Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Like real basketball, as well as basketball video games? Talk about the NBA, NCAA, and other professional and amateur basketball leagues here.

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:57 am

NovU wrote:What just happened is mind boggling. Ainge finally fucks fucks really fucks up. This is great to hear but even worse, Dan Gilbert just built a superteam out of thin air plus the pick.

I believe Kyrie next to LBJ boosted his play this past couple years. Kyrie next to Hayward will be a mess, helps neither. Horford/Hayward/Kyrie aren't a big 3 teams will fear. Ainge just turned #1 seed into #5 seed team this offseason. Grats.

Isiah alone is a better player than Kyrie at this stage of their NBA career. This is why addition of Jae Crowder vastly unbalances this trade. Minutes these two are going to replace are gonna be huge for the Cavs. Imagine durable and prime Isaiah and Jae playing in place of erratic Irving and ancient bodies like Frye and Richard Jefferson. Adding to the insult, Brooklyn pick absolutely gang rapes. Is this legal? How?

Making this deal with the biggest rival in same conference, did Ainge lose his mind? He had a good shot, great shot at getting to the Finals for the next couple or few seasons. The thing is the Cavs were only gonna get worse while things were looking up for the Celtics.


....

The Celtics gave up a 29 year old, 5'9" Thomas coming off of a hip injury, for a 25 year old, 6'3" Kyrie Irving. Thomas wasn't going to get max money, as we wouldn't pay a 30+ year old undersized PG who relies on quickness and athleticism that kind of money. Irving gives us more years (If he re-signs in a couple years, which I think he will), and he isn't the same liability on defense. While he's not a great defender, he is quite a bit taller, and what happened to Thomas in the Wizards series wouldn't have happened to Kyrie.

We gave up the BKN pick, but not the LA one. Moving Crowder makes perfect sense, because of the log jam at that position. This will give Brown the opportunity to log more minutes (Which he deserves), and Tatum will see the floor more. Tatum has tremendous upside. Thomas and Hayward will be a mess? I heard the exact same thing about Garnett, Pierce and Allen when they came together, people said egos would get in the way, that it wouldn't work. Well, it did. Gordon Hayward isn't a ball dominant player, Kyrie will have the ball in his hands far more as a Celtic. Not only that, combine those two with Horford who is one of the most unselfish bigs in the league, and it should work out just fine.

I hurt for the loss of IT, because he was all heart. It reminded me of when I would watch Iverson and he would put it all out on the floor. To say however, that the Celtics got raped, is completely false. We received a player 4 years younger, who hasn't even entered his prime, and was a major part of a CLE championship. This move makes sense, but it still hurts.
"I don't know if I practiced more than anybody, but I sure practiced enough. I still wonder if somebody - somewhere - was practicing more than me." - Larry Bird

Check out my YouTube channel

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvHJXrqit8Dc6HBY5P6EmAA
User avatar
Dee4Three
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 7369
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:34 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:00 am

Irving however is a flawed player just as Isaiah, just younger. But I condone upgrading at one position at cost of 2 good players is a good move in general. Again, BUT then I am not so sure what triggered such a savvy GM Danny Ainge to make potentially haunting deal with the conference rival. More buffed up Cavs also mean higher chance at retaining LBJ.

Ainge also obviously overpaid for Irving, probably for his youth. They could have netted Butler at less and he is more of a surefire player than Irving. Acquiring Irving is more expensive and higher risk move.

For these reasons, clear winner from this trade for now is the Cavs.
THX TO DOPE-JAO FOR THE SPECIAL SIG! <3
Image
Enjoy! <3 Jao
User avatar
NovU
Crap, what am I going to brag about now?
 
