Best Guard

[-BHZMAFIA-]

Since it's so obvious...

Magic Johnson.

[j.23]

Euy?

kobe:
- 6 time all star
- all defensive first team selection (i don't know how many times but probably around 3, 4.. correct me if im wrong
- all nba first team
- all nba second team
- all star game mvp
- holds the all time nba record for 3 pt fg made - 12/18
- averaging more than 24 pts, 5 rebounds, 5 assists the last 4 seasons
- laker record of 42 players by halftime

and like i said, unlike the players that you and amphatoast mentioned, kobe already has done a lot and he's shown that he definately has the potential to be even greater

[Drex]

He's brought them back countless times from 20+ down to win the game.

Shaq would choke in the fourth quarter with his "missed" free throws (in every game). So who was the other option? KOBE!!! That's right ... and he would deliver almost every night.

That's not fair on Shaq. He doesn't choke. He just doesn't have the ability to make FT's on a consistent basis. But, who kept the Lakers in a close game? That's right, Shaq did. Kobe has an amazing ability to hit the clutch shots, but he wasn't the main option during the whole game.

And who could forget the 9 straight games with 40+ points??? Who could forget the 45+ points agains the Queens in the playoffs back in 2001 and 2002.

I could...well, I did.
LOL, call me a hater now.

[twolvezfanfoever]

Magic
Mr. Clutch very close though

[PRoPuLsiOnDJ]

That's not fair on Shaq. He doesn't choke. He just doesn't have the ability to make FT's on a consistent basis. But, who kept the Lakers in a close game? That's right, Shaq did. Kobe has an amazing ability to hit the clutch shots, but he wasn't the main option during the whole game.

Yeah he does choke ... he's been choking in the 4th quarter all his career.

If you remember back in 2000, he couldn't hit free throws and I'm sure

you've heard about the "hack-a-shaq" option that Portland used to get back

in the series after they fell behind 3 games to 1. And this past year, who

brought the lakers back in the SA series? KOBE! Remember games 3, 4,

5, and 6??? And when did I say Kobe was the first option on the team????

He did all this without being the first option. Now that he is the first option,

he's gonna be only deadlier. And I hear all this talk about Kobe being

selfish. What about Shaq???? Who demands the ball every time down the

floor? Who complains about his teammates lack of heart at the end of

games when he himself finds it "impossible" to get back on D. Look at

what happened in Detroit? I think that series speaks for itself. Why did the

Lakers lose? Because of Shaq's big fat ass not being able to run because

he was not able to "get in shape" at anytime during the season. So who

is responsible for most of the Lakers success this past year? Of course it's

Kobe Bryant. He's the one that had to fight so much adversity (the trial,

the media hating on him, the jetlag, the emotional turmoil, the thought

about whether he'll go to jail for the rest of his life or not). And yet, he

still performed at a level higher than anyone in the game; In all of sports.

He is the most clutch player alive today.

[Fresh8]

Well- I cant really say Kobe is the best guard in Lakers history- definately best 2 so far. He hasnt even finished his career- as a fan of his I know he will do well...but to what extent? We'll just have to wait and see but at the moment Magic is still better than Kobe.

I'm not dissing Kobe but does, as Gary says, taking the ball and trying to go 1-on-5 and winning games count when he has 4 other teammates...last season 2 or 3 good teammates to pass to on the court?

Do you think winning games by ignoring teammates or winning games helping temmates is a more amazing feat?

[PRoPuLsiOnDJ]

Well- I cant really say Kobe is the best guard in Lakers history- definately best 2 so far. He hasnt even finished his career- as a fan of his I know he will do well...but to what extent? We'll just have to wait and see but at the moment Magic is still better than Kobe.

I'm not dissing Kobe but does, as Gary says, taking the ball and trying to go 1-on-5 and winning games count when he has 4 other teammates...last season 2 or 3 good teammates to pass to on the court?

