This is why I have little to no faith in the younger crowd....

Talk about obsession. That specific post was in reply to Jackal, it doesn't concern you or should be bothered by it.

A different topic diverging from another topic is not something new to the forums or even exclusive to this forums.

This thread didn't even start as an invitation to intelligent discussion, all I see in the OP was you posting a pic of a conversation you disagree with and had to bitch about.

Just because you're the thread creator doesn't grant you dictator status to tell what people should talk about in a non-important thread.

No one is forcing you to reply to Jackal's sexy homo erotic posts or keep up your comprehension with branching topics, you can ignore it entirely and focus on your preferred topic to pound on whether it be Jackal's ass or 'verbal gymnastics' with air gordon.

Now move along and stop name dropping me in your posts just because you get ignored by those you're having a discussion with.

This thread didn't even start as an invitation to intelligent discussion, all I see in the OP was you posting a pic of a conversation you disagree with and had to bitch about

It absolutely did. Those comments about Jordan being a shitty jumpshooter are everywhere, and it's based on lack of knowledge of the game. Most of the younger crowd that I see commenting has absolutely no idea what they are talking about in regards to past players, they just digest whatever the media spews out at them, or they just go with the best team or what sounds good. It absolutely is worth discussion

Now move along and stop name dropping me in your posts just because you get ignored by those you're having a discussion with.

You jumped into this discussion with an immature, ridiculous comment. Not me.

Just because you're the thread creator doesn't grant you dictator status to tell what people should talk about in a non-important thread.

Oh, you guys can say whatever you want, I didn't say you couldn't say it. I said it makes you sound silly, immature, and makes it seem like you don't have an intelligent thing to say in regards to the topic. So please, continue if you would like.

No one is forcing you to reply to Jackal's sexy homo erotic posts or keep up your comprehension with branching topics, you can ignore it entirely and focus on your preferred topic to pound on whether it be Jackal's ass or 'verbal gymnastics' with air gordon.

I would ignore it entirely if It wasn't smack dab in the middle for the forum topic on basketball, if I want to comment on it, I will. Just like you will spew some of your nonsense if you want. The way you ended this, again, shows your maturity level.


Trying to stay focused on basketball on a basketball forum is a pretty normal concept. That is what I am doing, but it's tough when I have to weed through all the garbage.

Because my questions are not answered, and because you have not brought up ANY actual points of your own outside of advanced stats, it is clear that the attempt is to just aggravate because you don't have a good argument.

People aren't answering your questions because your whole argument comes back to: I saw it live. I watched it on YouTube. Visually it's just so beautiful. I am right.

Air Gordon is also in this boat, as it's clear with his posts full of wiseass remarks, sarcasm, and flatout aggravation tactics, that he does not have any legitimate argument whatsoever, so those tactics are needed in order to make himself feel elite, smart, and to divert attention off of his lack of basketball knowledge.

He's genuinely asked you questions regarding some games. You mentioned not recalling it, he pointed out that this could be a problem with relying largely on recollection. You're having a fit because of it.

Literally three pages of me not dodging questions, and replying to absolutely ridiculous sarcastic remarks, and immaturity.

It's easy not to "dodge questions" when your answer is "I saw it live, I watched it on YouTube, so great." It's Donald Trump's tactic. I have great plans. I have great ideas. It's great.

You guys lost this one a long time ago.

In one sentence you talk about immaturity, in the next you talk about winning internet arguments. Real mature.

Between exaggerating "Life story" (Shadowgrin)

You acted a bitch because he used the term cancerous and had to go all social justice warrior with woe is me don't use that term I lost loved ones to cancer. It's the internet. Grow a pair. It had nothing to do with the discussion.

When I was making fair comparisons or answering questions, by continuously bringing up rec league when I only used it as a relevant point in the discussion, the cherry picking a word I used to describe an ability that a player has over another and somehow making fun of that term, completely ignoring 90% or more of each statement because you have nothing to combat it with, you guys are absolutely losing.