Posts: 11220
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:50 pm

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby [Q] on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:18 am

I think a lot of people are missing the fact that they already have Brown and just drafted Tatum who at the time was duplicating at the same position. So what some people see as the Celtics giving too much away isn't seen as a negative by Boston because they still have depth at those spots
Image
User avatar
[Q]
NBA Live 18 Advocate
NLSC Team Member
 
Posts: 13262
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:20 am
Location: Westside, the best side

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:31 am

And others are overlooking Crowder's skillet is a rare commodity (and on great contract). That and the brooklyn pick are tremendous value

While Boston has depth it doesn't excuse them for burning the currency they had
Derrick is a legend, no matter what. I don’t like how you explained that
Jabari Parker in response to a reporter asking him to comment on Derrick Rose's "fall from grace"
User avatar
air gordon
 
Posts: 7605
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:06 pm
Location: windy city

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby benji on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:42 am

MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.
User avatar
benji
 
Posts: 14540
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2002 10:09 am

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:33 am

benji wrote:
MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.


Agreed. Thomas getting max money at 30/31 years old just won't happen. Him being 5'9", depending so much on quickness and athleticism, his production will already be going down. I doubt he will be considered the best player on a team in 2 or more years.
"I don't know if I practiced more than anybody, but I sure practiced enough. I still wonder if somebody - somewhere - was practicing more than me." - Larry Bird

Check out my YouTube channel

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvHJXrqit8Dc6HBY5P6EmAA
User avatar
Dee4Three
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 7369
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:34 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby I Hate Mondays on Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:49 am

air gordon wrote:And others are overlooking Crowder's skillet is a rare commodity (and on great contract).


+1
When I found out about the package Boston were sending, the first player I've seen as a loss was Crowder over IT (call me mad) because of his energy on both ends of the floor. This past season, I've watched like 15 games where the Celtics were playing but Crowder always impressed me with his defense and smart offense (maybe he was playing under a bright coach but his decision on whether to take a shot or not was brilliant - always looking for an extra pass). There is no point in mentioning that I see Crowder more valuable than that 1st round pick as for now. What I mean by that is that the Cavaliers are obviously contending and not rebuilding. In one or two years from now when Lebron will have left the Kingdom and IT will have signed with a different team, that pick could prove to be more valuable than the other three players combined.
Image
User avatar
I Hate Mondays
 
Posts: 2787
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:41 am
Location: Romania

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby dwayne2005 on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:31 am

According to NBA.com, opponents shot 49.9% against Irving and 45.5% against Thomas during the 2016-17 regular season. Also, Isaiah Thomas was getting 12+ free throw attempts per game compared with 4 by Irving. Statistically, they are similar calibre players but Thomas seems to edge out Irving. I don't get to see the game here so I can't make a more direct analysis, but based on numbers the idea that Irving is categorically the better player don't seem to be supported.

He did play better than Thomas during the playoffs but Thomas did play with heart and didn't willingly abandon a team that made frequent finals appearances (despite fans thinking otherwise, burning jerseys) like Irving has done, so those two factors may negate one another.

It was a comparable trade, only the Celtics were so eager to unload him they gave away another player and a draft pick to do it...

Maybe Isaiah won't be as good this year if his injury prevents him from drawing as much contact as he did last season. He may also not play with the same kind of heart knowing the Celtics weren't behind him and it took extra to get him to Cleveland. I can actually imagine Irving being one of those players who in a few years time you'll see averaging 11-12 points per game. I can only hope Thomas continues to get minutes and maybe looks to try and get double figures in assists now he has some other scoring options.

I can only personally hope shit happens to the Celtics and the Cavs win the finals. I'm behind the underdog, the guy who is drafted last and kicked about from team to team because of his height.
dwayne2005
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:00 pm

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:37 am

good post. IT's defense or lack thereof seems to be well known but Irving's is similarly bad
Derrick is a legend, no matter what. I don’t like how you explained that
Jabari Parker in response to a reporter asking him to comment on Derrick Rose's "fall from grace"
User avatar
air gordon
 
Posts: 7605
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:06 pm
Location: windy city

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby [Q] on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:26 am

Dee4Three wrote:
benji wrote:
MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.


