2013 Rookies Thread

[Spree#8]

"MCW - DNP (vagina cramps)" something like that?

Who cares about some vagina cramps? There are ping pong balls at stake here.

Seriously though, the impact this kid has already is outstanding. When he's playing, Philadelphia remains somewhat competitive even now, when their hot start is a distant memory. Without MCW, they're unbearably bad and get blown out by everybody. If he was out for the entire season, the Bobcats' worst record ever would probably be in danger. The MCW-less losing streak helped the pottery odds, but what sucks is Thad - the only one of our "big" 3 that I'd like to keep - got pissed about the tank and has reportedly requested a trade weeks ago.

[_Steve_]

I like what I've seen from MCW until now. It would be really interesting to see how Noel will mesh with that group. I heard the '76ers are working to bring him back ASAP.

[Spree#8]

It would be really interesting to see how Noel will mesh with that group. I heard the '76ers are working to bring him back ASAP.

That's an overstatement, but they're saying that Noel playing later on in the season is a possibility after saying he would probably sit the year out a few months ago. The Sixers definitely want to be careful with him (and tank), but him starting to see minutes and getting adjusted to the NBA game is probably for the best when his knee is OK. I think Noel plays about 15-20 games towards the end of the season.

[NovU]

but what sucks is Thad - the only one of our "big" 3 that I'd like to keep - got pissed about the tank and has reportedly requested a trade weeks ago.

Did you also read about what he said about 'playing with young players' in his interview? So I also assumed that he was asking out as he was disgruntled with losing season and media said that he asked for a trade week ago but it looks like none of it really happened, at least according to Thad himself.

76ers forward Thaddeus Young, the subject of trade rumors, said Friday he has not asked the team to deal him.

Speaking after the morning shootaround for Friday night’s Brooklyn game, Young made light of an Internet report that said he and his agent, Jim Tanner, submitted a formal trade request to Sixers general manager Sam Hinkie weeks ago.

“I just think it’s all funny how it’s sources that say I asked to be traded,” Young said.

But he did say that Tanner had a wide-ranging conversation with Hinkie that included potential trade talks and rumors involving him.

I'm thinking this entire hoax was media overreacting once again. The management obviously would be willing to pull the trade at the right price, but it don't sound like it was Thad that's playing Asik and forcing himself out of the city.

[Spree#8]

Thad is not the kind of guy who would want to go public with this. The report says he made a formal trade request to Hinkie several weeks ago. Tough to say why it all would be leaking now of all times though.

The fact he denied it when confronted by the media means nothing. Surely he realizes that openly saying he wants out would completely screw up his trade value and any leverage the Sixers could have in possible trade talks.

Anyway, I really hope it's all a bunch of bullshit but I'm not optimistic. Thad is 25 years old, about to enter his prime and I'm not surprised if he doesn't want to spend his best years on a tanking team - I don't expect Philly to become respectable again until at least 2 years from now, if not more. Young will always be a hustler, smart defender and sneaky finisher at the rim, but his athleticism won't be there for him forever.

Like I said previously though, I'm hoping he stays simply because he's the only likable guy on this team aside from MCW now that Iguodala and Holiday are gone. Of course, there's also his on-court contributions being very useful when this team is finally trying to win.

[NovU]

Nate Wolters is coming around big time. Carter-Williams has slowed down, needs to shoot better. Bennett is still an inconsistent bum, but had 1 double double. Alex Len is a disappointment. Trey Burke is ok. Noel still zero minutes for the season. Otto Porter is looking like a role player at his best. McCollum is ok. Oladipo it is for the ROY so far?

2013 draft class looking weak.

[Spree#8]

MCW has slowed down (one of his more productive games lately came last night against Burke and the Jazz), but I don't know what do you even say about Burke then. In the 18 games this calendar year, he's shooting 33% FG. Oladipo hasn't been that impressive either. His shooting isn't significantly better and he's a turnover machine (I guess it's not his fault they're making him play PG, but the fact remains). Both of them project nicely on the defensive end and both are poor scorers right now, but MCW is a much better ball handler and can become a very good facilitator (decent already), which matters a lot if the Oladipo PG experiment is to be continued. MCW's percentages don't worry me that much yet, because he has no offensive talent around him and is often forced into taking horrible shots off the dribble because somebody has to.

[NovU]

I only said Trey Burke is 'ok' mostly because I had no expectations from him. The team has been pretty much close to winless without him this season. It don't mean he's been good or better than MCW/Oladipo.

Between MCW and Oladipo, I gave Oladipo a nod only because he's played a full season. Otherwise MCW's raw stats would get him a ROY unanimously. Actually it could go either way I don't care much.

Having said that, MCW does have potential. With Nerlens Noel + another high pick this season, PHI might develop a nice core in a near future. Looks like allstar Jrue won't be missed at all after all.

[Spree#8]

With Nerlens Noel + another high pick this season, PHI might develop a nice core in a near future. Looks like allstar Jrue won't be missed at all after all.