Do you think winning games by ignoring teammates or winning games helping temmates is a more amazing feat?

where were those teammates in the finals last year??? He did pass the ball ... but eventually, the best option for the lakers was for him to shoot anytime he wanted ... cuz nobody else was able to score. And speaking about GP, he missed every wide open three he was given in the finals. And he got a lot of good looks! The only guy who had anything going was Kobe. Well Shaq too .... but he was too lazy on D. He was too lazy run the floor ... and that is one of the main reasons we lost to Detroit ... the lack of transition defense.

[Alcoholic]

To be honest I still think GP is good, it's just he can't adjust. I mean, he avg about 14 points during the season. My reason on this: He played 82 games while everyone else was being injured, so it was kind of like 'his' team again.. if they gave GP the ball things could happen..

[ATTENTIONWHORE]

IMO (and stats prolly)...Gary Payton had his best seasons in the 1990's...playing alongside Kemp...many good seasons they did indeed have...

[GloveGuy]

As much as I'd like to talk about Gary Payton and his role on the Lakers here, I think we should stay on topic.

Propulsion, all of your opinions on this year's Finals are irrelevant and you know why? Kobe sucked too! The Lakers as a team lost. The only actual bright spot in that series was Luke Walton.

Kobe has all the talent in the world and could POTENTIALLY be better than Magic Johnson. But Magic knew when it was time to give it to Kareem, when it was time to give it to Worthy. Kobe has no faith in his teammates or their skills unless it's him who's setting them up.

And GP had the right to complain about Kobe. During that period, all Kobe wanted to do was be the playmaker on the team instead of relying and trusting his point guard -- who was just as capable, most likely more capable, in getting his teammates the ball.

No one's denying Kobe's talent or his drive to win. But he can't make his teammates better. Magic could.

[magius]

shaq = league mvp, shaq = 3 time playoff mvp. those are the only individual trophies that carry any merit in my book save maybe dpoy when judging GREAT players (their are many very good players, but they of course, havent acquired the above, and thus are not great, plain and simple). these (mvps and dpoy) are more important than scoring records, more important than stats, more important than miscellaneous "nice looking-mean nothing" stats, though of course they often go hand in hand, one is negligible. kobe = 0 mvp of any kind save the joke called an "all star" game. please. you know, Thats almost like some kind of metaphor or something....... anyway, shaq = MORE VALUABLE ALWAYS. get it through head please. Ask any gm who they would draft as a rookie considering both were in the same rookie class and their age differential were closer (18-21). no one would even hestiate. SHAQ!!!! shaq vs hakeem? maybe. shaq vs jordan? maybe. shaq vs magic? maybe. shaq vs duncan? maybe. shaq vs kobe? Thats like lobster vs cowshit.

now, lets keep on topic. magic - west - kobe. this is probably how it should end up in the end, though a correct educated guess if i were trying to deduce the general publics opinion would be that kobe will probably surpass west on the list because he is more "current", i think that west was more of an anamoly at his time and impacted the game for guards in a more substantial way than kobe will ever dream of doing, and thus i think west should be above him, but that is my own opinion and i respect that others will obviously feel differently and i understand why.

[PRoPuLsiOnDJ]

As much as I'd like to talk about Gary Payton and his role on the Lakers here, I think we should stay on topic.

Propulsion, all of your opinions on this year's Finals are irrelevant and you know why? Kobe sucked too! The Lakers as a team lost. The only actual bright spot in that series was Luke Walton.

Kobe has all the talent in the world and could POTENTIALLY be better than Magic Johnson. But Magic knew when it was time to give it to Kareem, when it was time to give it to Worthy. Kobe has no faith in his teammates or their skills unless it's him who's setting them up.

And GP had the right to complain about Kobe. During that period, all Kobe wanted to do was be the playmaker on the team instead of relying and trusting his point guard -- who was just as capable, most likely more capable, in getting his teammates the ball.

No one's denying Kobe's talent or his drive to win. But he can't make his teammates better. Magic could.