Agreed. Thomas getting max money at 30/31 years old just won't happen. Him being 5'9", depending so much on quickness and athleticism, his production will already be going down. I doubt he will be considered the best player on a team in 2 or more years.

Muggsy Bogues played until his mid 30s but he was more of a facilitator than scorer/superstar so maybe that's what allowed him to continue to play. Earl Boykins was one of the best scorers but lasted until his mid 30s as well.

It's crazy IT just barely became a superstar and people are already talking about the end
Image
User avatar
[Q]
NBA Live 18 Advocate
NLSC Team Member
 
Posts: 13262
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:20 am
Location: Westside, the best side

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:35 am

[Q] wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:
benji wrote:
MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.


Agreed. Thomas getting max money at 30/31 years old just won't happen. Him being 5'9", depending so much on quickness and athleticism, his production will already be going down. I doubt he will be considered the best player on a team in 2 or more years.

Muggsy Bogues played until his mid 30s but he was more of a facilitator than scorer/superstar so maybe that's what allowed him to continue to play. Earl Boykins was one of the best scorers but lasted until his mid 30s as well.

It's crazy IT just barely became a superstar and people are already talking about the end


Boykins never averaged more than 7.2 PPG after turning 31. He was reduced to a bench role and his minutes were cut in half. Bogues never average more than 8 after turning 31, but he was hit by injuries and the majority of the seasons he took a minutes hit.

I'm not saying Thomas won't be good for several more years, I am saying that the side of the trade that factors in age (4 year difference), for similar players, is absolutely relevant. A big factor in this trade was not only the worry about IT's height and injury, but that Irving is 4 years younger.

Who knows, Thomas could still be very good for 4 or 5 more years, and I hope he is... I like him. Hes one of my favorite players in the league.
"I don't know if I practiced more than anybody, but I sure practiced enough. I still wonder if somebody - somewhere - was practicing more than me." - Larry Bird

Check out my YouTube channel

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvHJXrqit8Dc6HBY5P6EmAA
User avatar
Dee4Three
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 7369
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:34 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:56 am

[Q] wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:
benji wrote:
MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.


Agreed. Thomas getting max money at 30/31 years old just won't happen. Him being 5'9", depending so much on quickness and athleticism, his production will already be going down. I doubt he will be considered the best player on a team in 2 or more years.

Muggsy Bogues played until his mid 30s but he was more of a facilitator than scorer/superstar so maybe that's what allowed him to continue to play. Earl Boykins was one of the best scorers but lasted until his mid 30s as well.

It's crazy IT just barely became a superstar and people are already talking about the end

im not sure why there was this big fear of iT getting the max? this past season saw lowry not get the max and only signed for 3years. and he plays a more grounded game and shares a history injury. any smart team will not offer him it, regardless if he's asking for it. sure there's always a chance a dumbass franchise like the bulls would do it but let's just rule them out

IT should have more staying power over bogues and boykins. he can shoot and play off the ball

should be pointed out irving hasn't played closed to a full season in his 6 year career. in fact he's missed over a one-third of the nba season several times and missed some nba finals games
Derrick is a legend, no matter what. I don’t like how you explained that
Jabari Parker in response to a reporter asking him to comment on Derrick Rose's "fall from grace"
User avatar
air gordon
 
Posts: 7605
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:06 pm
Location: windy city

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Sauru on Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:44 am

NovU wrote:Isiah alone is a better player than Kyrie at this stage of their NBA career.



i get that you are the typical reddit user who likes to jump into the circle jerk whenever the celtics get mentioned but this right here is reaching. its crazy how whenever you post i have to figure out if you are trolling or not
User avatar
Sauru
 
Posts: 7726
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:01 pm

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Lamrock on Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:21 am

Sauru wrote:reddit

FUCK THE CELTICS

I like the trade for both sides. The Cavs trade Kyrie while still boasting a roster that can make one last finals run. With the Nets pick and Crowder, they set themselves up well for the very strong likelihood that LeBron leaves in the off-season. I could see Kevin Love being traded next. A Crowder/LeBron/Thompson frontcourt is a pretty good look in 2017.

