The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

[Dee4Three]

It is my opinion that 2k makes drives artifically difficult. I watched the video and was wondering what you expected the cpu to happen

i'm pretty agree with you
i commented sooner today on D43's YT video.
For me, the major failure for the 1st part is the defensive help. i

That has 0 to do with a defender just letting me run by them. The defender on the ball just standing there or offering no resistance is as big of an issue as the help defense.

You guys.. I love you all.. but cmon. I can drive by anyone at any time... and you are blaming the help defense. Being shut off is a part of basketball, making moves to get by someone is also a big part of basketball.

No need to in this game, considering I can just run by them.

Again, let's stop avoiding the glaring issue. It's black and white.

[sticky-fingers]

You're disappointed, but nothing is black or white, but shades.

i got it, i understand, for you, it's a major break. But not for bongo or me, especially because on (at least) the first examples of your video, it happens in real NBA.

Look also at bongos'examples.
I always ask 2K to make the first step better in my wishlists. Before 2K18, you can't pass on the first step old Andre Miller with Russ West... or a C with any PG.
But you're right, there's a problem, it's nearly the opposite now.

In previous 2K, there always was an invisible wall around the defender. Even in my favorite 2K11, there was a defense glitch, CPU defender can fall into a pump fake, jump and going back in your feet before you can pass him ?!
In a way, yes, it was more challenging, but it was also more unrealistic.

Even if extreme slider tweaks fixed it, it wouldn't fix it for the average gamer who doesn't touch them.

You know I love your work, and i support you.
But you can't write that you play 2K17 with an old exe and your own sliders. Without, you (and I) didnt play this game.

Last point, on 2K17 (and 2k16), vanilla, pre-december patchs, post-december patchs, the backdoor defense is also totally broken.

[Dee4Three]

Sorry to both of you if I came off insulting, not my intention.

I'm just saying its an issue that needs to be fixed, and that is shown in my video. That's all.

So my apologies again.

[bongo88]

Sorry to both of you if I came off insulting, not my intention.

I'm just saying its an issue that needs to be fixed, and that is shown in my video. That's all.

So my apologies again.

You not insulting no problems here i enjoy basketball talk.

I'd have to look for more basketball clips of on ball defense against the drive(at any decade, mind you)
but you gotta admit most of those 1st quarter drives people were just running past each other
link the hornacek one jordan jumps on. jordan has no respect for hornaceks drive, lol

this one surprised me link. i dont remember much about big man caffey, but i figured malone shoulda put up some effort considering how highly he is regarded. in the replay, if carr hadn't been there caffey woulda had a nice drive.

anyways, not much time to look through footage of proper on ball dribble drive defense. sorry about that, lol. watching that full jazz game put pace of game and drive usage into a different persepctive than just super jordan/super stockton highlights.
have a good day. no worries here, i like a good basketball discussion

[sticky-fingers]

No problem, I do not feel insulted.

I tried the way you play and yes, i understand, with HoF sliders you can drive with Zaza against every center on every play.
i didnt play that way .... so

I tried so hard to disable this fucking invisible wall with the previous 2K games that i think i achieve to put it in 2K18 with quick sliders

Check 2K share under my (same) nickname.
It's an exaggerated draft, not a complete work, but i think it could help you to work on good sliders and like this game.

[Dee4Three]

Well I mean, I don't play that way normally obviously lol. You have seen my videos, I'm good with the sticks. The video was to make a point haha

[CarolusXCI]

I tried to increase help defense, def. awareness and driving contact all the way to 100, and reduced contact shot success to 25 and ball security to 20. I won't be changing stuff that alter directly a specific player rating (for example, on-ball defense and ball handling, which I always keep at 50/50).

Everytime I tried to iso a Kings wing against the Grizzlies D, I could get passed by Conley or whomever almost every time, but either someone striped the ball from my hands when I started the shooting motion (sometimes it was the same guy who was guarding me during the iso), or Gasol altered/blocked my shot. Sometimes Conley rode George Hill's hip during the driving motion, but as soon as I started the layup animation, Conley contested the shot and I couldn't score.