Kobe did try to pass the ball in the finals. But the rest of the "role" players coudn't do anything. They couldn't hit wide open shots. Why don't you ask Gary Payton yourself??? He was terrible in the finals. So the best option for the Lakers was for Kobe to shoot. Yeah, they let Shaq score also, but he can't do it when it counts. If it wasn't for Kobe in game 2, the lakers would have been swept in the finals.

Ok now for the comparison between Kobe and Magic. If Kobe had players like Worthy and Scott on his team, then of course Lakers would have won the championship. Rewind back to three years ago when they had Horry, a healthy Fox, Harper, Shaw, Fisher. In 2002, It was Kobe's pass to Horry in the waning seconds against Portland that won the game for the Lakers. In the WCF against the Queens, it was Kobe who brought the Lakers back from behind. My point is that during the championship years, the Lakers always had "role" players. They also had them this year, but nobody stepped up in the finals. And a lot of that credit goes to the Detroit defense. If Kobe was playing in Magic's time, everything would have been different. The idea of "tough defense" didn't even exist back then. Kobe would have a helluva easy time if he was playing in Magic's era. But like I said before, I'm not taking anything away from Magic. It is very close between him and Kobe, but Kobe wins this argument simply because of his clutchness. He's saved the lakers countless times from destruction.

[Andrew]

The idea of "tough defense" didn't even exist back then. Kobe would have a helluva easy time if he was playing in Magic's era. But like I said before, I'm not taking anything away from Magic. It is very close between him and Kobe, but Kobe wins this argument simply because of his clutchness. He's saved the lakers countless times from destruction.

There was tough defense back in the 80s, I'm not sure why so many people believe otherwise. A greater number of good centres and shotblockers and in the Pistons more brutal defense than any team plays today.

[eli]

why you didnt add to your pool oscar robertson???

[Andrew]

It's a Lakers-only poll.

[Micchy_boy]

why you didnt add to your pool oscar robertson???

he played for lakers???

[Andrew]

No, he played for the Royals and the Bucks.

[GloveGuy]

Kobe did try to pass the ball in the finals. But the rest of the "role" players coudn't do anything. They couldn't hit wide open shots. Why don't you ask Gary Payton yourself??? He was terrible in the finals. So the best option for the Lakers was for Kobe to shoot. Yeah, they let Shaq score also, but he can't do it when it counts. If it wasn't for Kobe in game 2, the lakers would have been swept in the finals.

Kobe sucked too! The Lakers as a whole sucked! I really don't know why we're discussing this since we all know that Kobe had humongous trouble during that series. And yes, Kobe did make that three but you seem to forget who converted on the three-point play to bring the Lakers within three.

If Kobe had players like Worthy and Scott on his team, then of course Lakers would have won the championship.

He had Shaquille O'Neal. He had Gary Payton. Karl Malone. This team was supposed to break records last year. They had enough talent in their starting lineup to make an all-star team.

The idea of "tough defense" didn't even exist back then. Kobe would have a helluva easy time if he was playing in Magic's era. But like I said before, I'm not taking anything away from Magic.

Tough defense didn't exist? It's actually the other way around. Nowadays, you can barely touch a guy, making defense tougher to play. If I remember correctly, you could hand-check your opponent to keep him with you back in the 80s. The Detroit Pistons of now don't compare to the Bad Boy Pistons of the 80s. You wanna see dirty? You wanna see tough? Go watch a tape of one of their games and then come back and tell me that "tough defense" didn't exist.

[j.23]

Tough defense didn't exist? It's actually the other way around. Nowadays, you can barely touch a guy, making defense tougher to play. If I remember correctly, you could hand-check your opponent to keep him with you back in the 80s. The Detroit Pistons of now don't compare to the Bad Boy Pistons of the 80s. You wanna see dirty? You wanna see tough? Go watch a tape of one of their games and then come back and tell me that "tough defense" didn't exist.

took the words right out of my mouth.. you can also try watching the knicks of the early 90's w/ xavier mcdaniel, john starks, pat ewing playing the bulls.. it was unbelievable.. there was even one play where john starks hit like a clothesline on scottie pippen, it was actually quite funny but yeah

[Jackal]

look what kobe has been able to achieve already individually

Thank you for summing up all his achievements, but the "euy" was really meant for the individually...? No, no one does anything in the game of basketball individually.

