Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby koberulz on Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:40 pm

Dee4Three wrote:51 players played 82 games in 91-92, that's triple the amount of this past season (Don't say see my previous post, it's still relevant in this conversation).
You're basically saying 'resting players doesn't work, because players still aren't managing to play 82 games'. Obviously they aren't playing 82 games. That's the point of resting them.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:54 am

koberulz wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:51 players played 82 games in 91-92, that's triple the amount of this past season (Don't say see my previous post, it's still relevant in this conversation).
You're basically saying 'resting players doesn't work, because players still aren't managing to play 82 games'. Obviously they aren't playing 82 games. That's the point of resting them.


Are you going to keep ignoring the fact that there were also less injuries?
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:15 am

benji wrote:It's not games, it's minutes. The Spurs were once again first, but everyone's doing it.

Two players logged 3000 minutes last season, both 22 or younger, only eleven cracked 2750 including MPG leader LeBron James (37.8).

Twenty-two players logged 3000 minutes in 1991-92, with 45 playing over 2750. 20 players averaged 37.7 MPG or more.

The reason everyone talked about LeBron leading the league was because he already had logged more minutes in his career than Jordan. Not at the same age, at two years younger. He wound up ending the year over 50,000 minutes.

The regular season minutes leaders are quickly filling up with modern players, the combined minutes leaders will all be modern except for the ungodly Kareem and Malone. This is despite them playing vastly fewer minutes per game and often even playing fewer games per season. It's simply that they're playing far more seasons, and playoffs.

The non-Hall of Fame players in the top 50 in regular season minutes played that started playing after 1995 now include: KG, Kidd, Dirk, Kobe, Duncan, Ray Allen, Pierce, Vince Carter, Joe Johnson, LeBron, Jason Terry, Andre Miller, Shawn Marion, Pau Gasol, Steve Nash and Michael Finley. Tony Parker, Jamal Crawford and Carmelo Anthony are all within striking distance with Anthony being a lock to not only make it but move up. Dwight seems like he should be a lock to make it too unless he retires early for a big man. And all these guys had at least one lockout shortened season, many had two. KG passed Elvin Hayes and Dirk has a good shot at it, despite both averaging under 35 MPG, Hayes did 38 MPG.

A combined minutes total would be even more overwhelmed by modern players. More rounds, more games. Kareem played in 8851 playoff minutes. Earning six rings and ten NBA Finals trips. LeBron has already played in 9127 playoff minutes. That got him three rings and eight Finals trips including a seemingly impossible seven straight. LeBron's never played less than 460 minutes in a playoff season when the Cavs got bumped in the second round and he took his talents to South Beach, Kareem's first ring only took him 577 minutes. LeBron's always played when a minimum of twelve games were required to advance to the Conference Finals. Kareem lost in three Conference Finals without having played twelve playoff games. He never needed 16 wins for a title.


Thank you for the well thought out post.

LeBron started his career many years earlier than Jordan, which is also why the minutes are that way. Jordan. Retired the second time (after his 6 titles) after only playing 13 years in the league. LeBron started his career at 18.

Longevity wise, I disagree with you. You mentioned a couple names, without mentioning Kevin Willis who played til he was 44, Robert Parish, AC Green, and many others. Long NBA careers still existed.

I'll say again, injuries down but minutes up 26 years ago. If any advancements have been made, I am certainly not seeing them. I do not see the results.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby koberulz on Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:28 am

Reported injuries are up. Injuries requiring time off are up.

That's not the same as injuries being up.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:32 am

koberulz wrote:Reported injuries are up. Injuries requiring time off are up.

That's not the same as injuries being up.


Are you stating that as a fact? Or we don't know?

I'm asking for solid evidence of advancements.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Axel on Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:53 am

JaoSming wrote:It sucks, but away teams owe nothing to the home team's fans. Even if the away team's fanbase is shared like in Florida. It's not like there is a Lakers merch stand in Boston when they visit.


Of course they owe it to the opposing team's fans. They all play in the same league, and its success (or failure) drives the success of its franchises, which obviously benefits the players.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Sauru on Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:53 pm

i am fine with teams resting players just give us a refund on the insane ticket prices when the top players are not playing
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:55 pm

The advancements are really showing early this season. Players dropping fast. Draymond Greens strained knee, Lins knee (possibly done for the season), Leonard out for game 1 of the season, Chris Paul hurt in the first game, Casspi out with knee soreness, Igoudala out because of his back, Marcus Morris out another week because of right knee soreness, Rondo hurt in the preseason on Oct 6th.. etc etc.

Just another season with a slew of injuries. You guys ever think that maybe this "off their feet as much possible" approach is possibly making it so players are not physically prepared for the riggers of NBA intensity?

As in, players are resting more off the court, playing less minutes, and the players body isn't fully prepared once the on court action starts?

Just throwing out some ideas here... you know.. with the advancements and all clearly not showing the results again this year.

Maybe they should go back to old school workouts? Maybe they should play more, workout more, maybe play more in the games?

Just throwing out some ideas here.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby koberulz on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:13 pm

Maybe people who do this for a living know more about it than you do.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 pm

koberulz wrote:Maybe people who do this for a living know more about it than you do.


Maybe that's not an acceptable answer to the question.

And maybe, if that's your thought process, stop getting on here and complaining about decisions coaches, players, organizations make, or a decision in real life a healthcare professional makes, or a politician, or a teacher, or anybody in a profession that you are not in. Because you know, maybe they know better.

And maybe, if that's your thought process (which I doubt it is as a whole). you shouldn't be on a basketball website where people question the decisions of coaches, players, organizations, and the league itself on a daily basis.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby air gordon on Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:58 am

sorry guys. not sure what is being debated in this thread anymore

Caspi slipped on a wet spot. Lin landed awkwardly after getting hit in mid air. Leonard is still rehabbing a quad injury. Draymond Green was hit in the knee. CP3 playing through a shoulder contusion and knee bruise. i don't think any of those are due to an improved diet or high/low intensive exercise program
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:04 am

The point is, injuries are up, minutes are down. That's what we are debating.

In a league that now takes outside shots more than ever, where the game is more outside. We have far more injuries.

And, maybe if bodies were taken care of better, or built better for the on court action, the landing wouldn't have caused that, or the knee bump, etc. Players are seemingly getting hurt in low minutes, with very few drives to the hoop.

Surely in 2017 players can make it a few games into the season without getting hurt, right?

It's been that way the last few years.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby air gordon on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:22 am

ok thanks for clarifying that but i'm not sure the aforementioned injuries can be correlated to the 'advancements.'
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby NovU on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:41 am

Benefits of technology advancements are there. Wade's and Kobe's knees for example. Their careers are extended.

Kids play intense basketball from early age these days. Competitive infrasture has vastly grown too. More young people and even older guys easily can access various leagues at various level of competition, hence better treatment and conditionings are better utilized.

Increased level of competitiveness with increased required strength and athleticism leads to more injuries.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:03 am

Kids play intense basketball from early age these days. Competitive infrasture has vastly grown too. More young people and even older guys easily can access various leagues at various level of competition, hence better treatment and conditionings are better utilized.

Increased level of competitiveness with increased required strength and athleticism leads to more injuries.


I disagree with this to some extent. I don't believe that players are playing any more today. And, if players are stronger and more athletic, they would be able to last longer in a league that isn't as physical, that is more of an outside shooting league.

Do either one of you (NovU and Air Gordon) agree with the comment that we can't question it because we are not in that profession?

Do you see what I am talking about in regards to the bulk of injuries that we have had over the course of the last few years?

Do you see why I am skeptical of any claimed "Advancements" when players can't even seem to make it through the first couple games of an NBA season?
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby NovU on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:28 am

Wilt Chalmberlain played full 48 minutes per game against entire opponent defense collapsing on him. Bill Russell played only a few minutes less per game because of luxury of 5 HOF teammates. None of 80s and 90s superstars were able to do that. Do you see why I am skeptical of 80s and 90s players conditioning?


We get it, my friend, you love 80s and 90s and how you think today's players/league/infrastructures/science/wayGamesArePlayed are overrated. But I don't think you must make every post about that and expect people to not dragged. Let's just lax and enjoy.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:32 am

NovU wrote:Wilt Chalmberlain played full 48 minutes per game against entire opponent defense collapsing on him. Bill Russell played only a few minutes less per game because of luxury of 5 HOF teammates. None of 80s and 90s superstars were able to do that. Do you see why I am skeptical of 80s and 90s players conditioning?


We get it, my friend, you love 80s and 90s and how you think today's players/league/infrastructures/science/wayGamesArePlayed are overrated. But I don't think you must make every post about that and expect people to not dragged. Let's just lax and enjoy.


What does that have to do with my questions or this conversation? I'm asking for proof of results, for proof of said advancements working. You didn't answer any of my questions above.

Also, I don't "lax" and enjoy watching players get injured (including some of the best on teams).

And, I don't consider this conversation a drag. In fact, I consider it a very compelling conversation considering the circumstances around so many injuries. It's actually a very interesting topic that should be talked about more.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby NovU on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:42 am

Dee4Three wrote:What does that have to do with my questions or this conversation?

Stop being silly, my friend. I am exactly using your logic.

Wilt's days players suffered less injury while playing more than weaklings from Jordan and Bird's era despite the shit science advancements.


Because League/players evolved good or bad. This is a FACT that we all come to accept and requiring no further discussion. I hope you come to understanding too but I fear not looking at your track record.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:48 am

NovU wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:What does that have to do with my questions or this conversation?

Stop being silly, my friend. I am exactly using your logic.

Wilt's days players suffered less injury while playing more than weaklings from Jordan and Bird's era despite the shit science advancements.


Because League/players evolved good or bad. This is a FACT that we all come to accept and requiring no further discussion. I hope you come to understanding too but I fear not looking at your track record.


It's not about whether they evolved or not. I am not debating that. I am contesting the claim that advancements have been made, that players are being taken care of better or taking care of themselves better.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:03 am

For example (2015). I can't find the numbers from the last 2 years.


The NBA's been dealing with a painful storyline this postseason: More players getting injured in fewer games.

"Last year's postseason [lasted] 89 games and finished with 109 man games lost to injury," trainer Jeff Stotts told me.

(Stotts maintains a database of NBA injuries at InStreetClothes.com.)

"This year's postseason total is 182 games lost in 78 games."

And these aren't minor injuries to forgettable players. You could assemble an All-Star team just using the NBA's postseason injury list.

Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, and Kyle Korver all suffered season-ending injuries. John Wall, Chris Paul, Mike Conley, and Pau Gasol each missed crucial games.

And at times, the quality of play has obviously suffered.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/06/11/nba-injuries-are-up-91-in-this-years-playoffs/#592925a915ca


So why is this happening? my frustration is the constant "we don't go backwards with this stuff", the constant talk about advancements to how players eat, the medicine they take, the amount of rest they get, the amount of games they play, etc. I don't see the results, I see a lot of injuries, and it has begun that way this year as well.
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby koberulz on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:14 am

How many of those are wear-and-tear injuries?
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:22 am

koberulz wrote:How many of those are wear-and-tear injuries?


I don't know, does anybody have those numbers?

Also, do you stand by your theory of not questioning them because we are not in the profession?

And if that's the case, that we should not question the other careers I mentioned above?
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:27 am

Now this is what I like to see.

http://instreetclothes.com/2017/04/18/reviewing-injury-totals-2016-17-nba-regular-season/

The 2016-17 NBA regular season is over and what should be an exciting postseason has already begun. Sustained health is bound to be a driving force in crowning the eventual champion and this year the league is in a better position than ever. The 4,198 games lost to injury or illness calculated by InStreetClothes.com is the lowest total since the NBA moved away from the injured reserve prior to the 2005-06 season. Nearly 50 percent of the league reduced their injury totals from the prior season and five fewer teams lost over 200 games.

The drop in games lost to injury or illness is bound to draw skepticism from those frustrated with teams utilizing games off for rest more than ever. As ESPN’s Tom Haberstroh noted in February the number of DNP-Rests were on a record pace entering the All-Star Break. The trend continued with teams reporting over 200 games of rest during the course of the regular season. However even with these games included in the games lost sum, the final results would still be the second lowest total of games lost of any 82-game season since 2005. It’s a remarkable turnaround from the 2013-14 season when nearly 5,000 man games were forfeited to injury or illness.


So it looks like the injury numbers DID drop in 16-17, I am curious what the results will be for this season. I wish it went back further, I only show articles going back to 2013.

This site is great, just found it for the first time just now. It breaks down players serious injuries with "Understanding" columns.

Even an article about "Trying to make sense of Manu Ginobilis testicular injury". Make sure to check that one out :wink:

I'm going to keep searching for something that goes into detail about further back (Injury history, not Manu's Testicals).
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby NovU on Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:02 am

Dee4Three wrote:So why is this happening? my frustration is the constant "we don't go backwards with this stuff", the constant talk about advancements to how players eat, the medicine they take, the amount of rest they get, the amount of games they play, etc. I don't see the results, I see a lot of injuries, and it has begun that way this year as well.

What result are you asking for? Result is they are prepared better to compete in modern era bball and benefit from modern era training/rehab tech with accumulated data. players still get injured more because of the way games are played today and how more players push themselves over the limit now days due to the competition asking for it. Why is this not obvious to you?

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/acl- ... t-no-more/
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Re: Lottery Reform, Fines for Resting Healthy Players

Postby shadowgrin on Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:22 am

I'm with Jao on this one, fuck the home crowd, the away team and its star players don't owe them shit.

If Celtics fans want to see transcendent player future HoF Lonzo Ball then go to LA, they have 41 chances to do it within 6 months.
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