No one gives a shit about your rec league feats. You're not an NBA player, you posting up some midget who does porn on the weekends with his fist up my ass adds nothing to "what Lebron should do" just because...you can do it in a rec league? Fuck out of here. But don't let anyone dissuade you from the fact you're winning. Make basketball discussions great again!!

And the funny part is, because you guys havn't brought anything to the table really, at all... I have no idea where you stand or what you know in regards to basketball, other than that you look at advanced stats. Air Gordon blatantly lying stating he had to explain advanced stats to me, lying stating that 3pt shooting was not brought up, you guys are completely lost with no argument whatsoever.

Can you give me the link to this thing called YouTube? You know all about that. All you can gather from the discussions on these boards are we know how to use basketball reference. So seriously, how do we watch the games and see the beauty of it all. Make basketball viewing great again!

Oh, and this is foreshadowing because of the way you guys communicate. NovU, no excuse of "Your question was not worth my time" or not worth answering, I have answered some of the most basic, ridiculous questions in the last couple pages in this forum, because I have a strong viewpoint and I don't back down from it. You both do not, and that is very clear.

"I watch basketball. You watch boxscores. Answer my questions. I will answer yours with I watch basketball. Now answer me."

As I am attempting a basketball discussion I get bombarded with this

"Don't use cancer as a derogatory remark. Boo hoo." So. Much. Basketball Discussion. We gotta get on your level.

That is the type of intelligence I am dealing with, in a NBA discussion.

For someone who complains so much about "the kids of now, the intelligence of the basketball community" you seem quite adamant on continuing to stoop to "our" level. I guess it's easy when the whole basis for your argument boils down to: I seen it.

Air Gordon get's credit for expanding slightly more, but his goal of aggravation is also very apparent.

Damn those internet people, basically living day to day just to aggravate some old dude shouting at clouds.

This entire time, I have not only answered questions, I have stuck by my viewpoint and continued to make points that show I am passionate about my stance. I also have stayed on topic, and not dodged questions. You guys lose any credibility when you are in a basketball discussion, and it's clear that your goal is to aggravate/disrupt without making a clear, strong stance of your own on the topic discussed. You just sound ridiculous.

More word vomit stating the following:

Ya'll suck. I answered questions. My opinions are right. I have passion. I watched games since I was X age. I don't dodge questions. Ya'll suck for the record. Your goal is to trigger me. You don't have a good argument. Answer my questions.

My points about how I view players based on how they perform on the court, how I view the players skillsets, I have shown stats to show that any stats brought up, I can bring up some of my own, I have stated why I felt certain players were better (Not just talking about stats, bringing up how they play on the court and what I feel they are better at), I have answered comparison questions, etc. You guys have the audacity to mock me? Or act like I am an idiot? Are you kidding me? What world are you guys living in? Clearly it's a fantasy world.

You are a fucking moron. An idiot would be an understatement.

You keep harping on the same shit trying to get a different reaction. That's a definition of a fucking moron to me. You repeatedly mention "you've won, people are arguing with you to aggravate you, you guys live in a dream world"...then you come right back with a whole fucking post saying the same ol' shit trying to "win" some e-argument again.

By the way, I am absolutely not going anywhere.

Thank goodness. Who would fill our word vomit quota other than our own resident Donald Trump. I seen it. It was great. Let me tell you...it was better than great.

Old ass uptight bitches talking about how they want intelligent discussion but get butt hurt when some term is used which doesn't fit their comfort zone.

Foresight: You didn't answer any of my questions. Why are you even getting involved? I didn't say that. I just want basketball discussion. I won. I am so mature. You guys are so immature. Quote to prove point. Another quote to prove point. See? I am right. Make basketball discussions great again. I can't deal with this. This is just to aggravate me. I have no faith in you guys...but I'm not going anywhere because secretly I'm having the time of my life waiting to see if NovU, Shadowgrin or Air Gordon took the time to aggravate me.