I tried to start the isolation from one of the wings, but I noticed Gasol was practically waiting for me in the lane. So I knew beforehand that I wouldn't be able to score even driving past my defender.

Matter of fact, in that particular scrimmage, I wasn't able to score a single basket (only driving head-on after calling an iso) until Memphis had scored 20 points.

I tried to edit the bodyup anims within the iff file yesterday, but I ended up crashing to desktop a bunch of times. I'll keep trying though, because I think it's promising.

[Uncle Drew]

This is why I am not playing NBA 2K18 right now. This is on HOF, and watch the score. This is me just taking straight paths to the hoop without making moves. Either just running around the defender or through. The score is almost a full first quarter score halfway through the quarter JUST doing this. It doesn't matter if Draymond Green is on me, it doesn't matter who is one me on either team (I am switching teams to be on offense every possession). It doesn't matter if Im on the break, or in the halfcourt calling isos, or not calling isos at all. Its the worst defense in video game history.

You can't deny what I am showing with video evidence. Seldom does help come, and even with slider tweaks I just blow past the CPU. It's not fun.

I am sticking with 2K17 right now because it's a lot more fun. This is just complete cake, its so easy.

WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO:

phpBB [video]

I totally agree. 2K played us again. I'm glad I didn't delete 2K17 off my HD. 2K17 has it's flaws too, but I still think it plays much better IMO.

[eko718]

My experience is great with sliders. For your issue, on the ball defense should be adjusted.

As stated prior, I have tried this.

I'm not new to sliders or basketball video games.

Didn't say you were. However, adjusting the on ball defense DOES WORK for the issue you mentioned. I noticed the same issue, specifically in the Prelude.

It didn't work for me. And, the average player (99% of user base ₩ doesn't mess with sliders, they just choose a difficulty. Even if extreme slider tweaks fixed it, it wouldn't fix it for the average gamer who doesn't touch them.

I'm only referring to your issue here, not the average player. And as far as the AI's ability to stay in front of you, the Body Up Sensitivity and Lateral Quickness sliders are the most impactful. This game will not be on 2K17 imaginary forcefield level, which most consider a good thing. You will however get the realistic sidling happening with the defensive player more often than you will just blow by them. It is also much more noticeable with better defenders and I noticed that defensive intensity does change throughout the game. Just my experience.

[CarolusXCI]

Sliders are weird. With Help Defense and Def Awareness at 100, if I blew past my defender from the wing, opposing bigs rarely reacted. Then, I decrease help defense to zero while keeping defensive awareness at 100, and I got stuff like this:

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]

At one time I missed like five times in a row driving against Whiteside. Against Thompson, I could score more often.

[Dee4Three]

My experience is great with sliders. For your issue, on the ball defense should be adjusted.

As stated prior, I have tried this.

I'm not new to sliders or basketball video games.

Didn't say you were. However, adjusting the on ball defense DOES WORK for the issue you mentioned. I noticed the same issue, specifically in the Prelude.

It didn't work for me. And, the average player (99% of user base ₩ doesn't mess with sliders, they just choose a difficulty. Even if extreme slider tweaks fixed it, it wouldn't fix it for the average gamer who doesn't touch them.

I'm only referring to your issue here, not the average player. And as far as the AI's ability to stay in front of you, the Body Up Sensitivity and Lateral Quickness sliders are the most impactful. This game will not be on 2K17 imaginary forcefield level, which most consider a good thing. You will however get the realistic sidling happening with the defensive player more often than you will just blow by them. It is also much more noticeable with better defenders and I noticed that defensive intensity does change throughout the game. Just my experience.