Isaiah Thomas is one of my favorites, but it's hard to shake the feeling that you can't win a chip with a 5'8" starter... Kyrie is also a liability on defense, but he is a far more gifted player, and despite his flaws, is the superstar the Celtics have been looking for all these years. I don't think this team is any better than last year's, due to the downgrades on defense, but moving forward a team with Kyrie, Hayward and lots of young talent gives them the brightest future of any team not named the Warriors.
Image
User avatar
Lamrock
 
Posts: 10772
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Pacific Northwets

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby benji on Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:46 pm

Kevin Pelton did some RPM crunching to update the team projections:
While the two All-Star point guards in this trade have stolen all the headlines, it's the third veteran player -- Crowder -- who actually has the best RPM projection of the three. Why is that? In part, it reflects the defensive shortcomings of both Irving and Thomas, at least during the regular season.

Befitting their status as efficient, high-scoring point guards, Irving and Thomas rate as standout offensive contributors. Thomas' projected plus-5.2 offensive RPM -- based on performance during the past three seasons and an age adjustment -- puts him sixth in the NBA, while Irving (plus-4.2) ranks 13th. Yet both players have defensive RPM projections that put them in the league's bottom 25, with Thomas (minus-3.7) second worst among signed players ahead of only Bojan Bogdanovic of the Indiana Pacers.

By contrast, Crowder's projection is far more balanced. He's one of 12 players in the league who project at least 1.5 points better than league average per 100 possessions on both offense and defense. Nine of those 12 players were All-Stars in 2017, with Nikola Jokic and Ricky Rubio as the other two exceptions.

The balanced projection reflects Crowder's 3-and-D skill set as well as how much of a difference his presence in the lineup has made for Boston. His plus-7.8 net rating on the court in 2016-17 was second best among Celtics behind Amir Johnson (plus-8.0), per NBA.com/Stats. Meanwhile, Boston was outscored by 3.9 points per 100 possessions with Crowder on the bench, the worst mark on the team.

A single season of on-court/off-court data can be fluky, a reason that RPM projections include multiple years of data. But Crowder had a similar, if smaller effect, in 2015-16, when the Celtics' plus-0.8 net rating with him on the bench was worst among regular players. In 2014-15, when Crowder joined the team midseason, Boston had a minus-3.0 net rating with him on the bench, surpassed only by Kelly Olynyk (minus-3.2).

Since Irving and Thomas figure to play similar minutes, the question here was mostly how to redistribute the 30 minutes per game Crowder was projected to play. (Ante Zizic's five minutes per game were also redistributed to centers Aron Baynes and Daniel Theis.) I split them fairly equally between Brown (previously at 20 minutes per game), Tatum (10, much to the dismay of hopeful Celtics fans) and Marcus Morris (25), while also adding second-round pick Semi Ojeleye on the fringes of the rotation.

In RPM's estimation, Boston should get much worse production in place of Crowder. The Celtics were relatively ineffective with Brown on the court last season -- his minus-2.2 on-court net rating was worst among Boston regulars -- while most rookies do little to help their teams win, even ones as highly regarded as Tatum. As a result, Boston's RPM projection tumbles from 49.4 wins on average before the trade to 43.8, putting the Celtics fifth in the Eastern Conference.

Having added Crowder, the Cavaliers are suddenly flush with wing options. I have Iman Shumpert as the odd man out of the rotation for the most part, though. JR Smith also sees less playing time, and Crowder gets far fewer minutes than he was projected for in Boston (30 minutes per game).