The rings is a gymnastic event. Lighten uP

Most of the younger crowd that I see commenting has absolutely no idea what they are talking about in regards to past players, they just digest whatever the media spews out at them, or they just go with the best team or what sounds good. It absolutely is worth discussion

Then have a discussion with those people you see spewing that shit, not just post a pic in a forum and hope someone agrees to jerk off to your opinion in agreement.

You jumped into this discussion with an immature, ridiculous comment. Not me

I didn't name drop anyone and some of the stupid posts before that aren't exclusive to your posts alone but it seems you're the only who got hurt by my post, if the shoe fits...

I said it makes you sound silly, immature, and makes it seem like you don't have an intelligent thing to say in regards to the topic. So please, continue if you would like

People can only keep rehashing the same discussions over and over and over again. This is not the very first thread about Jordan nor will it be the last. At some point people get tired of banging their head to a brick wall and just make fun of the whole situation.
If you want to read those past threads, forum search function, learn it, use it.

The way you ended this, again, shows your maturity level.

Says the guy who said to "move along" and still can't get over it and goes back.
I did move along like you said fella but you seem to be throwing a hissy fit like a teenage girl if no one pays you any attention.

That is what I am doing, but it's tough when I have to weed through all the garbage.

Surprises me how you're affected by short silly posts that have nothing to do with you.
It's not like me and Jackal wrote an essay long post declaring the ways how ass can be pounded.

Thank goodness. Who would fill our word vomit quota other than our own resident Donald Trump. I seen it. It was great. Let me tell you...it was better than great.

Old ass uptight bitches talking about how they want intelligent discussion but get butt hurt when some term is used which doesn't fit their comfort zone.

You got me, and my old ass uptight bitch self.

Thank goodness. Who would fill our word vomit quota

No worries, I'm here.

Shadowgrin, you continue to prove why I have an issue with you, as you continue the same way you started when you so eloquently entered this thread. When I look at the way you talk on here, it makes me laugh.

If you come onto a thread and state that posts are giving you cancer, and it's right in the middle of people having a discussion, and the context of your comment has to do with downgrading present to support past (Which I was the one speaking about past players being superior, in this case), it is obvious exactly what you are talking about. You don't need to name drop when it's that obvious, and when it's that obvious, I absolutely will speak up and call you out on it.

Topics are posted on here all the time for debate, so what I did by posting the pic is very common on forums, I understand now that it bothered you, you can ignore the thread you know? Right? I mean, you can not click on it? Learn that, learn that it's okay to say no, use that power.

I said move along because you literally didn't bring anything to the table, but garbage. It would be nice to move along without you, however... it was nice to be able to use you as an example for immaturity.

With the exception of this, which you not only made a statement, but you expanded on it.

Talking about defense in general and not a Draymond vs Rodman debate...

Since the rules greatly favor the offense in today's game, the defense is already at a disadvantage yet there are still players that manage to overcome that disadvantage and standout because of their good defense.

Add to that the good offenses today are more complex, more ball movement, more screens off-ball and on-ball, more THREEZ that spread the defense, and you could already see that playing good defense today takes a lot more effort than just molest and assault the ball handler like they did in the past.

So it's not really that absurd to ponder that the defense of today could possibly be as good or arguably even be better than the way defense is played in the past.


Still, Rodman > Draymond on defense.

If people jerk off in agreement, I'd be honored.

It makes me laugh that you have issues with strangers in the internet.

I had to comment because of the really stupid arguments in here.
You moan about the opinion of people denigrating old players in favor of new players when you basically do the same thing as them but the other way around. It's that kind of stupid.

It doesn't matter if their opinion is based on ignorance or yours is based on your experience watching Youtube videos, your reasons are subjective at best. Your arguments are flawed as the haters you hate since your arguments are also filtered by your own personal bias just like the 'haters'.