Shaq would choke in the fourth quarter with his "missed" free throws (in every game). So who was the other option? KOBE!!! That's right ... and he would deliver almost every night.

In a the end of a close game in the final quarter, yes...then I want the ball in Kobe's hands. Choking? How so? Please elaborate and spare me the bullshit of free-throws. Since Wilt wasn't the best free-throw shooter, he's a choker? Your logic is flawed in too many ways to actually explain them all.

Kobe would deliver on almost every night? Yeah, besides when he was the main focus of attention. Then he just hoisted shit he pulled right out of his ass.

Oh, if you're not aware of what I'm talking about, it's the Finals.

He's brought them back countless times from 20+ down to win the game.

Alone? Since when? I thought he had Shaq along side him all that time. Silly me..

Yeah he does choke ... he's been choking in the 4th quarter all his career.

According to your logic...Wilt was a BIG-TIME choker.

Seriously, grow up.

If you remember back in 2000, he couldn't hit free throws and I'm sure you've heard about the "hack-a-shaq" option that Portland used to get back in the series after they fell behind 3 games to 1.

You don't have to hit the enter button that many times.

Who hasn't heard of hack a shaq? It's old & it's known that teams use it.
You forget to mention the fact that despite him being hacked away to glory, he still manages to drop 20 points a game. Wow, amazing eh? One word...unstoppable. Say he isn't, I dare you.

And this past year, who brought the lakers back in the SA series? KOBE! Remember games 3, 4, 5, and 6???

Remember the other players who actually contributed? Remember the Finals? Remember what happens when the opposing team's defense is focused on Bryant? No? Ok, I'll help refresh your memory:

Kobe Bryant shot a combined 43 of 113. That's a mere 38%. Remember?
That's what you get when the defense shifts from Shaq to Kobe. Shit.

Remember that? No? Hmm, you must be in denial.

And when did I say Kobe was the first option on the team????

You didn't, the way you post about him leads us to believe you take him to be option numero uno or atleast want him to be. I don't think anyone said you said Kobe was option # one, well..they could've but I'm too lazy to actually look. That would mean reading your posts with a gazillion enters in it again.

He did all this without being the first option. Now that he is the first option, he's gonna be only deadlier.

No, he did that because he wasn't the first option. Opposing teams came into the game trying to slow down Shaq, not Kobe. Again, take a look at the Finals, Larry Brown let Shaq do whatever he want, pfff...he let Corliss Williamson guard Shaq, what does that tell you? They are trying to stop him? No, they were stopping Kobe. When they try to stop Shaq, they fail + they lose. If you don't believe this, go back to the three-peat years.

I'll say it again, perhaps by repeating the obvious, it'll stick in your brains. When Shaq is defensive priority number one, he still manages to drop 25 & 10. When Kobe is defensive priority number one, he will manage to drop 20, even if it takes 25 shots. Who cares, right?

Point is, when Kobe is defensive priority numero uno, he has no clue what to do. He just stinks it up. When Shaq is defensive priority numero uno, they are more likely to win, Shaq actually knows when to pass. Kobe? He passes when he has no where to go, clocks winding down, someone has to shoot, right? So yeah, if he passes it to Fisher with 3 on the clock, and Fisher knocks down the shot, he gets the assist. Yay!

And I hear all this talk about Kobe being selfish. What about Shaq???? Who demands the ball every time down the floor?

Normal people (non Kobe fans that is) would actually see this as a good thing. Let's make it simple since you're not getting this through your skull:

Give Shaq ball = win.
Give Kobe wall = smaller chance to win.