That's jumping the gun a bit. While I do like MCW, he isn't half the shooter Jrue is and it's doubtful he'll ever be, though I do expect him to improve in that area. Jumpshot is a pretty damn important skill for a point guard. He's also had problems finishing at the rim. Sixers are 1-11 without him, so clearly he is having a positive impact as the primary ball handler and distributor, but there's room to grow there as well - mostly with decision making that will probably come along with some NBA experience. Carter-Williams also has tremendous potential on defense with his length and quickness, he can be a very smothering on-ball defender and he sometimes forces opposing PGs into bad shooting nights. The thing is, most of those things could be said about Holiday as well and we still don't have much of a clue what it is that we have in Noel. Until I see him in game action, I'll still remain skeptical - due to concerns about his game as the knee appears to be doing just fine in that recent video of him dunking and making hooks against Greg Foster.

[NovU]

Jumpshot is a pretty damn important skill for a point guard.

Rondo does fine. He can't even shoot a freethrow yet he's been a star PG in this league.

Problem with Jrue is that he hasn't developed much. He's into his 5th season and he still stinks. Especially at the price he got away, I bet that PHI is never going to miss him.

MCW right now reminds me of kinda poor man's Ricky Rubio. Both have horrendous shooting efficiency yet they're potential trip-double threat. And both are pretty good on D.

Meh, who knows how he will turn out to be, but I see potential. As for the notion that MCW being a positive influence, it's probably because Wroten isn't a natural facilitator. Spencer Hawes's game absolutely suffered without MCW.

[shadowgrin]

Rondo can shoot from midrange if needed and he's decent at it, as long as it's not from the baseline.
47% - 53% at midrange away from the baseline last season? Yes please!

[Spree#8]

Rondo does fine. He can't even shoot a freethrow yet he's been a star PG in this league.

Depends on what you mean by "star". Great point guards don't lead below average (sometimes even bottom 5!) offenses with multiple future HOFs on the roster providing great spacing and a lot of options on offense - and while Allen, Pierce and Garnett were all past their primes, they were still extremely capable back then.

Great point guards tend to be more creative on the offensive end than dribbling the ball in one place for 20 seconds of the shot clock and then passing off to somebody for a contested 20-footer as the shot clock expires (could be more on Rivers than on Rondo, but Rivers' Clippers have a top3 offense this year). Great point guards don't pass up wide open layups to pass out for a contested jumper because ASSISTS.

Have you seen how most teams "defend" Rondo? By completely ignoring him, daring him to shoot and using his defender to help out somewhere else. That's how the Sixers took the series against the Celtics to 7 games in 2012 even though almost everybody predicted they'd be swept or luckily steal one game at home. Star Rondo was being disrespected by his defender (usually Turner, Jrue was chasing Ray Allen around screens) to double Pierce or Garnett whenever one of them got anywhere near the ball. Seeing that stuff and realizing Rondo - for the most part - couldn't do anything at all to punish Philly for that really opens your eyes.

Rondo can shoot from midrange if needed and he's decent at it, as long as it's not from the baseline.
47% - 53% at midrange away from the baseline last season? Yes please!

That would be because of the Rondo treatment I described above. You give an actual good shooter a mile of free space and he probably shoots like 80% easily.

Anyway, last season his -3.7 offensive on/off, the Celtics stinking and being one of the bigger disappointments of the season before his injury (below .500 in the East) and suddenly going on a 7-game winning streak immediately after losing their "superstar" should give you something to think about. A textbook example of how you can have pretty good boxscore stats without actually having much of a positive impact on your team. A polar opposite of someone like, say, Iguodala.

This season, so far, he's shooting 38% from deep and has already made more threes in 10 games than in the entire 2010/11 or 2011/12 season. If he really has improved his stroke (too early to definitively say), stops being an assist whore and starts to get his without thinking twice whenever the defense is daring him to, maybe he'll be a star in terms of impact. Up to this point, he's only been a star in terms of APG that didn't elevate the offense of his teams in the slightest.

Problem with Jrue is that he hasn't developed much. He's into his 5th season and he still stinks. Especially at the price he got away, I bet that PHI is never going to miss him.

Don't watch the Pelicans much, but the pieces they have don't seem to fit each other at all, they've had injury problems all season and Monty Williams is apparently a younger version of Doug Collins when it comes to offensive philosophy. I wouldn't be that quick to say Jrue stinks and remember that MCW is only a year younger, despite coming into the league 4 years later.

MCW right now reminds me of kinda poor man's Ricky Rubio. Both have horrendous shooting efficiency yet they're potential trip-double threat. And both are pretty good on D.

Not a bad comparison, with MCW obviously having more freedom on offense but also less talent around him.

As for the notion that MCW being a positive influence, it's probably because Wroten isn't a natural facilitator. Spencer Hawes's game absolutely suffered without MCW.