Hilarious how your go to is calling someone immature when you're acting like a girl that desperately needs attention and throws a post tantrum when you don't get it. We replied to you now, you must be giddy.

It makes me laugh that you have issues with strangers in the internet.

I had to comment because of the really stupid arguments in here.
You moan about the opinion of people denigrating old players in favor of new players when you basically do the same thing as them but the other way around. It's that kind of stupid.

It doesn't matter if their opinion is based on ignorance or yours is based on your experience watching Youtube videos, your reasons are subjective at best. Your argument is as flawed as the haters you hate since your argument if filtered by your own personal bias just like the 'haters'.

Hilarious how your go to is calling someone immature when you're acting like a girl that desperately needs attention and throws a post tantrum when you don't get it. We replied to you now, you must be giddy.

I am giddy, let's continue!

I love how you completely simplify by stating watching youtube videos, when I'm not just saying "I've watched both players, I know". I am giving the reasons why when I watch both players/or decades live or recorded, that I believe one is superior to another. Like my question to NovU, that is a completely fair question. I have also used stats in spots to strengthen points or to show how sometimes they don't matter. I have commented on basically every facet of the players being discussed games, including what I see. Now, saying Jordan is a shitty jumpshooter (which is what started this thread), is absolutely incorrect, without a doubt. The problem is also that this is used in LeBron debates to strengthen LeBron's case, which isn't right. My points have far more thought in them than the "Jordan is a shitty jump shooter" crowd. It's also funny how you are laughing at me for having an issue with strangers on the Internet, when it was you stating that users comments were giving you cancer, as in... those comments were bothering you. You are also really bent out of shape about me calling you out, as in, my comments are bothering you... so it looks like you are being bothered by strangers.

When you simplify something so much to "watching youtube videos" when there is far more involved in the users standpoint, you lose credibility. It also shows me that you can't digest the rest of the material being presented.

However, it seems that this is another situation where no progress will be made, as in we will most likely go in circles.

It wasn't bothering me to the point of annoyance but more on amusement of such stupidity, my cancer statement was said in jest which is what is usually done in the internet like posting pictures in a forum.

I don't need to outline and detail every argument presented just to show my 'credibility' (lol for what) or be invovled in the user's standpoint to digest and comprehend such shit biased subjective material and I'm not here to engage in verbal gymnastics or run around in circles which you seem to like to do bringing back topics already moved on.

Last edited by shadowgrin on Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

It wasn't bothering me to the point of annoyance but more on amusement of such stupidity, my cancer statement was said in jest which is what is usually done in the internet like posting pictures in a forum.

I don't need to outline and detail every argument presented just to show my 'credibility' (lol for what) or be invovled in the user's standpoint to digest and comprehend such shit biased material and I'm not here to engage in verbal gymnastics or run around in circles which you seem to like to do bringing back topics already moved on.

So... why are you here? Want to talk about basketball?

What are your thoughts on the topics being discussed?

Or are you just looking to move on from it now that you haven't brought anything at all to it but injected yourself into it?

I'm was in this thread to read about objective basketball discussion only to be amusingly disappointed so I'm here now for Jackal's homo eroticism, air gordon's verbal gymnastics, NovU being vintage NovU, and shouting at clouds.

There was one statement about Rodman and Draymond so I offered my opinion regarding the matter in general, and was hopeful to see more posts like that. Only to be disappointed again to see a whiny post that name dropped me.

Last edited by shadowgrin on Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

I'm was in this thread to read about objective basketball discussion only to be amusingly disappointed so I'm here now for Jackal's homo eroticism, air gordon's verbal gymnastics, NovU being vintage NovU, and shouting at clouds.

Perfect, you belong.

Enjoy the show.

Welp, that escalated quickly.