Still, siphoning minutes from those Cleveland incumbents to Crowder improves the team's RPM projection from 49.2 wins -- nearly even with but just behind the Celtics before the trade -- to 53.7, tops in the East and within striking distance of the Houston Rockets (55.1) for the second-best projection in the league behind the Golden State Warriors.
User avatar
benji
 
Posts: 14540
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2002 10:09 am

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:36 pm

Sauru wrote:
NovU wrote:Isiah alone is a better player than Kyrie at this stage of their NBA career.



i get that you are the typical reddit user who likes to jump into the circle jerk whenever the celtics get mentioned but this right here is reaching. its crazy how whenever you post i have to figure out if you are trolling or not

That's actually my real opinion based on some numbers and memory. You know I always smoked high on IT2 ever since his Kings days while repeatedly claiming Irving's an overrated sidekick, having his game elevated by LBJ presence. I told you this, IT2 is a player to keep, not to trade away, if the purpose was to compete to top the East. You always wanted IT2 traded while I believed he's a keeper for next few seasons while his quickness remains serviceable.

In truth IT2 always has been a better player than Irving ever since day 1 when they came into this league together about 6 years ago. Just because IT2 wasn't utilized as much, it doesn't mean Irving's been better. Coaches and teams overlooked on IT2 because of height but now at this stage, accumulated data assures IT2 was always capable and better. I believe this fact will remain the same for next couple of seasons at least, until Irving reaches his peak and IT2 starts to decline.

To make this short, Irving's been good but NEVER GREAT even with LBJ boost, but Isaiah has been GREAT especially as a first option in Boston and always been pretty good within limited freedom due to teams/coaches overlooking his talent.
THX TO DOPE-JAO FOR THE SPECIAL SIG! <3
Image
Enjoy! <3 Jao
User avatar
NovU
Crap, what am I going to brag about now?
 
Posts: 11220
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:50 pm

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby shadowgrin on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:34 pm

Kyrie's p36 production had been pretty consistent pre-Lebron and with LeBron, with the exception of drop in turnovers because LeBron had the ball and points last season just because Kyrie took more shots.

At the very least Celtics now have a reliable player whether he be the first or second option with each team possession.



Just looked at Thomas' stats and Isaiah is better loool.
Think Ainge pulled the trade because of age, defense (not by much), and small man bias.
At least Kyrie can keep up with the likes of Curry or Wall, unlike Thomas whom the Celtics sent to guard the corner shooter to hide his lack of defense or that Bulls series where no offense Rondo almost made the Celtics his bitch but he got injured.
HE'S USING HYPNOSIS!
JaoSming2KTV wrote:its fun on a bun
shadowgrin
Doesn't negotiate with terrorists. NLSC's Jefferson Davis. The Questioneer
 
Posts: 23095
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:21 am
Location: In your mind

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby I Hate Mondays on Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:16 pm

Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?
Image
User avatar
I Hate Mondays
 
Posts: 2787
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:41 am
Location: Romania

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Stress Fracture on Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:23 pm

I Hate Mondays wrote:Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?


Those are just dumbass fans.
benji wrote:LeBron is such a choker. And people were talking about him as an all-time great. As having possibly surpassed Kobe. What a joke.

velvet bliss wrote:Andrew, you the real MVP.

Andrew wrote:He who flops and flails to the Finals and a title, flops and flails best.
User avatar
Stress Fracture
In James I Trust
 
Posts: 2936
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:03 pm
Location: Yao's ankles, feet

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:06 am

shadowgrin wrote:At the very least Celtics now have a reliable player whether he be the first or second option with each team possession.

wasn't it the Celts problem not having a secondary scoring option? IT was rather impressive as their #1 option as well as his 4th quarter scoring. Hayward should fill the secondary scorer quite well

bradley, amir johnson, olynyk, IT, crowder, Zezec, Brooklyn pick, Fultz for Tatum, marcus morris, bayne, hayward, irving, future 1st?