I've been playing 2K17 a ton, and I am struggling to understand the "imaginery force field" that you speak of. When I get stopped, it's because I am actually making contact with the defender or player (I zoomed in for a whole quarter almost every time it happened and I literally made contact with the player). The problem I had with the bumping is that it seemed excessive, and it put us in a staggering animation for a bit long. However, lowering body up sensitivity to 0 really helps, and so does having the pre patch .exe. I enjoy the gameplay much more.

In 2K17, I have to work to get around my defender in one on one situations, it's an accomplishment to do it. I have to use my first step right and at the right time, or I need to pull off the right dribble combo. In 2K18, I don't have to work at all, I just... run by them. Literally. My brother and I both took turns playing the CPU tonight, and we were laughing at how ridiculously easy it was to get by the CPU at any time, with most anyone. We were literally doing it on most every posession, and our FG% was well over 60% doing it.

That's not fun for me, at all. The challenge is completely out the window at that point. Not to mention the players skating all the time. They went from dramatic over the top footplanting in NBA 2K16, to slowing the game down and making more foot planting because of it in NBA 2K17 post patches, to skating players on 2K18. What? That direction is so extreme it makes no sense. I feel like the gameplay is out of ccontrol. It reminded me of the old live and 2K games with all the skating.

Again, the challenge of getting by your guy is a big deal in my opinion. It is no challenge at all on 2K18, it's cake. Players seem to all blend together on the court, not only do they all basically look exactly the same body wise, but they all feel the same. Use the All Time Thunder for a game. You will be out there dribbling 100 mph with Lenny Wilkens, breaking ankles. You will also be slashing passed anybody and everybody with the X man. Also, have you seen the size of players heads? Certain players like Garnett are out of this world horrible, it feels like a complete rush job.

In 2K17, I look forward to using certain players, because they feel different. Also, no oversized heads and not the same body type for everybody.

Overall, I'm pretty crushed in regards to what my expectations were going into the game, and what the game actually turned out to be.

[sticky-fingers]

I tried to increase help defense, def. awareness and driving contact all the way to 100, and reduced contact shot success to 25 and ball security to 20. I won't be changing stuff that alter directly a specific player rating (for example, on-ball defense and ball handling, which I always keep at 50/50).

Everytime I tried to iso a Kings wing against the Grizzlies D, I could get passed by Conley or whomever almost every time, but either someone striped the ball from my hands when I started the shooting motion (sometimes it was the same guy who was guarding me during the iso), or Gasol altered/blocked my shot. Sometimes Conley rode George Hill's hip during the driving motion, but as soon as I started the layup animation, Conley contested the shot and I couldn't score.

I tried to start the isolation from one of the wings, but I noticed Gasol was practically waiting for me in the lane. So I knew beforehand that I wouldn't be able to score even driving past my defender.

Matter of fact, in that particular scrimmage, I wasn't able to score a single basket (only driving head-on after calling an iso) until Memphis had scored 20 points.

I tried to edit the bodyup anims within the iff file yesterday, but I ended up crashing to desktop a bunch of times. I'll keep trying though, because I think it's promising.

I think you have also te decrease player acceleration/speed.
Then, your direct defender disallow you the baseline, and, more often, the help comes to punish you.

[CarolusXCI]

I think you have also te decrease player acceleration/speed.
Then, your direct defender disallow you the baseline, and, more often, the help comes to punish you.

Yes, this is true.

[Dee4Three]

I'm not decreasing the speed of my offensive players to appease broken defense. The offensive movement is fine, I'm not going to hurt that in order to help an already broken defensive system.

[Barkley_Sixers]

I did some tests to see if the defense is really that bad. Unfortunately, it is. I set Lateral Quickness, On-ball Defense and Strenght to 100 to the CPU, while my Strenght is set to 0. It didn't matter, the CPU just let me have a free drive to the hoop everytime. It's not that bad when I drive to the middle, but when I drive to the baseline, It's so easy to get past the defender. It's even worse than the Post spin cheese from 2k17. It looks like It's impossible to bring back the force-field perimeter defense with Sliders. I hope they patch it, or else I might just play MyPark on the PS4

[Dee4Three]

It's almost like how you can make your guy 300 pounds, and he looks the same as he did at 175. And, he has the exact same speed and quickness.