Trust me, I've watched shit load of games, lived, died watching/analyzing/playing the game of basketball, I believe everyone here knows what kinda bball stupid I always have been. People also know what kind of stubborn arrogant ass I once was(perhaps I still am). And oh boi, time spent for the love of the basketball, it kinda fucked my life up. I believe that's the case of a lot of us here through decades(still, you don't see anyone here bragging about it, rather ashamed, we could have been anything if effort were put in elsewhere, lol idiots if you ask me). Kinda why you remind of young me. Funnily young me also used to hate fucking stats too.

That said, what you are implying in this thread has been in-depth discussed at much higher intellectual level. We've seen better and more conceivable argument from shit load of people with similar views to yours(but I will concede you have made some interesting points). A lot of them have gradually converted if not all, koberulz is one of them, a former true LBJ/stats hater. His argument was smart yet arrogant. I recommend you dig up a discussion between him and benji. There were many more discussions regarding the topic but those names come up off the top of my head. What frustrated me here was constant bragging and subjective views and ideas with completely closed mindset/approach to the discussion, which rather became a boring preaching and story of your superior bball life.

Stay around buddy. There's a lot of fun to be had: exchange ideas, learn, share views, etc. Keep open minded stance tho sometimes a bitch fight is inevitable(yet fun). We all do share love of basketball at the end of the day. No one is superior.

Trust me, I've watched shit load of games, lived, died watching/analyzing/playing the game of basketball, I believe everyone here knows what kinda bball stupid I always have been. People also know what kind of stubborn arrogant ass I once was(perhaps I still am). And oh boi, time spent for the love of the basketball, it kinda fucked my life up. I believe that's the case of a lot of us here through decades(still, you don't see anyone here bragging about it, rather ashamed, we could have been anything if effort were put in elsewhere, lol idiots if you ask me). Kinda why you remind of young me. Funnily young me also used to hate fucking stats too.

Correct, we spend a lot of time on basketball... a lot. I believe I am only a few years younger than you, but I don't regret the time I have spent watching/playing etc. I think it's a good escape, and a lot of people have worse hobbies. In regards to me reminding you of a younger you, we are not separated much by age, and I also don't hate stats. I think that stats can tell some stories, and are good in some cases, but that they don't even get close to telling the whole story. Which is why I believe far more in the eye test, because looking down at a page doesn't tell you about a players repertoire, or how he handles himself in and out of possessions, etc, watching said player however, does. I agree with your general statement here though, about life and whatnot.

That said, what you are implying in this thread has been in-depth discussed at much higher intellectual level. We've seen better and more conceivable argument from shit load of people with similar views to yours(but I will concede you have made some interesting points). A lot of them have gradually converted if not all, koberulz is one of them, a former true LBJ/stats hater. His argument was smart yet arrogant. I recommend you dig up a discussion between him and benji. There were many more discussions regarding the topic but those names come up off the top of my head. What frustrated me here was constant bragging and subjective views and ideas with completely closed mindset/approach to the discussion, which rather became a boring preaching and story of your superior bball life.

Whether it has been discussed at higher levels or not, it doesn't mean that it's not appropriate to discuss here or share opinions here. In regards to a higher intellectual level, that differs highly depending on who you are talking to, for example, millions consider Donald Trump a high intellectual, and millions think hes a low IQ buffoon. I am absolutely open to new ideas, admitting if I am wrong, etc. I am also open to seeing other users comments on here that are relevant to the topic, in this thread however, I am struggling to get anybody to talk about what the players actually show on the court, about the players repertoire/skills on the court, instead it's substituted for stats. In regards to converted, LeBron is 32 now, and my dislike for his basketball style and how he carries himself has only intensified over the years, it will not change now. I stick by all of my comments on him that I have made in this thread. I am not saying I have a superior bball life, I have stated that when I watch said players, this is what I see, and I give examples around that, including stats if asked for. By you saying "your superior bball life", you are making an assumption that I think my life around basketball is superior, even though all I am doing is stating my beliefs based on what I see from said players.

Stay around buddy. There's a lot of fun to be had: exchange ideas, learn, share views, etc. Keep open minded stance tho sometimes a bitch fight is inevitable(yet fun). We all do share love of basketball at the end of the day. No one is superior

I will, champ. I have been keeping an open minded stance, just weeding through all the nonsense, that's all. However, your last line here is nice.


However, I did answer your questions. I am asking that you please answer the one I had for you. It's a very fair question, yet basic.

If you watch a lot of a player, and you see that said player can rely on his jump shot, his post game, and his mid range game in general, and he uses that repetoire game in and game out, but you watch another player who cannot rely on those aspects of his game, is hesitant, and doesn't show efficiency in those skills, is that first player better than that second player at those skills?

I want to hear andrews 2cents lol

I thought the circle was closed, Dee. I think you dig this type of stuff since you're still asking about it

I do appreciate the effort overall. IMO it has gotten stale here before these discussions came up. Thanks

The dynamic duo. That put a smile on my face

I want to hear andrews 2cents lol

I thought the circle was closed, Dee. I think you dig this type of stuff since you're still asking about it

I do appreciate the effort overall. IMO it has gotten stale here before these discussions came up. Thanks

The dynamic duo. That put a smile on my face

I was still discussing the topic, but... if you guys are all set and want to move on, I can't stop you. Also, thanks, as much as things get testy, its still interesting.

And good, something positive came out of all this.

I can only speak for myself. Superman Batman and rodmaN. Good times

You ever get around to watching the migraine game?

I can only speak for myself. Superman Batman and rodmaN. Good times

You ever get around to watching the migraine game?

I havn't had the chance to re-watch it. Life has been pretty busy recently, I'm trying to find time.

I was indirectly answering your question because our understanding of the game differs and until this is sorted out, your question only leads to a moot point. Clearly there's a big gap between you and rest of group in understanding of what makes the team successful and not.

Basketball is a possession based game played in team context. Teams that create more possessions and using those possessions efficiently gives the team better chance at winning the game. Eye test often lies because yay points are awarded to a team/player that makes an extraordinary eye catching plays. In reality, it often times is a bad low percentage play. Player like LBJ/CP3 might not look as skillful as other legend but don't forget creating the highest percentage shot(either for himself or the team) is the most important skill regardless the way anyone plays. Does it really matter how points are scored? Acknowledging this simple yet beautiful fact makes much easier to elaborate any player/team's success/shortcomings on any team with any teammates.

That's not to discredit all the shortcoming of LBJ but every superstars have their shares of shameful moments. It's just that they got to the bigger stage much less than LBJ thus being less talked/exposed about. People think losing in the first round is better because it doesn't affect Finals record.

I was indirectly answering your question because our understanding of the game differs and until this is sorted out, your question only leads to a moot point. Clearly there's a big gap between you and rest of group in understanding of what makes the team successful and not.

Basketball is a possession based game played in team context. Teams that create more possessions and using those possessions efficiently gives the team better chance at winning the game. Eye test often lies because yay points are awarded to a team/player that makes an extraordinary eye catching plays. In reality, it often times is a bad low percentage play. Player like LBJ/CP3 might not look as skillful as other legend but don't forget creating the highest percentage shot(either for himself or the team) is the most important skill regardless the way anyone plays. Does it really matter how points are score? Acknowledging this simple yet beautiful fact makes much easier to elaborate any player/team's success/shortcomings on any team with any teammates.

That's not to discredit all the shortcoming of LBJ but every superstars have their shares of shameful moments. It's just that they got to the bigger stage much less than LBJ thus being less talked/exposed about. People think losing in the first round is better because it doesn't affect Finals record.

I appreciate the response.

your question only leads to a moot point

It doesn't though, I am talking about a basketball players skill at something, compared to another basketball players skill at something.

Eye test often lies because yay points are awarded to a team/player that makes an extraordinary eye catching plays. In reality, it often times is a bad low percentage play.