Wroten isn't much of natural anything, to be honest. He's quick as hell and gets to the rim at will, but he can't finish or loses the ball in the process while his perimeter shot is hilariously terrible. The biggest problem when MCW is out is that Wroten plays 30+ minutes and the backup point guard becomes some combination of Evan Turner, Lorenzo Brown and Elliot Williams and the results are... very predictable.

[shadowgrin]

Rondo can shoot from midrange if needed and he's decent at it, as long as it's not from the baseline.
47% - 53% at midrange away from the baseline last season? Yes please!

That would be because of the Rondo treatment I described above. You give an actual good shooter a mile of free space and he probably shoots like 80% easily.

Still doesn't change the fact that Rondo has (had?) a jumpshot in those areas and has above average FG% doing it.

[NovU]

Rondo's obvious strength isn't in shooting. (but he can knock down open shots much like Rubio fans claim that he's actually a good shooter, lol) But shooting isn't what made Rondo great in the first place anyway. Rondo's excellent at penetration, finishing around the rim, defense, and getting dimes. That's how he was able to become one of the top 2-5 pg (possibly #1 when CP3 was injured most of season) when he was healthy.

Don't watch the Pelicans much, but the pieces they have don't seem to fit each other at all, they've had injury problems all season and Monty Williams is apparently a younger version of Doug Collins when it comes to offensive philosophy. I wouldn't be that quick to say Jrue stinks and remember that MCW is only a year younger, despite coming into the league 4 years later.

'Pieces don't fit together' - this is too oft used excuse for the sucky individual performance. But players like Anthony Davis/Ryan Anderson excels regardless the players that surround him. There's no justification for Jrue's suckiness in his development so far in his career. He was an all star ffs which is a wonder btw.

[Spree#8]

Rondo's obvious strength isn't in shooting. (but he can knock down open shots much like Rubio fans claim that he's actually a good shooter, lol) But shooting isn't what made Rondo great in the first place anyway. Rondo's excellent at penetration, finishing around the rim, defense, and getting dimes. That's how he was able to become one of the top 2-5 pg (possibly #1 when CP3 was injured most of season) when he was healthy.

I've never seen a top2-5 PG whose team actually functions better without him (on/off, record with and without Rondo last season). He blocks ball movement by holding it for almost the entire possession, "creating" contested 20-footers for his teammates and not punishing defenses for sagging off him on a consistent basis. As for his defense, he is an above average defender when he wants to be, but most of the time he prefers to gamble for steals in passing lanes instead of playing sound defense. Constant gambling for steals does not make you a good defender (Iverson says hi).

Still doesn't change the fact that Rondo has (had?) a jumpshot in those areas and has above average FG% doing it.

I guess it doesn't, but teams still welcome that above average FG% with open arms - low volume, only shoots if he's super wide open. Not a serious threat.

'Pieces don't fit together' - this is too oft used excuse for the sucky individual performance. But players like Anthony Davis/Ryan Anderson excels regardless the players that surround him. There's no justification for Jrue's suckiness in his development so far in his career. He was an all star ffs which is a wonder btw.

Neither Davis nor Anderson are tasked with running the offense and creating off the dribble though. It's easier to excel when you're a catch-and-shoot guy like Anderson whose only job is to stand at the 3-point line, wait for a pass and hit the open shot (which he has been proficient at and I'm not trying to negate it).

Now that I looked at Jrue's numbers, he isn't nearly as bad as you're saying. 14/4/8 with above average defense and above average 3-point shooting is not really something to bitch about. His TS% is - like always - hurt by his lack of visits at the free throw line but the Pelicans have a top10 offense with Jrue having an undeniable impact on it, proved by his offensive on/off of +4.2. If he's better at actually getting his team to produce on the offensive end than one of the top2-5 PGs in the league, that's gotta stand for something, right? Even if it means less APG and apparently "stinking". Turns out I was right about blaming the Sixers' offensive woes from last year on Collins and not on Holiday.

[NovU]

I've never seen a top2-5 PG whose team actually functions better without him (on/off, record with and without Rondo last season). He blocks ball movement by holding it for almost the entire possession, "creating" contested 20-footers for his teammates and not punishing defenses for sagging off him on a consistent basis. As for his defense, he is an above average defender when he wants to be, but most of the time he prefers to gamble for steals in passing lanes instead of playing sound defense. Constant gambling for steals does not make you a good defender (Iverson says hi).

Rondo played handful of games last season. ON/OFF stats are obviously misleading if you want to draw entire picture out of it. He barely played for 1/3 the season. We get a complete different picture btw if we go by data year before that (& even better in year before that).

I guess it doesn't, but teams still welcome that above average FG% with open arms - low volume, only shoots if he's super wide open. Not a serious threat.

It's obvious Rondo's not a threat as a volume shooter (which Jrue is, a poor volume shooter, sucks to play alongside him when you're also a volume shooter like Eric Gordon). It hurts less when you are a poor shooter but takes less dumb shots and stick to what you're good at.