Why won't Shaq want the ball? He's got a 50 % chance of actually making the shot. Kobe however, a mere 40%. Who would you choose? It's pretty obvious Phil Jackson (remember him? coached that dude named MJ? Remember? No? Probably too young, anywho...he's this really totally awesome coach, you know? Nah?... ) Anywho, Phil was pretty sure he wanted the ball in Shaq's hands, meh..ofcourse that didn't suit Mr. Bryant, thus the tantrums. Jackson left for many reasons, the biggest probably being Kobe's ego.

Who complains about his teammates lack of heart at the end of games when he himself finds it "impossible" to get back on D.

That comment was made once or twice I think. Did you watch the games following those comments? No? Well, they won. Wowie!!

Such comments are made to fire up the team. It's part of basketball, just as not playing alone is.

he himself finds it "impossible" to get back on D.

Why's the impossible in quotations? Did you take that out of an article? Impossible? Nah, slower? Yes. Take into consideration age etc.

MJ on the Bulls team wasn't the same MJ on the Wizards team. Ofcourse, seeing the flashes of the old MJ is what everyone gathered around to watch.

what happened in Detroit? I think that series speaks for itself.

Yeps, showed the people that don't watch with blind love that everyone just sucked besides Shaq.

I can't comprehend why you're downplaying 26.6 points per game, 10.8 rebounds per game & 1.6 assists per game against the league's best defensive team. Ask me and I'd say that's a bit strange.

Why did the Lakers lose? Because of Shaq's big fat ass not being able to run because he was not able to "get in shape" at anytime during the season.

Hmm no, Shaq was not able to get back on defense during the whole year, yet they made the playoffs? Since they lost because he's not in shape & can't run back on defense, shouldn't they like lose every game?

No, they lost the Finals because Kobe was shut down. Completely.

You're arguments are flawed.

So who is responsible for most of the Lakers success this past year? Of course it's Kobe Bryant.

Buhull fucking shit. That's all I want to say. Success doesn't come by hoisting up shots. Success comes by playing a team game. Saying Bryant was the saviour of the team is bullshit. If I can say Shaq sucked in games, why is that so impossible for you guys to do? I'm most biased when it comes to Shaq, but I can find you posts where I've said Shaq sucked in that game.

Success comes from a team. Failure comes from a team. No one man is to blame. I don't blame Bryant for the Finals, everyone sucked. Don't act as if Kobe was the saving grace.

He's the one that had to fight so much adversity (the trial, the media hating on him, the jetlag, the emotional turmoil, the thought about whether he'll go to jail for the rest of his life or not).

The trial? Could've prevented that if he actually kept his dick in his pants, no?

Media hating on him? Where? When? What? Give me some of what ever it is you are smoking.

The jetlag? Every NBA player suffers from jetlag? What the fuck?

Emotional turmoil? Again, had he kept his dick in his pants, no problems would have arised. He got himself into trouble, why pity him?

The thought of spending his life in prison? Hell yeah, that thought would make me play better too. Why are you using it as a positive thing though?
Again I come back to that same old routine..."had he kept his dick in his pants, he wouldn't be in this situation."

And yet, he still performed at a level higher than anyone in the game; In all of sports.

Bullshit, I saw Hu Wang kick ass in the Sumo Wrestling contest, he went un-beaten. I say he was on a higher level than Kobe.

He is the most clutch player alive today.

Does it count if he's in prison?

where were those teammates in the finals last year???

Wait, you're making these comments without watching the game? Anyways, since no one answered, they were right there with him, on the court.
You must have five players on the court to play. Aren't you glad I helped you out of that question? Yay for me.

He did pass the ball ...

To the basket...

the best option for the lakers was for him to shoot anytime he wanted ... cuz nobody else was able to score.

*cough* Remember that big oompa loompa lump of corruption named Shaquille O'Neal? No? He's the one that dropped 36 & 20 in game four? Remember? No? No wonder you're making these comments.