By contrast, Crowder's projection is far more balanced. He's one of 12 players in the league who project at least 1.5 points better than league average per 100 possessions on both offense and defense. Nine of those 12 players were All-Stars in 2017, with Nikola Jokic and Ricky Rubio as the other two exceptions.

The balanced projection reflects Crowder's 3-and-D skill set as well as how much of a difference his presence in the lineup has made for Boston. His plus-7.8 net rating on the court in 2016-17 was second best among Celtics behind Amir Johnson (plus-8.0), per NBA.com/Stats. Meanwhile, Boston was outscored by 3.9 points per 100 possessions with Crowder on the bench, the worst mark on the team.
In RPM's estimation, Boston should get much worse production in place of Crowder. The Celtics were relatively ineffective with Brown on the court last season -- his minus-2.2 on-court net rating was worst among Boston regulars -- while most rookies do little to help their teams win, even ones as highly regarded as Tatum. As a result, Boston's RPM projection tumbles from 49.4 wins on average before the trade to 43.8, putting the Celtics fifth in the Eastern Conference.

stop with your fancy stats, benji. comprende?
Derrick is a legend, no matter what. I don’t like how you explained that
Jabari Parker in response to a reporter asking him to comment on Derrick Rose's "fall from grace"
User avatar
air gordon
 
Posts: 7605
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:06 pm
Location: windy city

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Sauru on Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:58 am

Lamrock wrote:
Sauru wrote:reddit

FUCK THE CELTICS

I like the trade for both sides. The Cavs trade Kyrie while still boasting a roster that can make one last finals run. With the Nets pick and Crowder, they set themselves up well for the very strong likelihood that LeBron leaves in the off-season. I could see Kevin Love being traded next. A Crowder/LeBron/Thompson frontcourt is a pretty good look in 2017.

Isaiah Thomas is one of my favorites, but it's hard to shake the feeling that you can't win a chip with a 5'8" starter... Kyrie is also a liability on defense, but he is a far more gifted player, and despite his flaws, is the superstar the Celtics have been looking for all these years. I don't think this team is any better than last year's, due to the downgrades on defense, but moving forward a team with Kyrie, Hayward and lots of young talent gives them the brightest future of any team not named the Warriors.



i also believe this trade is a win for both teams. the celtics are better today than they were yesterday and the cavs added flexibility in a major way here. who fully wins the trade is based on brooklyn. if that picks falls out of the top 5 then the celtics win, top 3 then the cavs probably win. i really wish we got to keep the pick but if its between the pick and keeping jayson i think they made the right move here. a big part of the trade for me is moving on from thomas. i have said multiple times here and pretty much everywhere that i dont like the idea of signing him and i hate the idea of letting him walk. i have also said he is not the guy you want in your line up when trying to win a ring.

with all that said part of me is still wondering if now is the time to build a team? no one is beating the warriors right now. however getting hayward sort of makes us have to go into full win now mode. we cant be landing top free agents and telling them to wait 4-5 seasons while we keep cycling players out for draft picks. when all is said and done though i dont think anyone can disagree that this season just got more exciting
User avatar
Sauru
 
Posts: 7726
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:01 pm

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Sauru on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:00 am

I Hate Mondays wrote:Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?



if you judge a fan base based on its worst members then you would have to concede that no one has a good fan base.
User avatar
Sauru
 
Posts: 7726
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:01 pm

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby dwayne2005 on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:46 am

Also, in the 2016-17 playoffs, while Kyrie done much better than the regular season in defending shots (43.7%, 2.7% below what is expected), Isaiah Thomas broadly doesn't appear to have been the defensive liability he has been made out as (44.7%, 0.8% below what is expected). It may be true that in the crunch, they have a more focused offense on exploiting the vulnerabilities, but if Isaiah was such a liability in the crunch, you go to your bench. It actually sounds like claims of him being horrible on defense are theoretical because of his stature, rather than actual, and probably prone to a perception amplification when someone does score over him. He appears to be average on defense, nothing special.