[SoF'nAwesome]

At this point, it's pretty much like the MVP race. It would be highly unlikely for Oladipo to not win the Rookie Of The Year.

[Spree#8]

Rondo played handful of games last season. ON/OFF stats are obviously misleading if you want to draw entire picture out of it. He barely played for 1/3 the season. We get a complete different picture btw if we go by data year before that (& even better in year before that).

The picture also says the Celtics were a below average offensive team in each of those seasons (falling as low as 27th once!) despite having several great offensive players and spacing. Show me another top 2-5 PG who leads below average offenses year by year while having good offensive teammates. Paul regularly leads elite offenses whenever he's healthy enough and his support is up to par. Deron in Utah was top10 every season but his rookie campaign. Nash led some of the best offenses of all time in Phoenix. Hell, Nash even led the 11-12 Suns to the 9th best offense in the league while being 37 years old and having Marcin Gortat as his sidekick. Parker's Spurs are a top10 offense regularly. Westbrook gets a ton of shit for being a chucker and all that, but the Thunder have always been a top5 offense since 10-11. Why can they all make their teams efficient on the offensive end as the primary ball handlers and facilitators, but Rondo cannot?

Jrue is, a poor volume shooter, sucks to play alongside him when you're also a volume shooter like Eric Gordon

His percentages from the field are decent at least, he's an above average shooter and I highly doubt you see people defending him on the perimeter by standing in the paint. His TS% is hurt by his inability to draw fouls, like I already said. Gordon's struggles began much earlier than Jrue's arrival, so don't know how you can blame him for it. Especially since Jrue's team is actually efficient on the offensive end. By the way, Eric Gordon takes almost 15 shots per 36 minutes, so I'm not sure what exactly is Jrue doing to him? Even if it's something terrible, he still leads a pretty mediocre roster to a top10 offense, so I'll take it.

It hurts less when you are a poor shooter but takes less dumb shots and stick to what you're good at.

It hurts when you're afraid to shoot because people will sag off, clog the paint and make scoring more difficult for everybody else (or go double someone who is actually a threat), which will allow you to "stick to what you're good at" - in Rondo's case, that would be dribbling out most of the shot clock and then passing to somebody for a contested 20-footer, because that's the only shot he will "create" for you. Boston was one of the most mid-range heavy teams in the league, which explains why their offense sucked and questions Rondo's amazing skills as a creator. Alternatively, it could mean Doc Rivers is a terrible offensive coach, but right now his Clippers team with Paul in charge has the third best offense in the league, so that theory kinda goes to shit.

[NovU]

The picture also says the Celtics were a below average offensive team in each of those seasons (falling as low as 27th once!) despite having several great offensive players and spacing. Show me another top 2-5 PG who leads below average offenses year by year while having good offensive teammates. Paul regularly leads elite offenses whenever he's healthy enough and his support is up to par. Deron in Utah was top10 every season but his rookie campaign. Nash led some of the best offenses of all time in Phoenix. Hell, Nash even led the 11-12 Suns to the 9th best offense in the league while being 37 years old and having Marcin Gortat as his sidekick. Parker's Spurs are a top10 offense regularly. Westbrook gets a ton of shit for being a chucker and all that, but the Thunder have always been a top5 offense since 10-11. Why can they all make their teams efficient on the offensive end as the primary ball handlers and facilitators, but Rondo cannot?

It's typical to confuse between a production of a team system and a individual performance. You are putting way too much stock and emphasis into one player (in our case, it's point guard) for how the entire team is structured to play: roster build, coaching system, etc.

His percentages from the field are decent at least, he's an above average shooter and I highly doubt you see people defending him on the perimeter by standing in the paint. His TS% is hurt by his inability to draw fouls, like I already said.

He's an average shooter with inability to draw fouls. He doesn't excel in setting up his teammates. And he likes ball in his hands too much. There you go, 5th year fully developed all star.

Boston was one of the most mid-range heavy teams in the league, which explains why their offense sucked and questions Rondo's amazing skills as a creator.

Celtics' mid range game was not surprising when Pierce and Garnett weren't young anymore. That's how they simply operated, Pierce still likes to operate from one side of wing, and Garnett still wants the ball near top of the key for jumpshots in BKN. Unfortunately for the Nets, they don't have that player that can take it to the rim and finish at high percentage on their own. So they are really forced to take your so called contested jumpshots. It wasn't the case with Rondo and trio because of Rondo's ability to penetrate and finish on his own at high percentage. He created open looks for Garnett with nifty kick out passes. He isn't getting too many of those in BKN.

For every shot you take, you are taking it away from someone else. Neither Rondo and Jrue are a threat as a volume shooter. Difference is that Rondo plays to his strength very well. Jrue is a volume shooter but doesn't produce enough to be a threat.

[Spree#8]

It's typical to confuse between a production of a team system and a individual performance. You are putting way too much stock and emphasis into one player (in our case, it's point guard) for how the entire team is structured to play: roster build, coaching system, etc.