The eye test tells more truth than a piece of paper with letters/numbers on it. I'm not talking about extraordinary eye catching plays, I am talking about skill sets players have that they can rely on. Like post game, jump shooting, contested shooting, etc. If one player can clearly do that, and can rely on it game in and game out, and the other player cannot do that, or can't rely on it game in and game out, it's a skill set player one has that he can go to on any given play, that player two cannot. So while you think it's a moot point, I think it's very important.

Player like LBJ/CP3 might not look as skillful as other legend but don't forget creating the highest percentage shot(either for himself or the team) is the most important skill regardless the way anyone plays

I agree with this, that the most important thing to a team is the highest percentage shot taken. I also think that having a bigger skillset greatly aides in getting to these high percentage shots that you speak of. Whether it be the ability to get to a spot with a dribble, or the ability to contort your body to finish when contact is created (contortionists, of course), the ability to depend on a fadeaway or low post game, etc. When you see LeBron vanish in the second half of games, or pass out when he has clear room to shoot, or pass the ball to another player and stand there while they attack (Irving, Wade), and you see him do that over the course of his career, you see that he doesn't have confidence in his abilities to do those things when the game is on the line. And, when you watch the bulk of his work, you can see those things I am talking about. Are you stating that having those abilities (multiple skillsets that you can count on) are moot?

I also question the fire in his belly, for the fact that you see him not getting back on defense often, or looking to be bailed out by the refs (Him and Harden are the worst for this, Lou Williams is up there, though).

Also, do you guys have any thoughts on this? I posted this earlier.

LeBron stating after this series "I have no reason to look back at what I could of done, or should have done better for the team", and "It would be the same if you feel like you wrote the best column of your life, and somebody picked another one over you".

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LeBron praising himself, while not acknowledging what he COULD have absolutely done better to help his team through the first 4 games, which was not shoot under 40% from the field in the 4th quarter, not make key turnovers like he did, and not shy away from the moment (1-4 one fourth, 1-1 another), literally not showing aggressiveness. He also could have played better defense, as it was clear that he was not getting back on many plays, and not helping when players got into the lane. Greatest column ever, equating it to his greatest performance ever (That's what he was saying, I believe), what?

I'm seeing people Calling this the greatest finals performance, or stating that he was unstoppable, they cannot be looking at the whole picture. They are looking at his triple double average. His second half performances in games 1 through 4 were NOT good, they were not clutch, they were passive and incomplete. Greatest ever? Greatest finals performance of all time? Finals MVP discussed? How is a player who shoots sub 40% in the second half of 4 of the 5 games even being talked about like this, how is it even discussed as the greatest ever? What!?????

What games were you guys watching? The triple double average is the classic example of cherry picking stats while not actually watching what was going on. This team goes as Kyrie goes, Kyrie is who shines in the big moments, and he needs to have big games (Which is why they won game 4). We are witnessing an extremely watered down league, with people not valuing the true essence of great basketball or greatness in general.

The league is completely watered down right now, with most of teams having the same play style (No real post game, no teams really utilizing the mid range game). Its a launch a three or drive mentality. Players looking for fouls more than playing, most players shying away from challenges (Durant, I see you). I will continue watching the NBA, because I love basketball, but the league is weak in my opinion right now.

Do you guys think he should have been in the MVP conversation for the finals considering his second half woes?

Do you think that this is a flaw in his thought process/character, where he talks about how he couldn't have done anything different, when clearly he could have?

Do you think that the people who are claiming that he should be the MVP of the finals, and that he had the greatest finals ever (even people at ESPN, like Tom Haberstroh... ugh) are somehow unable to recognize his poor second half performances in games 1 through 4?

That's why air_gordie said there's a happy medium between stats and eye test. I also mentioned something along the lines of it's good for reviewing single/isolated game and instance. This is because memory is selective and often too conclusive. Nobody can watch 82 games of every team/games and remember/analyze every single fucking play. It's just impossible with human brain.