The only guy who had anything going was Kobe.

Well Shaq too .... but he was too lazy on D.

You add the "well Shaq" too as if he was just playing mediocre basketball and Kobe was shining.

You mentioned Shaq was too lazy on defense but I'm surprised at the fact that you failed to mention Bryant stunk it up? How'd that happen? Hmm, confusing. What say folks?

and that is one of the main reasons we lost to Detroit ... the lack of transition defense.

Maybe, the other "main" reasons could be, Malone sitting out, Payton stinking it up, Bryant not able to hit a shot. (Didn't shy away from trying though...) Both Prince & Hamilton torching Bryant. His defense was non-exsistant. Pff, since I'm getting the chance, how in heavens name can a person that's been named to the All NBA Defensive first team, get torched by Cutino Mobley?
A more puzzling question, how come you guys can never point out bad stuff about Bryant? I'm left here doing it all alone and I'm this Bryant hater?
Meh, dirty job, but someones gotta do it. (Plus it's mucho fun making you guys look like morons. )

Kobe did try to pass the ball in the finals. But the rest of the "role" players coudn't do anything.

I wouldn't be able to do much either if the clock is winding down and you've got no choice to hoist a shot since you've got the ball with 3 seconds remaining.

Why don't you ask Gary Payton yourself???

Do you have his number for me? I lost the paper on which he wrote his number.

So the best option for the Lakers was for Kobe to shoot.

According to who? You + the other Kobe fans? Nah, he wasn't the best option. Shaq was.

Yeah, they let Shaq score also

Seriously, you keep throwing in Shaq's name as if he's some mediocre type role player.

but he can't do it when it counts.

I thought scoring counts for the whole game? If Shaq didn't score, would the game even be close?

If it wasn't for Kobe in game 2, the lakers would have been swept in the finals.

If it wasn't for Shaq's 26.6 points a game, Kobe would have no chance in hell to make the tying three pointer. Stuff that.

My point is that during the championship years, the Lakers always had "role" players. They also had them this year, but nobody stepped up in the finals.

Your point sucks. All those other years Kobe wasn't the numero uno defensive priority, get it thru your fat skull.

The idea of "tough defense" didn't even exist back then. Kobe would have a helluva easy time if he was playing in Magic's era.

Please, do us and everyone around you a favour:

Eat shit and die.

(Ok, Ok, that was inappropriate. Let me explain, defense was much tighter back then then it is at the moment. Please spare me that crap. Oh, you don't have to die anymore.)

It is very close between him and Kobe, but Kobe wins this argument simply because of his clutchness. He's saved the lakers countless times from destruction.

Hmm, your defense for Bryant sucks, better hope he's got a better defense at his trial.

Bryant hasn't done jack-shit alone. Actually better put, he hasn't done jack shit whilst being the opposing teams defensive priority. Magic has, he wins. As simple as that.

Magic wasn't a clutch player? He hasn't saved the Lakers from defeat? Right. Lakers-Boston. Go watch. (Perhaps if you find some shit, eat it & die.)

**diclaimer** I in no way think Kobe sucks. Nor am I a "Kobe Hater", I just like pissing people off. (Kobe fans in paticuliar, they give me most reason to do so. ) **disclaimer**

Wow, that was fun, once again?

[air gordon]

lol organizations win championships

[Jackal]

lol organizations win championships

Meh, too bad LA's management stunk it up since West left.

[Andrew]

took the words right out of my mouth.. you can also try watching the knicks of the early 90's w/ xavier mcdaniel, john starks, pat ewing playing the bulls.. it was unbelievable.. there was even one play where john starks hit like a clothesline on scottie pippen, it was actually quite funny but yeah

Don't forget Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason.

[FanOfAll]

Just curious, why does Kobe have more votes than West?

[Andrew]

West remains very underrated as a player. The losses in the NBA Finals (only one title in nine appearances) are most likely responsible for that.