The Celtics' roster was built in a way that should ensure a very good offense. The coach is currently leading another team to a top3 offense in the league. The point guard we're talking about loves to hold the ball for almost the entire possession, so who else should be held responsible for the team's offensive production? I agree that the teammates and coaching staff always need to be accounted for, but they don't seem to have been a problem in this case. And then there's also this tendency that great point guards usually run good/great offenses. The same way that the best rim protectors in the league usually lead the best defenses.

He's an average shooter with inability to draw fouls. He doesn't excel in setting up his teammates. And he likes ball in his hands too much. There you go, 5th year fully developed all star.

45% from mid range and 37% from downtown is above average in my opinion, especially when you consider that most of those shots are self-created and not set up by someone else like Anderson's. He sets up his teammates enough to have 8 assists per game and have his mediocre team facing injury problems to important rotation players all season in the top10 of best offensive teams in the NBA, something Rondo was never able to accomplish with a better roster. And it's pretty funny that you would knock Jrue for "liking the ball in his hands too much" while making the case for Rondo's greatness at the same time. Point guards tend to play with the ball in their hands a lot, yeah. Jrue will play off-ball if asked to by the coach, by the way (2011-12).

Celtics' mid range game was not surprising when Pierce and Garnett weren't young anymore. That's how they simply operated, Pierce still likes to operate from one side of wing, and Garnett still wants the ball near top of the key for jumpshots in BKN. Unfortunately for the Nets, they don't have that player that can take it to the rim and finish at high percentage on their own. So they are really forced to take your so called contested jumpshots.

Except Pierce was a very efficient scorer (TS north of 55%, sometimes even north of 60%), so was Ray Allen while Garnett would also break 55% TS for most of his seasons in Boston. You give a supposedly top2-5 PG in the league three really efficient, pretty high-volume scoring threats, two of them have to be closely guarded outside the 3-point line while the third is money from mid range, giving you great spacing. Result? Below average offense year in and year out, with the low point in 2012 as the 4th worst offensive team in the league. I don't get it.

Pierce's efficiency hasn't suffered at all, his TS% is actually slightly higher than the last 2 seasons in Boston with Rondo, with volume obviously going down. Allen hasn't missed a bit in his first season in Miami. A slight drop off this year, but he's 38 years old. Garnett has collapsed, I guess being old and shooting mid range jumpers all day will do that to you. He was productive after Rondo's injury last season (leading the Celtics to that winning streak along with Pierce, immediately after Rondo went down), so I don't see a link here either.

Rondo's finishing at the rim is decent, but not great. He usually hovers in the 55-60% range.

For every shot you take, you are taking it away from someone else. Neither Rondo and Jrue are a threat as a volume shooter. Difference is that Rondo plays to his strength very well. Jrue is a volume shooter but doesn't produce enough to be a threat.

There are 4 players on the Pelicans' roster not named Jrue Holiday who take over 10 shots per game (and Smith with 9.1). Jrue is only 5th in FGA per 36 minutes. Looks like a decent shot distribution to me. And you still don't want to acknowledge that whatever Holiday is doing is working surprisingly well for his team.

I guess your ideal point guard should be like Rondo and pass up open layups because he can just as well make someone else take a contested 20-footer instead of taking that shot away from him. His "strengths" cause defenses to ignore him and make limiting his teammates easier. Playing to his strengths prevents him from having lead a top10 offense once when other players getting mentioned in the "best PGs in the league" discussion manage to do it year after year after year. How is a sucker like Holiday managing it (with a weaker offensive team!) while Rondo can't? What exactly is stopping him if he's such an exceptional floor general?

[NovU]

...... I disagree to most of your points.

Jrue has his shiny spots on the floor and shoots good from there. But at the end of the day, it doesn't make him a better player. Rondo shoots better TS% and Jrue's been always an inefficient scorer. You still can't leave Rondo open as he does possess ability to knock down open long jumpers. In fact, when you close in, he'll blow you by for easy lay ups. Notice how you are saying Rondo's finishing at the rim is only decent while clamouring about Jrue's shooting ability. That's blasphemy. Rondo's finishing ability is excellent, most of it is unassisted. Look up who else belongs to the class as his peers. And you are simply looking at assist per game, not assist per TO ratio? Come on. Is he still amazing, lol.

So now everything is Rondo's fault when the Celtics struggled in offense? Notice his usage%? Sure he spends entire shot clock by himself, makes perfect sense. That in fact never happened. The Celtics liked to move the ball. With Pierce, Allen, KG, you had good reasons to. However where they suffered is with lack of young/energetic legs for easy points as the trio were aging rapidly. It wasn't Rondo's fault to be stuck playing set halfcourt basketball all the time. Btw BKN is vastly shittier offensive team from last season even with all those new options.

Jrue. Notice his usg% and where it's being used. Rubio still remains to be semi-effective despite his horrendous shooting % because he still can be effective in other areas and minimizes his weakness. Jrue. He stinks everywhere.

[Spree#8]

Jrue has his shiny spots on the floor and shoots good from there. But at the end of the day, it doesn't make him a better player. Rondo shoots better TS% and Jrue's been always an inefficient scorer.

Better by 0.5% with much lower usage and defenses sagging off him all the time. Remarkable. An inefficient non-scorer is about as bad as it gets.

You still can't leave Rondo open as he does possess ability to knock down open long jumpers. In fact, when you close in, he'll blow you by for easy lay ups. Notice how you are saying Rondo's finishing at the rim is only decent while clamouring about Jrue's shooting ability. That's blasphemy. Rondo's finishing ability is excellent, most of it is unassisted. Look up who else belongs to the class as his peers.

Only when he's left super wide open, which people never do when guarding Holiday. That's why his percentages aren't necessarily better, but it does make playing defense against his team harder. Rondo will blow by me for layups which he finishes at a league average efficiency (Jrue is at 56% at the rim with only 24% of those shots being assisted - I guess he's excellent in your book as well). By the way, if Rondo gets by me I can also foul him and watch him brick free throws or sometimes he'll just pass up the open layup for a teammate's contested jumpshot which he doesn't want to take away from them.

And you are simply looking at assist per game, not assist per TO ratio? Come on. Is he still amazing, lol.

After how much Jrue improved as a playmaker last season, his AST/TO ratio is pretty similar to Rondo's. This season and the last, Holiday has a 37.1% AST rate and a 17.5% TOV rate. Rondo, from 2009-10 (his first All-Star year) to now has a 47.4% AST rate and a 21.9% TOV rate. That's an almost identical AST/TO ratio.

So now everything is Rondo's fault when the Celtics struggled in offense? Notice his usage%?

Who else do you think should be blamed? The trio of offensively efficient future HOFs or a coach whose team runs a very good offense elsewhere? And what does USG have to do with holding the ball? USG will only tell you how many possessions he ends.

Sure he spends entire shot clock by himself, makes perfect sense. That in fact never happened. The Celtics liked to move the ball. With Pierce, Allen, KG, you had good reasons to.

I know it doesn't make sense, but that's what was happening. Rondo dribbles out the clock, makes a pass to someone for a shitty shot and there's that. A perfect recipe for wasting great offensive potential of your team, which is exactly what happened - the Celtics sucked on offense. What's funny is that after Rondo got injured they started moving the ball around more with a 58-year old Pierce being the primary facilitator and they were much better off. Even Jeff Green came alive after vastly underperforming next to his amazing playmaker.

However where they suffered is with lack of young/energetic legs for easy points as the trio were aging rapidly. It wasn't Rondo's fault to be stuck playing set halfcourt basketball all the time.

Easy points or not, the big 3 was scoring quite a bit and scoring quite efficiently. Half court basketball doesn't equal a bad offense if the point guard (or whoever the primary ball handler is, in vast majority of cases - the point guard) is good at running a half court offense. Rondo's terrible shot coupled with his unwillingness to shoot makes for a major liability in a half court setting.

Btw BKN is vastly shittier offensive team from last season even with all those new options.

What do you mean by "all those new options"? The only sensible new option they have is Pierce. Terry apparently isn't much good anymore, Garnett is the walking dead player of the season and Kirilenko is mainly a defensive presence. Couple that with Deron inexplicably regressing, Lopez being injured and a questionable new coach and that could explain their offensive woes.

Jrue. Notice his usg% and where it's being used. Rubio still remains to be semi-effective despite his horrendous shooting % because he still can be effective in other areas and minimizes his weakness. Jrue. He stinks everywhere.

I don't get why is 23% USG so bad? It shows the defenders that he's not afraid to score and forces them to play honest defense, unlike Rondo. I see you're all about minimizing your weaknesses, even if it doesn't actually help your team at all. Let me ask for the third time: how does this stinker lead a top10 offense having a mediocre roster with plenty of injuries while the amazing playmaker who minimizes his weaknesses and doesn't take shots away from people, while himself being a great finisher and knocking down long jumpers easily lead a sucky offense all those years? While you're at it, could you also explain why other point guards who are thought to be one of the best in the business don't have such problems?

[NovU]

Jrue has his shiny spots on the floor and shoots good from there. But at the end of the day, it doesn't make him a better player. Rondo shoots better TS% and Jrue's been always an inefficient scorer.

Better by 0.5% with much lower usage and defenses sagging off him all the time. Remarkable. An inefficient non-scorer is about as bad as it gets.

Just like your argument that Jrue sucks at getting to the line, Rondo would be a vastly better TS% shooter if he shot better freethrows. I don't know what difference it makes though.

Only when he's left super wide open, which people never do when guarding Holiday. That's why his percentages aren't necessarily better, but it does make playing defense against his team harder. Rondo will blow by me for layups which he finishes at a league average efficiency (Jrue is at 56% at the rim with only 24% of those shots being assisted - I guess he's excellent in your book as well). By the way, if Rondo gets by me I can also foul him and watch him brick free throws or sometimes he'll just pass up the open layup for a teammate's contested jumpshot which he doesn't want to take away from them.

Goes to show Jrue's inability to breakdown the defense and get to the rim. This myth about it's harder to guard Jrue is absurd and stupid. It's as if saying Wade is easy to guard because he can't shoot like Kyle Korver. James Jones won the 3 pt contest, is he hard to guard? The reason LBJ and Wade are dangerous is because of their ability to get to the rim and finish strong. These guys collapse the defense, making 1 on 1 defense non relevant anymore. These players are expensive. It also opens up the floor for the rest.

Rondo even though takes less shots and uses up less usage, takes more shots around the rim and makes many more baskets around the rim than Jrue the allstar.

After how much Jrue improved as a playmaker last season, his AST/TO ratio is pretty similar to Rondo's. This season and the last, Holiday has a 37.1% AST rate and a 17.5% TOV rate. Rondo, from 2009-10 (his first All-Star year) to now has a 47.4% AST rate and a 21.9% TOV rate. That's an almost identical AST/TO ratio.

Now we can say Stockton's only slightly a better passer than either of them. Magnificent discovery!

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/playe ... /year/2013
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/playe ... /year/2012
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/playe ... /year/2011
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/playe ... /year/2010

Get back to me when Jrue lists as top 5 just for once in this league.

EDIT:

What do you mean by "all those new options"? The only sensible new option they have is Pierce. Terry apparently isn't much good anymore, Garnett is the walking dead player of the season and Kirilenko is mainly a defensive presence. Couple that with Deron inexplicably regressing, Lopez being injured and a questionable new coach and that could explain their offensive woes.

Just a post ago, you were raving how awesome of pieces the BOS had on offense for Rondo. In fact, those exact same bums were the primary offense that Rondo worked with, Terry/KG/Pierce just year before (unless you want to argue Bradley as a supreme offensive juggernaut). They are just year older but brought down BKN's offense down quite a bit. Why should I be explaining this shit to you is actually a wonder to me.

I don't get why is 23% USG so bad?

It is bad because you aren't doing much with those 23% - 26% usage. There's only so much usage to go around.

It shows the defenders that he's not afraid to score and forces them to play honest defense, unlike Rondo.

While you are at it, you need to show that you're capable of contributing to a team success with your usage. Rondo was a very nice key piece to the great Celtics team with his 20+ usage. Not being afraid, or forcing an honest defense, it's all phoney talk as Jrue doesn't get the result done.

I see you're all about minimizing your weaknesses, even if it doesn't actually help your team at all.

It does. Tyson Chandler has no offense, that's his weakness but he makes it easy for others to play around him because he can be Wilt Chamberlain level of efficiency. Same. Rondo's strength overpowers his weakness that he's a valuable player. Jrue? He stinks. His weakness >>> His strength.

Let me ask for the third time: how does this stinker lead a top10 offense having a mediocre roster with plenty of injuries while the amazing playmaker who minimizes his weaknesses and doesn't take shots away from people,

You do realize NOH was an average offensive team last season right? That's with their best player injured most of season. Now he's being heralded as the next David Robinson.

But of course, we can bestow all the magical powers to one single person, Jrue Holyshit.

[Spree#8]

Just like your argument that Jrue sucks at getting to the line, Rondo would be a vastly better TS% shooter if he shot better freethrows. I don't know what difference it makes though.

The difference is Jrue is a threat to score from the field (the only reason his TS is low is lack of free throws) and you can't bail yourself out by sending him to the line because he shoots 81%.

Goes to show Jrue's inability to breakdown the defense and get to the rim.

Already admitted he doesn't do it often enough, but he doesn't hurt the offense because he has to be guarded outside.

It's as if saying Wade is easy to guard because he can't shoot like Kyle Korver.

Apples and oranges. Wade can't shoot, but he's constantly looking to attack and therefore he demands the defense's attention, unlike Rondo who is thinking pass 1st, pass 2nd, pass 8th and shoot only if he really has to. It's easy to guard you if you're predictable. You could say Wade is also predictable in that he's always looking to get to the rim, but he has a variety of ways to do that. Because he doesn't have a reliable outside shot though, his game will suffer as he ages further and his athleticism fades away (or his legs fall off, whichever comes first). Korver can continue spacing the floor and being a huge 3-point threat until he's 40.

James Jones won the 3 pt contest, is he hard to guard?

It's not really important if he's hard to guard. The point is, he has to be guarded. Leaving him all alone like people leave Rondo would probably result in three points.

Rondo even though takes less shots and uses up less usage, takes more shots around the rim and makes many more baskets around the rim than Jrue the allstar.

And it's the other way around in mid range and 3-point range - Jrue helps improve the team's spacing, Rondo destroys it.

Get back to me when Jrue lists as top 5 just for once in this league.

