever drafts him savior, I'm wrong. Because I think more of college athletes who know the game and are playing against quality competition, I'm wrong...even though that is more logical. I'm not denying James' talent - how many times have I said I'd probably draft him if I were a GM? Yet another thing I've said that you've ignored - I'm just being realistic, something you guys can't seem to even fathom.

Is that sarcastic? I can hardly tell anymore...

Is that an insult? I think it was....so you're saying that all my statements are nothing more than a bunch of smartass comments? Even though there's stats, there's legitimate points, there's many things that support my opinion (which you don't really do much of...you just say everything everyone else is saying and trying to negate my opinion with no real argument)...but you ignore them. I make one sarcastic statement and you act like I do that all the time. Please.

Well...Ben apparently thinks GMs should draft Chris Bosh...who is equivalent to a shorter, skinnier Marcus Camby...over Lebron James...who is equivalent to a taller, stronger Kobe.

HE'S A DAMNED INCH TALLER!! Sheesh, you act like he's 7'0 tall. I'm not agreeing with Ben at all...where did I say anything about Chris Bosh? What's your point in saying I follow Ben around when we're not even saying hte same thing - just similar things?

He also thinks the Cleveland Cavaliers...a team of slashing scorers who play no defense...can play a Sacramento Kings style offense.

Did I say that? No...

If you want to answer for him then answer for him...don't be lazy and chime in at the end of my reply to him.

Where did I answer for him? If you want a private discussion with Ben about this, then why don't you use messenger services or private messages? This is a public board, and if I disagree or feel the need to post, I'm going to post. Because you said something to Ben, I can't reply? What kind of arrogant fool are you? It's a public board, anything you say is fair game. Notice the question marks...answer the questions for once.

If you disagree with him about things then let him speak for himself.

Where am I speaking for him? These are MY opinions, not Ben's. Honestly, who do you think you are? God? You aren't psychic, you aren't even that intelligent. You're a horrible judge of character, and you're lousy at debate. You get on Ben for using semantics, what do you call what you're doing? What gives you the right to criticize everything anyone says, but not be criticized yourself? You even lie about stuff...your dad played in the NBA in the 50's? Aren't you like 22, 23? So your dad's about 80? You ignore statements and questions and focus on how wrong someone else is and how right you are, but you don't prove anything. You go along with what the majority and bash anyone who thinks just a little bit different, even if they agree with you on the obvious. You're stuck in a rut in your thinking and won't think outside of a certain scope, and because of that, everyone elses opinion is wrong.

Answer those questions, too. I'm curious.

I know you're going to say I'm fuming or furious or angry or whatever. I'm not. I'm curious as to why you post the way you do and why you're so closed minded. You'll say I insulted you, but I insulted you no more than you did by questioning my intelligence. I can't wait to read your reply...

Lordy lordy lordy...

A petty fight? What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the following...

What kind of arrogant fool are you?

Honestly, who do you think you are? God? You aren't psychic, you aren't even that intelligent. You're a horrible judge of character, and you're lousy at debate.

But I'll just ignore that...

however, I'm disagreeing and making points.

Sounds to me like you're disagreeing and slinging insults...

You go along with what the majority and bash anyone who thinks just a little bit different,

So when I say it's your prerogative to feel the way you want to feel...and I have the same right to disagree with you but no one should turn it into a petty fight...I'm bashing you...but the above by you is calm disagreement and logical points? Anyway...

OK, this is a question mark: ?
If a sentence ends in one of these, it's a question. If I ask you a question, some sort of response is desired. Normally, when I ask you questions, you ignore them and disagree without saying anything of real use. You didn't answer any of the questions...I was right again.

You jumped to the wrong conclusion. The "come again?" was directed to your bizarre statement that I never do anything...

Is that an insult? I think it was....so

Whoa stop right there. "Is that sarcastic? I can hardly tell anymore" wasn't an insult. It wasn't implying you were being a smart ass either. It was simply asking you if you're being sarcastic by what you said ("You NEVER ignore someone's logical statements" or something of that nature). I didn't want to jump to a conclusion when I hardly had any idea what you meant by that statement. And yes...if I thought you were being a smart ass I would say so...but in this case no that's not what the statement meant.

So let's see if we can wring some conversational value out here...

Yeah, but they were drafted higher than any other high schoolers in history, so they should develop faster, no?

No. They were drafted higher because of the success of the previous high schoolers. If people had known Garnett and Kobe would've developed the way they did both probably would've been Number 1 picks. Likewise GMs think that these players will develop the same way so they're not letting them drop that far in the draft this time...

Otherwise why would they be drafted in the top five?

As above. I'm trying to answer the questions here.

He's an inch taller than Kobe and the same height as McGrady. He's stronger than NBA players? I doubt that...

He's 2 inches taller than Kobe. Kobe was 6'7" with his previous halfro (even when the hair is pressed down it adds to height)...since cutting his hair he was remeasured at 6'6" (see NBA playerfile). Lebron was measured with the same amount of hair and is 6'8". When I said he was stronger I mean he was stronger than Kobe and T-Mac were at the same age. I'm always comparing him to Kobe and T-Mac as high schoolers...

Where have I disagreed about these things?

I didn't say you did disagree about Lebron's game...the purpose of that paragraph was to restate why people are excited about Lebron for clarity.

I know you're going to say I'm fuming or furious or angry or whatever. I'm not.

I think a lot of the problems are coming from you imagining me implying things that I'm not implying (like that you're a smart ass which I never meant) and you seeing me disagreeing with you about things I'm not arguing about. I'm not going to digress into the fight stuff...I will say that you should do your math again on a lot of those year calculations. Moving on to a relevant issue...

I never said they were better. I'm just saying we can't judge how James will do in the NBA or how he would do in college if he attended.

Yeah, they're better. Why? Competition's better, higher level, the other teams play defense, and the Big 12 is arguably the hardest basketball conference in the nation.

No...actually...you did say they were better. And if they're better than Lebron...and Lebron was better than Carmelo...and Carmelo is the best player in the Big East this year...then ISU must have one of the greatest rosters of all time...

I did my best to answer the questions here without letting this descend into bickering. Let's keep the tirades against my intelligence...character etc to a minimum and just talk about Lebron James and ISU...

...and as far as AIM goes...I'll gladly talk to anyone from this board. Last time I allowed my e-mail address to be available "someone" (ahem) sent me a spam mail message cursing me out. But if anyone wants to AIM me they can contact me at Cycklops...I'll turn my mass IM block off...

Lordy lordy lordy...

Yeah...

I'm talking about the following...

Quote:
What kind of arrogant fool are you?
Quote:
Honestly, who do you think you are? God? You aren't psychic, you aren't even that intelligent. You're a horrible judge of character, and you're lousy at debate.

Well, considering I said that stuff after the statement you made...what are you talking about?

But I'll just ignore that...

Like you ignore a lot of things?

Sounds to me like you're disagreeing and slinging insults...

I didn't insult you...I was just honest with my opinion. Nothing wrong with that...

So when I say it's your prerogative to feel the way you want to feel...and I have the same right to disagree with you but no one should turn it into a petty fight...I'm bashing you...but the above by you is calm disagreement and logical points? Anyway...

Yeah, so you ignored all of my points before the 'insults'...and my points were logical and supportive of my point...but you ignored them. And discredited them. And said I was wrong. With no real statements that backed up your points - which were barely there.

You jumped to the wrong conclusion. The "come again?" was directed to your bizarre statement that I never do anything...

You don't do anything...you regurgitate everything the media and other board members say while acting like you're better than everyone else and saying everyone who disagrees with you is wrong, and therefore you imply that they are less intelligent with you...

Whoa stop right there. "Is that sarcastic? I can hardly tell anymore" wasn't an insult.

I took it as one. You took what I said about you as an insult. It wasn't an insult, what I said to you, it was my opinion on your personality and posting style. You implied that everything I said was made simply as a sarcastic comment; if you take it with the rest of your post, you calling me Ben's follower and so on, it was an insult. You called me Ben's follower simply because I don't jump on the LeBron James bandwagon...we just have a similar opinion.

It wasn't implying you were being a smart ass either.

Yes, it was. What else could that mean? If you say you can't tell anymore, that means that either:

A. You can't comprehend text, which I doubt
B. You were implying that everything I made was a way to be a smartass

It's simple as that.

It was simply asking you if you're being sarcastic by what you said ("You NEVER ignore someone's logical statements" or something of that nature).

Read it...and then ask yourself that again and think about how stupid of a question that was...

I didn't want to jump to a conclusion when I hardly had any idea what you meant by that statement.

Wow, you don't have any comprehension whatsoever...

And yes...if I thought you were being a smart ass I would say so...but in this case no that's not what the statement meant.

No, you wouldn't. You think you're above such comments even though you're barely older than I...and that would be 'insulting,' and you're far too good for that...

So let's see if we can wring some conversational value out here...

What about all the questions I asked you? That would be an interesting conversation...

No. They were drafted higher because of the success of the previous high schoolers.

Didn't I say that? They rode the wave of previous high schoolers success?
That KG and KB8 and TMac were the reasons for the high picks of high schoolers? Yeah, I said that...but you ignored that comment.

If people had known Garnett and Kobe would've developed the way they did both probably would've been Number 1 picks.

Hindsight is 20/20. Michael Jordan would have been the number 1 pick if they had known what he would have done...but he wasn't. What's your point?

Likewise GMs think that these players will develop the same way so they're not letting them drop that far in the draft this time...

Yeah, but so far they aren't even getting playing time on horrible teams because they don't know how to play the game of basketball. All the plyaers that succeeded were willing to learn and didn't have much expected of them...as opposed to the new high schoolers who are told they're NBA lottery picks since they were freshman and aren't willing to learn the game...but you ignored it when I said that, too...weird.

As above. I'm trying to answer the questions here.

But you haven't answered my questions...just a couple of them...

He's 2 inches taller than Kobe. Kobe was 6'7" with his previous halfro (even when the hair is pressed down it adds to height)...since cutting his hair he was remeasured at 6'6" (see NBA playerfile). Lebron was measured with the same amount of hair and is 6'8". When I said he was stronger I mean he was stronger than Kobe and T-Mac were at the same age. I'm always comparing him to Kobe and T-Mac as high schoolers...

Oooo, two inches...Kobe's a guard, James is a forward...it doesn't really matter that much. Do you have accurate stats of Kobe and TMac and James benches and so on to compare? I really doubt it...so how can you say they're stronger?

I didn't say you did disagree about Lebron's game...the purpose of that paragraph was to restate why people are excited about Lebron for clarity.

But everyone knows why people are excited about LeBron James...everyone knows. People that don't follow the NBA know. You didn't need to restate it. I've said I know why...and if I'm the only other person than Ben disagreeing here, what was the point of restating something that was as pointless as this? The only purpose I can see was to try to make it look like I was disagreeing with the fact that James is talented.

I think a lot of the problems are coming from you imagining me implying things that I'm not implying (like that you're a smart ass which I never meant) and you seeing me disagreeing with you about things I'm not arguing about.

If that's the case, what are you arguing about? The only thing you've said is that I'm wrong about LeBron James' talent - which I've conceded because that is unarguable. I'm not imagining anything. If you don't want to be misunderstood, perhaps you should be more specific? Perhaps you should actually make a point?

I'm not going to digress into the fight stuff...I will say that you should do your math again on a lot of those year calculations. Moving on to a relevant issue...

But you said we were fighting in the first place...and we weren't. I should do my math? You're the one not even paying attention to a single thing I'm saying.

No...actually...you did say they were better. And if they're better than Lebron...and Lebron was better than Carmelo...and Carmelo is the best player in the Big East this year...then ISU must have one of the greatest rosters of all time...

Yeah, my bad. I should have said 'he's more talented' than them. But they're still better because of the level they play at compared to the level of James' competition. But level of competition doesn't matter in whatever world you live in...

Did I say that ISU had the best roster of all-time? No...did I say Carmelo Anthony wasn't the best player in the Big East, or possible the entire NCAA? No...did I say that James hasn't proven anything? Yes. Did I say that collegiate players have? Yes. Have they? Yes. Might James be the greatest player ever? Yes...but we don't know because he only plays against high schoolers. But you won't see what I'm saying because you're far too dense to even think about accepting another person's view...

I did my best to answer the questions here without letting this descend into bickering.

Not to sound sophomoric...but you started it by saying that I was simply following Ben and what not. You're the one that helped to 'descend this into bickering' by being who you are.

Let's keep the tirades against my intelligence...character etc to a minimum

I did...do you really want me to lay into you with everything I have?

and just talk about Lebron James and ISU...

I used ISU as an example and you're making it an extremely large part of the discussion. My point was college players are more polished and know the game better and play at a higher level. I guess I can't make analogies on this board, as they seem to go over everyone's heads. They've proved they can play at a level higher than High School, and James hasn't proved anything. But you're too dense - or have lower comprehension skills - to see that.

and as far as AIM goes...I'll gladly talk to anyone from this board.

That's wonderful...but you said I couldn't respond to you because your statement was made to BEN. I said you should do a private conversation of that sort of an AIM or personal messages. I could care less if you block everyone or not...

Last time I allowed my e-mail address to be available "someone" (ahem) sent me a spam mail message cursing me out.

Maybe he had a legitimate reason...and it's not spam if it's specific to you and not sent to a million other people...

But if anyone wants to AIM me they can contact me at Cycklops...I'll turn my mass IM block off...

I'll get right on that...