For the record, I believe when the stats were first kept (I believe 1997, but right now can't get up before 2013 for some reason) Muggsy Bogues had appalling opponent shooting, but that changed the very next season. And Earl Boykins also had passable opponent shooting figures. This whole notion that the pro's are remarkably better shooters than the average amateur are not necessarily true. Open shots does not necessarily mean money. They maybe make 10% more than I'd make when I last played 20 years ago (gave up for personal reasons; that said, in the last shooting I had, I scored 18 straight 3 pointers, if I had better eyesight I may have done better). You hear on all these NBA 2K commentaries that if they get left open, they'll make the shot because they are a pro. Truth is, in shoot arounds they miss a lot of their shots just like average people do. Hand in the face might accomplish something, but not as much as they make out. (The players are pro's mostly because of their height (largely bias) and athleticism, general skills, good coaching and managing and a bit of luck. Maybe there are some more exceptional shooters out there who just don't have the height to raise the bar significantly in terms of lax defense.)

Disclaimer: I don't know how NBA.com tallies this info. Whether they are just bundling all points by his opponent or whether the player actually has to be defending his opponent. I don't know how reliable their data is.
dwayne2005
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:00 pm

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Andrew on Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:38 am

Sauru wrote:
I Hate Mondays wrote:Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?



if you judge a fan base based on its worst members then you would have to concede that no one has a good fan base.


Well put.

It is strange, though. I guess it's becoming a custom, but it seems more appropriate when a player spurns their current team to leave via free agency, rather than being traded. And even then, only when the circumstances were somewhat controversial.
NLSC Webmaster/Administrator
Image
Contact: Email | Twitter
Release Topics: NBA Live 08 | NBA Live 07 | NBA Live 06 | NBA Live 2005 | NBA Live 2004
Story Topics: NBA 2K19 | NBA 2K13 | NBA Live 06 (Part 2) | NBA Live 06 (HOF) | NBA Live 2004 (HOF)
NLSC: Podcast | The Friday Five | Monday Tip-Off | Wayback Wednesday | 20th Anniversary of NBA Live | Facebook | Twitter | YouTube


Support The NLSC Hosting Fund: Patreon | GoFundMe

Image
Like my work? Want to help out with the NLSC Hosting Fund? Please consider leaving a tip!
User avatar
Andrew
The One Admin
Administrator
 
Posts: 105854
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:51 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:53 pm

Teams don't allow 1 on 1 basketball these days. So individual defensive deficiency can be masked to great degrees in modern era basketball as help out defense has become much easier with illegal defense rule gone. I think that is the case for Irving and especially Isaiah. Teams can single out and attack Isaiah but is it a better use of possession than running the team offense and finding the open man? Does isolation play versus Isaiah(with help D) produce better result?

This is why it's more important to ask team's gain versus loss due to player's defensive ability to live in particular defensive schema rather than individual defensive skillset. You can be Andrew Wiggins who can stop LBJ/KD 1 on 1 but still seriously be a cancerous defensive presence for your team.

Isaiah imho is kinda like Harden. Their offensive ability is vastly more important, most teams are better off changing the style of basketball(to more offense oriented) suit to their game when they're on the floor as commander on offense. Because highly skilled and efficient offensive players are much rarer talent to find than defensive players. But one thing I'd be concerned for the Cavs is that how much of Isaiah's game adds to the already very very successful LBJ led offense, and if his poor defense offset the gain and actually end up hurting the team. Perhaps will Isaiah's excellent efficient offense allow LBJ to lax a bit on offense and spend more energy on D? LBJ's Cavs have been subpar on defensive end for 2 of their last 3 seasons so perhaps that realistically could happen now with Isaiah.
THX TO DOPE-JAO FOR THE SPECIAL SIG! <3
Image
Enjoy! <3 Jao
User avatar
NovU
Crap, what am I going to brag about now?
 
Posts: 11220
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to NBA & Basketball

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests