What happened to big men?

[[Pistol]]

I remember the times when the L was filled with 7-0, 7-1 cats, who could shoot, rebound and block. And now? The only decent big man is Shaq, who's already on the decline of his career (weight loss or no weight loss)... Yao Ming? We'll have to wait and see, but that's still only centre for the future. Where are the others? Sure, Milicic is a huge prospect, Okafor will hopefully suit for Mourning's role, but - once again - where the hell did everybody go? Some of the future draftees are also centres and are compaired with guys like Sabonis (Andriuskevicius) but they all have something in common: they prefer playing outside. WTF?!? You're a over sevet foot tall and you want to play a 4?!? God I hope that the Warriors will put Biedrins on C position and that he'll pan out as a mofo. I just hate the '00.

FUTURE
Greg Oden (16) - 7-1, 250 pounds

Greg Oden is an incredible physical specimen for a 16 year old. He's already bigger than most centers in the NBA and is still growing! A prototypical center who plays inside. Great athlete for his size. Has good strength, leaping ability, and explosiveness for his size. Quick leaper who explodes off the ground and finishes strong. Will dunk the ball anywhere within 5 feet of the rim. Has a raw but developing post game. Has a decent jump hook that he uses to shoot from out to 10 feet. Loves to use a drop step to get close to the basket then throw down a viscous dunk. Right now the best part of his game is defense. He is a remarkable shot blocker and rebounder. Is an intimidating presence in the paint. HUGE potential.
...
Comparison: David Robinson

[Jackal]

If that kid is only 16 and already 7'1, I would think he'll keep growing. If he does keep growing and doesn't take care of himself in a healthy manner (since they would need extra attention etc) I think he could have all sorts of bone problems & crap like that.

All decent big men died & went to heaven, now everyone wants to be a shooting gaurd, omfg...Dirk can shoot the three, fuck an inside game, I'm gonna be three point champion.

Bah, physical play scares them.

[J@3]

The game's developed to the point where it's not entirely necessarily to have some fat prick standing around in the key grabbing a few rebounds. I don't think it's fair to say Dirk's scared of physical contact because he shoots alot of outside shots, because that's his strength. He's an amazing shooter for a big man so why waste it banging around inside when he could be making much more of an impact outside? Same goes for all of the others. However, guys that are predominately inside players with no outside shooting touch who want to play inside but dont want to bang around in there are wimps.

On that Greg Ogden bloke, they seem to say the exact same things about high schoolers every year. Rarely do they turn out as expected.

[[Pistol]]

Oden is 7'0 without shoes (I always give an inch (shoes), cause that's the true basketball height) and will probably grow to 7-1, 7-2 - 7-2, 7-3 respectively). And just look at the fact that he's already at 250 pounds and all of that are muscles! I can imagine him as an 18 yo, 7-2 and 300 pounds. Lew Alcindors height, Shaq's muscles and Olajuwon's game. Ain't that a saviour.

I guess you're right. MJ fucked up everything .

[[Pistol]]

...
On that Greg Ogden bloke, they seem to say the exact same things about high schoolers every year. Rarely do they turn out as expected.

There's a difference: none of them has the same tools - the combination of skills, height, muscles and athleticism. And also: he's a post specialist and already one of the best if not the best HS defender. Other highschoolers were or fat or undersized or just lacked passion. And it looks like Oden deserves only superlatives.

[NNpF]

I do agree that now almost all big man can shoot the ball and very rarely play in the post. I mean even Ben Wallace is developing a jump shot . And Dirk is beginning to play more of a post game but he will never change, I mean if he's an All-Star because of his game right now why would he change? Even Yao Ming takes jumpers from time to time. I think Shaq is like the only center who can't shoot at all. I think that the era of the big men is over. It is now time for the era of the outside shooters.

[J@3]

There's a difference: none of them has the same tools - the combination of skills, height, muscles and athleticism. And also: he's a post specialist and already one of the best if not the best HS defender. Other highschoolers were or fat or undersized or just lacked passion. And it looks like Oden deserves only superlatives.

I've never seen him so I don't know, but it just reeks of Kwame-ness.

I think Shaq is like the only center who can't shoot at all. I think that the era of the big men is over. It is now time for the era of the outside shooters.

The era of the big men is over because for some reason GM's think it's a good idea to draft a guy just because he's 7'2. Ignore the fact he can't shoot/defend/rebound, he's 7'2! So of course when someone like Nowitzki comes along, a 7ft+ player with a great shot and the ability to rebound the GM's have an orgasm over it and decide that maybe the future's in these athletic jump shooting big men, as opposed to the big white stiff who grew 2 feet in high school and has been playing basketball for 3 months.

[John-John Joe]

Two words: Michael Jordan. Everybody wants to be Mike, most of these big guys have no business playing out on the perimeter. Now all the little guys want to post you up, like who? Like Mike. Today's NBA is very strange indeed...

[[Pistol]]

I would admit that a concept without capable big men in the paint is working if Dallas won the championship ring. But they didn't... The fact is that Dallas doesn't have a serious inside presence. So, everytime when Dirk goes out for a shot, they're empty in the post. A little bit of a problem for a we-want-rings team. See, that's why they got Dampier. Centre is still a need and there is no future without them.

[GloveGuy]

Two words: Michael Jordan. Everybody wants to be Mike, most of these big guys have no business playing out on the perimeter. Now all the little guys want to post you up, like who? Like Mike. Today's NBA is very strange indeed...

I wouldn't blame MJ for the problems we see in the big men. He's more responsible for the lack of fundamentals we witness in our swingmen, who only look for the SportsCenter "Play Of The Day." They watched Jordan make these jaw-dropping plays, completely ignoring the fact that he had more fundamentals than anyone in the league. But that's aside from the topic...

The fact is, many big men just suck. They can't really shoot and they can't really demand the ball down low, because they just don't have the ability or the skills. Even Shaq has a lackluster post game, and is dominant moreso on his physical advantages. I like what I see in Yao Ming though, whose post game has progressed over the past two years, due to the Rockets hiring of Patrick Ewing, who's been able to act as a teacher to Yao. Most centers in the league now just don't have the fundamentals and the footwork, and they don't really have anyone to teach it all to them now that they're in the league.

[Carlos Boozer]

Duncan is shooting jumpers

[Sauru]

you know, i would have to blame the chicago bulls for the lack of real big men. now you might already be saying, wtf is this kid talking about, so her eit is. before the bulls all the championship teams had a good center. they all did, then the bulls came along and won 6 without a real center. the bulls truely changed the game of basketball.

[NNpF]

A lot of people argue with me when I say Dampier is one of the best centers. But the thing is, he is one of the few centers who play like centers. And no, he is not better than Shaq or Yao Ming. But I mean how many players who actually play like centers are better than him? The only guys I can think of who play a post game are:

- Shaq
- Yao (does take the odd jumper or two)
- Ilgauskas (also has moments where he shoots a lot)
- Magloire
- Dampier

So yes there are better centers than Dampier, but how many of them play like a center is supossed to play?

Now heres something some people should know, when Divac came into the league he had a great low post game, then when he went to Sacramento he lost that post game because Sacramento's offense is about passing/shooting big men. When Brad Miller was in Indiana he had a great post game, next thing you know hes in Sacramento and POOF! He spends most of his time at the top of the key shooting off pick-and-rolls. So as much as I like the Kings their offense does ruin the post game of big men.

[John-John Joe]

you know, i would have to blame the chicago bulls for the lack of real big men. now you might already be saying, wtf is this kid talking about, so her eit is. before the bulls all the championship teams had a good center. they all did, then the bulls came along and won 6 without a real center. the bulls truely changed the game of basketball.

What? Sauru, you're the man! I totally agree, it has alot to do with the influence of Michael Jordan and the Bulls....

[Matthew]

Two words: Michael Jordan. Everybody wants to be Mike, most of these big guys have no business playing out on the perimeter. Now all the little guys want to post you up, like who? Like Mike. Today's NBA is very strange indeed...

So what next? Big guys trying to imitate iverson? Or small guys trying to imitate Timmy Duncan or Shaq? I think players growing up try to be like their favourite players (magic, iverson, mj etc etc) but once they reach 16 or 17, they want to be their own man. Each player is different of course, but generally speaking, i cant see why players would want to be like mike when they are 19 or 20 years old.

[John-John Joe]

Two words: Michael Jordan. Everybody wants to be Mike, most of these big guys have no business playing out on the perimeter. Now all the little guys want to post you up, like who? Like Mike. Today's NBA is very strange indeed...

So what next? Big guys trying to imitate iverson? Or small guys trying to imitate Timmy Duncan or Shaq? I think players growing up try to be like their favourite players (magic, iverson, mj etc etc) but once they reach 16 or 17, they want to be their own man. Each player is different of course, but generally speaking, i cant see why players would want to be like mike when they are 19 or 20 years old.

Wussup Camby, my point is that Mike's influence is heavy on this generation of ballers. Because of this tremendous influence the influx of players from the early 90's until now have been more perimeter based. My rationale being that it just wasn't as "cool" to be a big man who stays in the post and takes the high percentage shot. I'm not saying this is law, simply a theory that's all.

[Matthew]

I get what your saying, and maybe some of its correct. When I look at KG, I see the evolution of Pippen (just like when i saw jordan, you see the evolution of dr j). But I think by the time players are in the NBA they aren't like mike, or trying to be. Maybe when they were younger they emulated their game around their hero's, i have no doubt that's true, but i just don't buy that players like dirk or peja are perimeter orientated becuase of mj.

Maybe it's true and I'm blind to see it?

[John-John Joe]

I get what your saying, and maybe some of its correct. When I look at KG, I see the evolution of Pippen (just like when i saw jordan, you see the evolution of dr j). But I think by the time players are in the NBA they aren't like mike, or trying to be. Maybe when they were younger they emulated their game around their hero's, i have no doubt that's true, but i just don't buy that players like dirk or peja are perimeter orientated becuase of mj.

Maybe it's true and I'm blind to see it?

Not at all, as far as being blind. I think it goes much further than saying guys are perimeter oriented because of MJ like the two you named. Naturally, we have to take into account the natural evolution of the game. But when you see all the one on one, (please don't jump on me fellas, I know that one on one play existed way before MJ, most notably in the ABA.) jab-stepping in the corner in an isolated situation, 2 guards calling point guards off the ball and so many smaller guys posting people up you have to say alot of that is MJ influenced.

Even the common term "supporting cast" is an MJ term. When he first used it in the early 90's in a post-game interview, his teammates were appalled at the term. Now it's part of the common vocabulary and no one thinks twice about it. But once again, it's only my personal theory.

BTW, I've known you for years and had no idea you were from down under! I always pictured some kid out in Wisconsin somewhere.....

[Andrew]

I think it's evolution of the game gone awry. Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing all demonstrated the ability to hit shots from outside five feet. They were still traditional centres who could mix it up in the paint, but they could keep opponents guessing with an expanded offensive arsenal. Before them, Kareem was quite similar. His skyhook is a noted deadly post move, but he could easily make it from fifteen feet out.

The concept of developing centres that can play smaller than their position (as guys like Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing could) isn't a bad idea, but I think it's taken away from the traditional development of big men. They're expected to take to the inside game without much work because of their size while attention is given to the range of the jumpshot. As I said, not a bad idea per se, but it is wrong to neglect the fundamentals of post play, footwork etc.

I don't think players emulating Michael Jordan is any more dangerous or detrimental to the game than players emulating Dr J back in the day. What about people trying to throw Magic Johnson passes before they mastered a simple chest pass?

The old school players who were flashy still had good fundamentals. A lot of people (especially young players who are inspired by them) probably forget that. Mind you, it is the coaches and the GMs that are rewarding players who aren't developing properly or in the traditional manner, so I don't think the blame can lie with MJ alone.

Similarly, I don't think the success of the Bulls has completely changed the idea of building around big men. Every champion since 1998 has featured an imposing frontcourt presence and big men are still highly prized. No guard has gone first overall since 1996 (Iverson) and before that, Magic Johnson was the last (1979).

[Rens]

I don't see what's wrong with evolution.

This only makes players who can play in the post more valuable. Once kids see this, you'll see the trend go the other way again. Shooting big men are pretty much the reaction to big shotblockers, and partially the zone.

[Matthew]

Similarly, I don't think the success of the Bulls has completely changed the idea of building around big men. Every champion since 1998 has featured an imposing frontcourt presence and big men are still highly prized. No guard has gone first overall since 1996 (Iverson) and before that, Magic Johnson was the last (1979).

Lebron James?

[Andrew]

There's proof I'm living in 1998.

"Similarly, I don't think the success of the Bulls has completely changed the idea of building around big men. Every champion since 1998 has featured an imposing frontcourt presence and big men are still highly prized. Only three guards have gone first overall in the last 20 or so years: Magic Johnson in 1979, Allen Iverson in 1996 and LeBron James in 2003."

[J@3]

Re: All of this talk about MJ's influence...

I played C for about 50% of my basketballing life because I was always the tallest, the coach tells you to go stand on the low block, grab rebounds and post up. It's the most boring thing in the World. I used to hate basketball just because I was always stuck down there getting mauled by some fat prick purely because I was the tallest on the team. If anyone here has played Center for a long period of time they know this, it's boring. No one really wants to do it, especially if you've got a jumpshot as good as the guards on your team. So I started stepping out and shooting more, til the point where the coach moved me to Small Forward and found someone else to play C. I think alot of kids (I suspect it happened with Dirk) just dont want to play down low because it's boring, so they find other ways to contribute. And lets face it, if you're 7ft tall now, when you were 13/14/15 you would've been like 6'8 so chances are you'd be forced to play inside too...

[Sauru]

i personally love playing the post. most often i run the point for my team which usually gives me a small defender. now if i dont have the ball in my hands i run to the post alot, i think its alot of fun. i am not a big guy but i developed a hook shot thats damn good, and i did it knowing that other small people will always be guarding me.

now i can see your point as i am not banging with guys who are 270+ and thats could be a big reason that these guys dont wanna hang downlow all game long.

[J@3]

I didn't mind posting up little guys because thats when you can kinda show what post moves you can do, because they're not going to be able to knock you off balance or anything like that. I know with me, alot of the guys I had to post up weren't as tall as me but easily weighed alot more. And it's not very fun playing a full game just trying to push around some fat sweaty guy for no real outcome.