The eye test tells more truth than a piece of paper with letters/numbers on it. I'm not talking about extraordinary eye catching plays, I am talking about skill sets players have that they can rely on. Like post game, jump shooting, contested shooting, etc. If one player can clearly do that, and can rely on it game in and game out, and the other player cannot do that, or can't rely on it game in and game out, it's a skill set player one has that he can go to on any given play, that player two cannot. So while you think it's a moot point, I think it's very important.

Why the hell is it important? What is the purpose of the skillset?

It is to create a shot opportunity. Better skillset creates higher percentage shot opportunity. Better shot opportunity results in more points per possession hence giving a team better chance at winning. It doesn't matter if a player's skillset is physical tool, or great footwork. Neither it matters how many skills a player has. Only thing that's important for high volume usage players is to produce best possible scoring opportunity for each possession. Again, does it matter how basket is scored? Shaq scores 10 points using 4 possessions just by using athleticism, he's better big man than whoever that score 10 points using 5 possession with a same role because Shaq's team is better positioned to win the game and it gives a team extra possession to work with.

[Dee4Three]

That's why air_gordie said there's a happy medium between stats and eye test. I also mentioned something along the lines of it's good for reviewing single/isolated game and instance. This is because memory is selective and often too conclusive. Nobody can watch 82 games of every team/games and remember/analyze every single fucking play. It's just impossible with human brain.

The eye test tells more truth than a piece of paper with letters/numbers on it. I'm not talking about extraordinary eye catching plays, I am talking about skill sets players have that they can rely on. Like post game, jump shooting, contested shooting, etc. If one player can clearly do that, and can rely on it game in and game out, and the other player cannot do that, or can't rely on it game in and game out, it's a skill set player one has that he can go to on any given play, that player two cannot. So while you think it's a moot point, I think it's very important.

Why the hell is it important? What is the purpose of the skillset?

It is to create a shot opportunity. Better skillset creates higher percentage shot opportunity. Better shot opportunity results in more points per possession hence giving a team better chance at winning. It doesn't matter if a player's skillset is physical tool, or great footwork. Neither it matters how many skills a player has. Only thing that's important for high volume usage players is to produce best possible scoring opportunity for each possession. Again, does it matter how basket is scored? Shaq scores 10 points using 4 possessions just by using athleticism, he's better big man than whoever that score 10 points using 5 possession with a same role because Shaq's team is better positioned to win the game and it gives a team extra possession to work with.

The skillset does matter, we will not agree.

In my opinion, Jordan possibly averages 45 PPG in today's NBA with his offensive skillset, and grabs 2 or 3 more boards and assists a game (if you want to rope stats into it), because he was dominating players in a more physical era of basketball with that skillset, with less babying. That pass out to Korver? That's an easy Jordan pull up from 8 feet (because he can rely on it, he has that skill), the passes LeBron makes to a player on the wing and let's them go one on one, would be Jordan taking his man one on one. The skillset absolutely matters, if he had those skills and a killer instinct, he wouldn't have attempted 1 FG and 4 FGS in the 4th quarter of two NBA Finals games when his team needed points.

Same with Kobe, he had that skillset, that mindset.

LeBron has the strength and athleticism to bulldoze to the hoop (which you notice he doesn't and can't down the stretch of big games... can't mentally do it maybe?), he has an average three point shot, an average or below mid range game, no real post game, and hes a good passer. He gets most of his points by bulldozing through the paint (many with his off arm) to score, he cries when he doesn't get calls, and he gets fastbreak dunks. Defensively, he doesnt get back a lot (which leads to said fastbreak dunks) and looks like he's not even trying sometimes (ah lah James Harden). In my opinion, he is the benefactor of a completely watered down, small, wimpy NBA.

Last edited by Dee4Three on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

Yes, it matters in hypothetical debates.

with less babying.

I do not welcome this kind of wild claims. Jordan was a poster boy for league's favoritism.




This is my last post for the thread, too tired too old. Wish benji was here.

The fact that you said "What is the purpose of the skillset" is a little alarming to me.....