Or how I can turn CPU reach in foul frequency to 0, and they will still reach in many times a game and get fouls.

I think a lot of the sliders and options are in the game just for show.

[hova-]

It is my opinion that 2k makes drives artifically difficult. I watched the video and was wondering what you expected the cpu to happen, because my memory itched that most dribble drives in the nba are hipriding or fairly untouched. I started looking around youtube for dribble drive highlights and found a few then got distracted by a 1995 bulls/jazz game. I watched the whole game last night, and saw so many dribble drives that i was gonna come back today and notate them.

full disclosure, i watched nba religously from 89-2001 or so. then life got busy and have watched much. caught a couple of finals games last year. lebron gave his best, that's for sure. oh, and was a jazz fan. born in 84. all us kids idoloized stockton (we new we'd never have malone stature, but we could play like stockton). never played basketball seriously, but plenty of pickup for fun. just wasn't athletic enough to pursue. that's how i got distracted by this jazz/bull game, but noticed so many drives through the 4 quarters to look at. i remember watching this game because i remember the jordan dunk in the second half. whole stadium cheering for jordan, lol. me too on the couch. couldn't help myself, that jordan for you.

sadly, only got through the first quarter due to time restraints, but you should watch the whole game. Its is just beautiful. anyways, the bulls went 72-10 that year, the jazz went 55-27.

examples of blow by drives:
link stockton blows by jordan. untouched. even worse than your 2k18 video.
link jordan with the drive untouched, little bit of hip riding, but so little i decided to put it in this category.

dribble drives untouched/hipriding

link stockton untouched help defense over
link stockton untouched through the lane
link not really a dribble drive, but longley to the basket untouched
link malone dribble drive untouched, help comes
link lol chris morris untouched with 4 bulls around him, lol
link morris untouched, help doubled
link stockton with a drive, morris with drive on kucos(mismatch)(possible morris charge), then kucos trying to hedge benoit liek players do in 2k(kukoc gets the foul) (this is an amazing camera angle of spacing on drives)
link bulls big man drive (cant tell who) it is kucos\
link malone drives untouched. jordan all over on defense-- where'd he learn to play defense, 2k? left his guy hornacek wide open, team rating going to go down haha
link bull big man caffey untouched with malone defending. runs into helps. good replay footage.
https://youtu.be/S850XEVcF58?t=1592 stockton dribble drive. not much pressure on carr drive. then too bad jordan missed end of quater shot. woulda been a good one.

good drive defense
link - very good dribble drive defense by jordan, but still not much touching, no hard hedge
link - stockton testing jordans dribble drive defense, still not much touching
link - stockton testing jordan again a simple twitch sends jordon into high alert
link - hornacek playing point. jordan cuts him off. very different respect from jordan towards hornacek than jordan/stockton due to hornacek not athletic.

Transition defense
link pippen transition blows by malone
link jordan on semi trasition open jumper
link 2 plays stockton transition then jordan transition on next play
link malone trying to slam the ball against longley, (longle dodged) haha. then stockton playing dirty with dangerous defensive play in trasition (could be an injury on pippen if things went bad)
link horrible tranistion decision by bulls (cant tell who) felt like 2k

capitilizing on mistakes
link malone mistake jordan with defensive rebound capitilizing on malone mistake (perfect malone positioning)
link pippen mistake
link hornacek under the screen. jordan capitalizes.


random haha (mostly commentary lol )
link haha story about jordan going to local movie theater (random, lol)
link jordan attemptin 4 threes a game, so many!
link haha rookie ostertag... we jazz fans loved/hated that guy
link LOL LOL pippen with an airball freethrow we shoulda had reddit back then he woulda been roasted lol fans and commentators acknowledge it loool
link hornacek could shoot... 59% from 3 course it was early in the season... commentary
link haha, another pippen airball freethrow. bad night for pippen love them 90s utah fans haha, commentary about bleeding uniforms when washed, funny guys
link jordan all over on defense. where'd he learn to play defense, 2k? left his guy hornacek wide open, team rating going to go down haha

again, that was all in the first quarter. i watched the whole game last night. more examples in the next 3 quarters. no time this morning. outta the whole game dribble drives, most went untouched/hipriding. few were well gaurded. most relied on help defense to rotate.

now, this isn't the greatest sample size. I included the big men plays for variety. I'd need to watch a variety of games with a variety of players. But these bulls/jazz were no slouch on defense. i'd need a few more games to watch with different players... was gonna watch bulls/san antonion game on the sidebar, but this took too much time.

I say 2k makes dribble drives artifically difficult because according to my memory most drives are rather untouched. link 2k does stuff like this. i tried to find the equivallency in the nba and came up with this play. link not really a great example. doesnt seem to happen that often.

link possibly this play jordan/hornacek is equivalancy. but jordan knows he very much more athletic than hornacek and to jump that drive is quite a bit of quickness and defensive awareness from jordan. would another less equal player jumped that drive in that manner? dunno.

these are the other examples i found before getting distracted by the jazz/bull game
harden untouched on iso plays: link

link nice dribble drive breakdown. 2 drives on this play, 1st drive the pg recovers, but the 2nd drive follows the same hip riding motion almost untouched, the drive is ended by help defense in the paint, which led to the kick out

anyways, it's my opinion that this 2k, while not perfect, and while can be exploited if user want to, is moving in the right direction with the movement scheme. I am super impressed in the customability of this 2k. they added more movement sliders. the difference between tomba sliders here and shady sliders hereis amazing that you can get the game to feel so different.

with your video, the help defense should rotate more. i havent looked much into iso drive by plays to see how help defense rotates in real nba, but to say that this doesn't mimick nba drives just itches my memory wrong.

oh, transition defense... long passes can also be exploited. but i think its better than cpu ai deflecting passes that they not even looking at (happened lots on transittion in old 2k games). i got no problem with the transition defense clips you posted. in full transition defense (and transition defense that is just sets) all sorta things happen on defense/offense. its part of the game.

anyways, perhaps help should slide over more and movement can be slowed/sped up (both helped with nba2k sliders), but to say that nba players are always stonewalled on a dribble drive is just wrong according to my memory of the games i've watched.

the real question: is this game artificial, or are older 2k dribble drives artificial and this game more true to player movement.

in my opinion, the hip riding animation is a nice break from the stonewalling, but 2k needs to put even more seperation on drives.

ps. make sure you watch the 2 pippen airball freethrows my favorite clips of first quarter haha hate them bulls... boohoohooohooo gonna need tissues as i cry and cry on my way to work, haha

Very interesting post. I was watching some tape and I recognized that, too. A lot of drives are easier than one might think. Good help defense and a the ability to finish or not determine how a drive ends.

I think the problem should be adressed via patch, but I hope they are not too zealous to make on-ball D too strong again. Right now the feel for the drives is good, they feel contested and it's not easy to finish every drive but it is simply too easy to get to the basket.

Changing the sliders helps a bit, especially ball handling and ball collision make it tougher as the ball gets lost more often when you simply drive into players, but it still is easy to get close to the basket with good players. With bad players I have problems with my slider set to get past the defender.

[sticky-fingers]

I'm not decreasing the speed of my offensive players to appease broken defense. The offensive movement is fine, I'm not going to hurt that in order to help an already broken defensive system.

Well, you point something you consider as a break, sliders can fix it, at least partially.
I modified the same settings - but for the CPU - on older NBA 2K when first step wasn't as good as it should.