Yep, like checking stats from Jrue's rookie season (when he was the youngest player in the entire league) or 2011-12 (when he wasn't even the primary ball handler) will tell us much. It's good to have an idea where you need to look.

I picked this season and last for Jrue for reasons listed in previous post. I picked Rondo from 2009-10 up to now, because that's when he made his first All-Star appearance and had super shiny APG numbers. The result is, I cut off the three first seasons of both Holiday and Rondo which is accidentally convenient - both still developing and also Jrue's 11-12 season when he was playing off-ball quite a bit.

In those years, Jrue's AST/TO ratio is 2.12. Rondo's is 2.16 (AST and TOV rates from my previous post). If in your opinion, a 0.04 difference in AST/TO ratio defines a difference between a great point guard and a stinky one, that's... interesting, to say the least.

No idea why you'd bring Stockton into this or what does he have to do with anything. Unlike Rondo, Stockton has led quite a few quality offenses.

Just a post ago, you were raving how awesome of pieces the BOS had on offense for Rondo. In fact, those exact same bums were the primary offense that Rondo worked with, Terry/KG/Pierce just year before (unless you want to argue Bradley as a supreme offensive juggernaut). They are just year older but brought down BKN's offense down quite a bit. Why should I be explaining this shit to you is actually a wonder to me.

What you still haven't explained is why they didn't miss a beat when Rondo went down for over half of last season. Well, actually they - and the entire team - got better without him, that's proved by their record. As for their drop off this year, ever heard of something called aging? And there's also other problems that the Nets are facing, mentioned in my previous post which you haven't responded to.

While you are at it, you need to show that you're capable of contributing to a team success with your usage. Rondo was a very nice key piece to the great Celtics team with his 20+ usage. Not being afraid, or forcing an honest defense, it's all phoney talk as Jrue doesn't get the result done.

An above average shooter from the field who can create his own shot, set up others on a Rondo-like AST/TO ratio and space the floor when someone else has the ball is a contributor. 23% is a pretty healthy usage level for a PG, because he's more turnover prone than any other position (provided he's the primary ball handler) and you're acting like he's monopolizing the offense for some reason.

Tyson Chandler has no offense, that's his weakness but he makes it easy for others to play around him because he can be Wilt Chamberlain level of efficiency.

How is it easy to play around him if the only time he steps outside of the paint on offense is to go set a screen? He's absolutely no danger further than 3 feet away from the rim and the defense knows it. In order to keep the spacing at least somewhat intact, the others have to be a jumpshooting threat, at least from mid range. Otherwise, it's just too easy for the defense to collapse to the paint and clog it completely.

The reason Chandler is in this league and paid handsomely is his contributions on defense and on the glass. On offense, you just have to live with him. His efficiency isn't such a big deal if it comes with miniscule usage and the only shots he does take are dunks, putback dunks and alley-oop dunks. His most valuable offensive contribution is the offensive rebounds he gets. Any player whose offensive repertoire doesn't go beyond a dunk is not a big threat, unless we're talking about prime Shaq or prime Wilt who just dominated physically and nobody could stop them from getting that dunk. If Chandler wasn't the defender and rebounder that he is, his efficient ass would be a minimum contract journeyman who is expendable and replaceable with plenty of others like him.

Rondo's strength overpowers his weakness that he's a valuable player.

Who is the only "top 2-5 PG" that consistently fails at doing his job that is ensuring the offense of his team scores efficiently on a regular basis.

You do realize NOH was an average offensive team last season right? That's with their best player injured most of season. Now he's being heralded as the next David Robinson.

Well, Anderson was healthy and they didn't have Tyreke Evans who is, like, an even worse version of Evan Turner and has far and away the biggest USG% on the team. That's bad for the offense and yet they've improved from average to top10. The only other significant change in their roster? Jrue.

[NovU]

This is just getting silly. All this talk over silly stinker Jrue and perennial allstar Rondo.

I won't get into this further but point out a few things. And no, in no way you will change my mind about Jrue and Rondo with all these fantasia/fictitious stories based on pretty much nonsensical support, lol.

1. Let me show you your own double standard. You are the guy that likes to go by ON/OFF stats especially on defense. Check out Tyson Chandler's stats.

2.

In those years, Jrue's AST/TO ratio is 2.12. Rondo's is 2.16 (AST and TOV rates from my previous post). If in your opinion, a 0.04 difference in AST/TO ratio defines a difference between a great point guard and a stinky one, that's... interesting, to say the least.

You can't be serious with this. Look up the definition of AST% and TOV%. How does this your own invention AST%/TO% tell us anything? For what purpose are you doing a mathematical division with these two numbers meaninglessly.

3.

No idea why you'd bring Stockton into this or what does he have to do with anything. Unlike Rondo, Stockton has led quite a few quality offenses.

It's because... Stockton becomes relevant if we go by your magnificent invention AST%/TO% (ala fake narratives you created in this silly discussions).


Is this a joke?