[Dee4Three]

I'm not decreasing the speed of my offensive players to appease broken defense. The offensive movement is fine, I'm not going to hurt that in order to help an already broken defensive system.

Well, you point something you consider as a break, sliders can fix it, at least partially.
I modified the same settings - but for the CPU - on older NBA 2K when first step wasn't as good as it should.

I havn't tried that, but I'm not even sure sliders can fix it, even if we do mess with offensive settings. People are claiming that they turn the defense to 100 and it does absolutely nothing.

[sticky-fingers]

give a chance to shady mike's sliders

[JWL3]

Dee is right about the D being broken. At first I thought it was only because I was playing on All Star level but it didn't matter. All I had to do to get past my guy was mash turbo and keep driving until the defender was past my hip. Better defenders will stay with you longer but never stop you fully. And my speed and acceleration is far from maxed out - halfway upgraded.

[nextnba]

There is a difference with complaining and seeking an answer. I've been able to get my game to work fine by increasing onball defense to 100, increasing inside contact to 100, and decreasing movement speed and acceleration to 65. Sometimes I still feel like the slider breaks and the speed goes faster and defense drops but with this change, it worked well enough for me to have an overall great experience. The defense is very good with this slider adjustments. I just hope it's not a placebo. So far with this, I'm loving the game and it's by far the best basketball game experience I have ever had!!!!!!

[Dee4Three]

So you are saying I am complaining and not seeking an answer.

I HAVN'T found a fix. I will try what you just said. But give me break if you are saying I'm just complaining.

[JWL3]

So you are saying I am complaining and not seeking an answer.

I HAVN'T found a fix. I will try what you just said. But give me break if you are saying I'm just complaining.

There seem to be a lot of fanboys here these days. Either that or a lot of undercover shills for 2K.

Most of the improvements year over year in NBA Live and 2K have been brought about by gamers voicing what they think is wrong with the game. Along with what is right. As gamers, when we don't mention something, it usually means it's just right. (e.g. foot planting and skating have not been an issue in the last 3 years and no one has mentioned it)

[nextnba]

Everyone has different preferences. Some people want a game where they can take a player and score 100. Others want a realistic game with defense. The game is not perfect but from what I've seen, it does allow us to make adjustments to meet our needs. The big issue I had with 2k17 was that speed would break and be inconsistent. Oddly, 2k actually noticed and fixed this by adding movement sliders that limits speed break. Now even if speed break, the limits will prevent it from breaking any further than the limit we set. GREAT!!! I also complained that most of us don't play 82 game schedule so we are stuck with the same schedule every year because 2k was too lazy to change the schedule for games less than 82. So every year, we get laker vs denver as our first game. Well 2k actually fixed that this year! The big problem with D last year was that CPU defense would not guard the 3 point line. Everyone end up shooting 3's. This year CPU now guards 3's and they even come right up to your face, putting their hand on you!

There are things about the game that I don't like but I also recognized that is just my own preference. Not everyone will feel as me. A few years ago, we complained about offensive rebound so 2k end up decreasing all the player's rating on offensive reb. I hated this because I wanted cpu to go after offensive reb so that I can battle for board, making rebounding more enjoyable and competitive. Instead of complaining, I go and increase the offensive reb rating for all the players back to before. I also like a game that plays better defense so yes, I do go and increase on ball defense for most of the G and SF and I still set slider to 100 for on-ball defense. I know this is alot of work and you're saying you shouldn't have to do this, but 2k is not going to make a game just to make one person happy. They are trying to meet the need of the mass.

I am having a hard time driving to the hoop so I'm even wondering if you done something that is making it easy for you. For example, in Hall of Fame, ball security is set to 20 for user and 50 for CPU. I thought about changing this because I lose the ball a lot to CPU. But I did not because it does make me play more careful. I'm not forcing my drives because CPU will steal or I will lose the ball. I'm more careful with my pass because CPU plays the passing lane well. In all, I'm sure you can make the game playable if you're willing to make the corrections needed.